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How many times did Kirk falsify his log?

...Of course, in stardate terms, he was aboard already. And using a character who was not central to "Space Seed"is actually a saving grace, as the immediate recollection of those events then isn't such a surefire thing.

But regarding "Space Seed" sidekicks, seen and unseen, if Kirk did falsify the logs relating to that misadventure, then what happened to the commendations to Uhura, Thule, Harrison and Spinelli? :devil:

Timo Saloniemi
 
...Of course, in stardate terms, he was aboard already. And using a character who was not central to "Space Seed"is actually a saving grace, as the immediate recollection of those events then isn't such a surefire thing.

But regarding "Space Seed" sidekicks, seen and unseen, if Kirk did falsify the logs relating to that misadventure, then what happened to the commendations to Uhura, Thule, Harrison and Spinelli? :devil:

Timo Saloniemi
Uhura and Scott are the only other choices, as Sulu isn't in the episode.
 
QUOTE=Greg Cox;11371326]
I'm more inclined to think that both the "Space Seed" incident and the top-secret Genesis Project were classified information, with the unfortunate result that Starfleet's left hand didn't know what its right hand did over a decade earlier.
[/QUOTE]

Khan was a criminal, and Kirk let him go.
Timo Saloniemi

Do I take it correctly than, that the rationale you are both advocating for the record of Space Seed being expunged is that Kirk made a disposition for Khan that wouldn't be seen by Starfleet as being a reasonable one given an assumed ability Kirk had to make a decision on his own prerogative, and that without question because of Khan's crimes and further intentions and his inherent dangerous nature, there should have been no question that Kirk simply should have remanded him and the rest of his band over to Starfleet? If not that, I still don't see the need for the whole incident to be logged as it took place.



But is Uhura reporting anything? Is the real Mendez in communications with Uhura, even though this in practice should put him in violation of the "no contact with Talos" rule? Believing in anything presented in that episode should be done with extreme care!"

Timo Saloniemi

I don't think that Roddenberry would countenance playing such trippy mind games on the viewers. Why couldn't Mendez on his own or with the approval of higher-ups, signed off on such a decision, especially as stated, that it involved Pike who made the report on the original incident (which contained what by the way, as from what Mendez claimed it seemed the whole story seemed to be a revelation) and left unstated a consideration of compassion being put into play given Pike's condition and future?

If everything was being manipulated by the Talosians from the outset, why would they have even bothered with all the machinations of Spock's plan and simply have had Kirk and the rest of the crew think they were heading to their next destination from the Starbase, when in fact they were en route the whole time to Talos? To give Spock and Kirk plausible cover? Why would they even care?
 
an assumed ability Kirk had to make a decision on his own prerogative
I very much doubt Kirk had the power to pardon Khan for being Khan, i.e. a war criminal on the run, supposedly still facing charges that will never hit a time limit of any sort (if we believe the ST:ID version of it, at any rate). He said he dropped the charges on Khan's attempt to hijack the Enterprise "under the authority vested in [him] by SF Command", but I sort of doubt he really had the power to do even that much.

Kirk would essentially be pardoning a criminal because he found him a nice guy at heart, sympathized with his crimes, and/or didn't want to take the risks involved in carrying him all the way back to the civilized world for a more standard punishment.

...Although the plots of "Dagger of the Mind" and "Whom Gods Destroy" plus tidbits in "Mudd's Women" or "Conscience of the King" actually establish that criminals in the 23rd century are merely victims of illness and get cured of being criminal. So Kirk would actually be implementing cruel and unusual punishment on Khan, on behalf of a society that denies the very concept of punishment! Whether too lenient or too harsh, Kirk is clearly out of line there in terms of pseudo-facts from other episodes and movies.

Why couldn't Mendez on his own or with the approval of higher-ups, signed off on such a decision
Because he was a criminal waiting for his own death penalty now, and not empowered to dish out any pardons? If that was really him at the other end of the communications, he had violated the rules regarding contact with Talos IV and would fry for it.

