The Timeline of Gallifrey at, and since the end of the Time War

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Except the General and Androgar are looking at the No More Carving when the alarms sound indicating the Doctor is stealing the Moment.

I'm not sure it necessarily means that he is actually stealing the Moment at that very...err...moment. It just means they're being notified then that there has been a security breach. No one said the breach was still in progress, which would have nailed this down.

The thing is, when they discuss the High Council's plans there, it's said that they've "already failed" seeming to imply that the events of The End Of Time have already transpired. But in End itself, it is said that the Doctor already has the Moment. Of course, it's possible that we've got some timey-wimey Time Lord logic in play, I suppose. For instance, if the Visionary has foreseen the Doctor steal it, they might consider that as good as him already having done it. Or the General might be saying that if anything the High Council were going to do were going to work, we wouldn't still be here, ergo because Gallifrey is still in the line of fire anything they do must fail and its as good as having already happened. But that's all a bit speculative.

 

[Mr Soak]

I'm not sure it necessarily means that he is actually stealing the Moment at that very...err...moment. It just means they're being notified then that there has been a security breach. No one said the breach was still in progress, which would have nailed this down.

The thing is, when they discuss the High Council's plans there, it's said that they've "already failed" seeming to imply that the events of The End Of Time have already transpired. But in End itself, it is said that the Doctor already has the Moment. Of course, it's possible that we've got some timey-wimey Time Lord logic in play, I suppose. For instance, if the Visionary has foreseen the Doctor steal it, they might consider that as good as him already having done it. Or the General might be saying that if anything the High Council were going to do were going to work, we wouldn't still be here, ergo because Gallifrey is still in the line of fire anything they do must fail and its as good as having already happened. But that's all a bit speculative.

It's pretty clear from the scene in Day that the war council is notified pretty much immediately. They're shown a schematic of the archive with a moving marker representing the Doctor. They then head to the archive to see what was taken. After all, why would they delay notifying command of a security breach of their most potent arsenal? And why would the Doctor waste time in a danger zone once he's got the Moment? He'd decide what to do, leave his message then travel to the archive and break in, rather than travel to the archive, break in, travel back to Arcadia to leave the message then head off somewhere remote. It'd be the quickest and safest thing to do.

On top of that, there's no in-story suggestion that the Doctor does anything other than that.

As for the High Council/war council timing, I'm just putting it down to Moffat rewriting Davies to better service his story.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

It's pretty clear from the scene in Day that the war council is notified pretty much immediately. They're shown a schematic of the archive with a moving marker representing the Doctor. They then head to the archive to see what was taken. After all, why would they delay notifying command of a security breach of their most potent arsenal? And why would the Doctor waste time in a danger zone once he's got the Moment? He'd decide what to do, leave his message then travel to the archive and break in, rather than travel to the archive, break in, travel back to Arcadia to leave the message then head off somewhere remote. It'd be the quickest and safest thing to do.

On top of that, there's no in-story suggestion that the Doctor does anything other than that.

Ah, thanks. I haven't seen it for a while and only had the transcript to go by, which is why I asked in the first place.

 

[The Wormhole]

The thing is, when they discuss the High Council's plans there, it's said that they've "already failed" seeming to imply that the events of The End Of Time have already transpired.

Why is everyone taking the "already failed" line so literally? All the line really means is that the General has no faith in the High Council and that all they're actions and decisions so far have just made things worse, a clear failure on their part. That's all. I could storm around my workplace complaining management has completely screwed us over based solely on my prior experience with management. Then a few days later someone from corporate comes in and fires all the key managers. Just because I ranted a few days earlier about management does not mean I knew what was coming, or that it already happened from my perspective. It just means I expressed an opinion and coincidentally that opinion proved correct.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The Doctor sent the Confession Dial to Missy via the Sisterhood of Karn, knowing full well what it signifies. He also asked the Sisterhood to "look after the universe for me", which I took to mean he knew in advance that he will be in the Confession Dial for 2 billion years.

No it means he expected to possibly die soon at the hands of Davros, you know the arch nemesis he was going to meet.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

The confession dial stuff annoys me. Did the Doctor know he would end up inside that at the start of the series? Did he even know it contained the castle and tests?

The Timelords made it clear in the finale that they were behind the stuff inside the confession dial which confuses me. I thought the Doctor made this as it's his confession dial?

Also the dial would have released him had he just mentioned what they wanted so it was their trap...

 

[Romulan_spy]

The confession dial stuff annoys me. Did the Doctor know he would end up inside that at the start of the series? Did he even know it contained the castle and tests?

The Timelords made it clear in the finale that they were behind the stuff inside the confession dial which confuses me. I thought the Doctor made this as it's his confession dial?