If everything was being manipulated by the Talosians from the outset, why would they have even bothered with all the machinations of Spock's plan and simply have had Kirk and the rest of the crew think they were heading to their next destination from the Starbase, when in fact they were en route the whole time to Talos? To give Spock and Kirk plausible cover? Why would they even care?
There is no version of the events that would be more plausible than that one anyway. Talosian powers were established to be immense in "The Cage" already, the only limitation apparently being range. But here range clearly extends to SB11 if not beyond, so nothing should be treated as real - and all the "bothering" involved is just alien weirdness, unnecessary for reaching the end goal (whatever that is).

Timo Saloniemi
 
an assumed ability Kirk had to make a decision on his own prerogative
I very much doubt Kirk had the power to pardon Khan for being Khan,...
Why couldn't Mendez on his own or with the approval of higher-ups, signed off on such a decision
Because he was a criminal waiting for his own death penalty now, and not empowered to dish out any pardons?
Timo Saloniemi
Pardon? What Kirk and Mendez did is not charge Khan and Spock, respectively, with the crimes that they have committed.
all charges and specifications in this matter have been dropped
No action contemplated against Spock
Pardons are dealt out to those who have been already been charged and convicted.
 
Pardon? What Kirk and Mendez did is not charge Khan and Spock, respectively, with the crimes that they have committed.
Pardon is the exact correct term there. Kirk cannot choose whether to charge Khan with the war crimes, because (in the ST:ID version, and if we trust that lying bastard Admiral Marcus) he is already convicted of those in absentia. Mendez cannot choose whether to charge himself, as he is already charged for violating GO7 and is automatically facing the death penalty, no judge or jury required (or permitted). And whatever this criminal mutters regarding other people is irrelevant...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Pardon? What Kirk and Mendez did is not charge Khan and Spock, respectively, with the crimes that they have committed.
Pardon is the exact correct term there. Kirk cannot choose whether to charge Khan with the war crimes,
What war crimes? None are mentioned in Space Seed. In fact, the historic Khan has the grudging admiration of the human senior staff:
SCOTT: I must confess, gentlemen. I've always held a sneaking admiration for this one.
KIRK: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen, in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring.
SPOCK: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is
KIRK: Mister Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless.
SCOTT: There were no massacres under his rule.
SPOCK: And as little freedom.
MCCOY: No wars until he was attacked.
SPOCK: Gentlemen.
KIRK: Mister Spock, you misunderstand us. We can be against him and admire him all at the same time.
I don't see a convicted war criminal garnishing that romanticism.
because (in the ST:ID version, and if we trust that lying bastard Admiral Marcus) he is already convicted of those in absentia.
Irrelevant. Different universe.*
Mendez cannot choose whether to charge himself,
Obviously. But he doesn't have to because:
General Order Seven prohibiting contact Talos Four is suspended this occasion.
Nothing in the abreviated message indicates that he made that decision about G07. He does, I think, make the decision to not prosecute Spock on the other offenses (i.e, assault, mutiny, etc.)

*(No lecturing on splitting timelines; First, I know the arguments and don't agree with them and, second, this is the wrong forum to discuss them.)
 
What war crimes? None are mentioned in Space Seed. In fact, the historic Khan has the grudging admiration of the human senior staff:
The thing is, ST:ID is explicit about the crimes, while "Space Seed" isn't in explicit contradiction. Kirk and pals in TOS agree that Khan ruled well in peacetime, and never attacked - but they admit that Khan fought once attacked by others. The war crimes could have taken place in those wars.

General Order Seven prohibiting contact Talos Four is suspended this occasion.

This just takes us to the question of who has the power to overturn these regulations - especially problematic when the only motivation for overturning them would come from having committed the relevant crime, i.e. having been in contact (if indirect) with the Talosian monsters.

And from the events of the episode, we learn that indirect contact is at least as damning as direct contact: Spock has brought the dangerous illusions all the way to SB11...