Also the dial would have released him had he just mentioned what they wanted so it was their trap...

The way I reconcile things is that in the magician's apprentice, the Doctor makes the confession dial in case his meeting with Davros does not go well. At this point, he does not know about the castle or tests, he is using the dial in the traditional gallifreyan way, as a last will and testament if he dies permanently. Then, sometime later, the Time Lords hack the confession dial and turn it into a trap.

I am still not 100% sure why the Doctor was so adamant about keeping his secret about the Hybrid if as it turns out, the prophecy was so vague, that the Hybrid was nothing really to worry about. Why not just tell the Time Lords what he knows about the Hybrid and get out the easy way?

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

In "Hell Bent" Clara asked him that. He was punishing himself for letting her die.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

If he confessed his last secret he would have had no bargaining chip for extracting Clara.

 

[publiusr]

I like Rassilon being expelled--next up for him is the scenario from The Five Doctors. He wants to become the last of the immortals--and gets his wish, monkey paw style.

Maybe Rasalom should have changed his name to Molasar--shades of THE KEEP.

Instead of seeing stars die--I thought the light seen in this last episode was The Big Rip---and we are back to that crack again

 

[Mr Light]

I'm pretty sure the Rassilon in "End of Time" is officially one ressurected after his tomb/death/coma/sleep in "Five Doctors". The timeline on Gallifrey always appears to be linear. Have they ever mentioned or shown a Time Lord traveling into Gallifreyan past? There's the Three Doctors and Five Doctors but that's something the leadership is doing for a specific crisis that doesn't change the established past.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

The Capaldi doctor was there for the rescue of Gallifrey in Day of the Doctor.
He was also there when Clara Fond him as a boy in the barn, through he stayed in the TARDIS and it was a bootstrap paradox anyway.
Other than that? Not that I know of.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

If he confessed his last secret he would have had no bargaining chip for extracting Clara.

But yet that secret was nothing to even worry about. It was so vague as to mean nothing.

 

[Ithekro]

Fear is a strong motivation, even for the Time Lords. Fear of something they don't know that is said to stand in their ruins killing a billion billion souls.

 

[RoJoHen]

If he confessed his last secret he would have had no bargaining chip for extracting Clara.

But yet that secret was nothing to even worry about. It was so vague as to mean nothing.

But the Time Lords didn't know that. That was the point. The more he fought to keep the secret, the more the Time Lords would believe there was a secret to keep.

 

[Stevil2001]

The confession dial stuff annoys me. Did the Doctor know he would end up inside that at the start of the series? Did he even know it contained the castle and tests?

The Timelords made it clear in the finale that they were behind the stuff inside the confession dial which confuses me. I thought the Doctor made this as it's his confession dial?

Also the dial would have released him had he just mentioned what they wanted so it was their trap...

The way I reconcile things is that in the magician's apprentice, the Doctor makes the confession dial in case his meeting with Davros does not go well. At this point, he does not know about the castle or tests, he is using the dial in the traditional gallifreyan way, as a last will and testament if he dies permanently. Then, sometime later, the Time Lords hack the confession dial and turn it into a trap.

I think there are two confession dials. The one he makes before meeting Davros that he gives to Missy and then to Me, and the one the Time Lords force him into.

 

[Ithekro]

I figure the one he gave to Me was giving to the Time Lords so they could mess with the Doctor.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

I figure the one he gave to Me was giving to the Time Lords so they could mess with the Doctor.

Yes, that's why Me wanted it.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

The confession dial stuff annoys me. Did the Doctor know he would end up inside that at the start of the series? Did he even know it contained the castle and tests?

The Timelords made it clear in the finale that they were behind the stuff inside the confession dial which confuses me. I thought the Doctor made this as it's his confession dial?

Also the dial would have released him had he just mentioned what they wanted so it was their trap...

The way I reconcile things is that in the magician's apprentice, the Doctor makes the confession dial in case his meeting with Davros does not go well. At this point, he does not know about the castle or tests, he is using the dial in the traditional gallifreyan way, as a last will and testament if he dies permanently. Then, sometime later, the Time Lords hack the confession dial and turn it into a trap.

I think there are two confession dials. The one he makes before meeting Davros that he gives to Missy and then to Me, and the one the Time Lords force him into.

Me took *a* confession dial from the Doctor in Face The Raven. If there aren't two of them, then that one passed through other hands.

 

[Captrek]

What ever happened to the Ultimate Sanction? Rassillon was thwarted in TEOT when the link broke and he went back inside the time lock, but after Gallifrey is frozen in TDOTD and returns to the universe from its frozen moment, and they're outside the time lock, the option would still seem to be available. Did they change their minds?