Irrelevant. Different universe.*
Okay, agree to disagree. In that universe, I win. ;)

Timo Saloniemi
 
The war crimes could have taken place in those wars.
Still, war crimes equals no admiration, in my book. Besides, according to Kirk and Spock, history doesn't record Khan being missing so no conviction in absentia, anyway.
General Order Seven prohibiting contact Talos Four is suspended this occasion.
This just takes us to the question of who has the power to overturn these regulations
Short answer: Starfleet Command.

One does wonder how things played out at SB11. Did the Talosians just transmit the same thing shown on the Enterprise and realMendez contact his superiors or did they create a fiction for him as well, complete with TalosKirk and TalosSpock (an illusion where Spock gets caught)? Another thought: Did realMendez start an official investigation and therefore would be judicial immune?
Irrelevant. Different universe.*
Okay, agree to disagree. In that universe, I win. ;)
Well, in that universe, Khan is a sociopath intent on "mass genocide of any being [he finds] to be less than superior." In the TOS universe, if you join Khan, he will "treat you well." ;)
 
I'm more inclined to think that both the "Space Seed" incident and the top-secret Genesis Project were classified information, with the unfortunate result that Starfleet's left hand didn't know what its right hand did over a decade earlier.

That is the most rational explanation.
 
Pardon is the exact correct term there. Kirk cannot choose whether to charge Khan with the war crimes,
What war crimes? None are mentioned in Space Seed.

Even without STID explicitly mentioning Khan's crimes, there's no doubt they happened. Somebody like Khan is never a "good" ruler. Dictatorship is always tyranny. And besides, look at how Khan pretty much beat Marla McGivers into submission, and tried to kill everyone on the Enterprise (both in TOS and STID!). If Khan is capable of something like that in isolated circumstances, there'd be no end to the horrors he would commit when actually in control of entire nations.

What we are seeing in "Space Seed" (the characters expressing admiration) was probably the result of Khan and his ilk ruthlessly containing the spread of any information that would run counter to their own propaganda (that they were "good" rulers). I'm sure that when Khan and all the rest of them were in power on Earth, they never allowed any of that information to get out. They would never have allowed the crimes that they committed to become public knowledge; the censorship and doublethink they surely employed would be almost Orwellian in nature.

I'm sure that for those nations which weren't involved in the Eugenics Wars (like the USA and Canada), they'd have had a hell of a time trying to find out what really happened in nations that Khan's group controlled. Sending in spies would be useless, and any enemy nation would have a strict media blackout. That may be another reason why we see otherwise rational people on the Enterprise expressing admiration for Khan - that's the "fragmentary" records rearing their ugly head again.
 
^^ The supermen were defeated. When you are defeated the victors find out about your Andersonvilles, your Hashima islands, and your Aushwitzes. :p

But, even if Khan were a convicted war criminal in the TOS universe, Kirk might not be under any legal obligation to act, the supposed conviction happening two centuries earlier and under a different judicial authority.
 
Why couldn't Mendez on his own or with the approval of higher-ups, signed off on such a decision
Because he was a criminal waiting for his own death penalty

now, and not empowered to dish out any pardons? If that was really him at the other end of the communications, he had violated the rules regarding contact with Talos IV and would fry for it.Timo Saloniemi[/QUOTE

Well, if he was compelled to watch because, like on Enterprise, there was no way of blocking their transmission, what would he do, run around his office, or wherever the images were being shown, with his eyes closed and yelling nanny nanny boo boo? I would think that it would be reasonable that as soon as he understood what he was viewing, he would have contacted his superiors for guidance and apparently, in this instance, the sanction to observe the entire story. Do we really know what the entirety of the prohibition regarding Talos was? I may simply not be recalling, but was it limited to the obvious of not visiting the planet, but also not having any contact whatsoever, whether totally unbidden or not?

I guess it would be more than reasonable to accept that Pike's report on the incident was unexpurgated due to the inherent danger another ship would be placed in given similar means taken to lure it there. But were all the details of that report in the General Order itself and who was privvy to actually reading it? Obviously Kirk hadn't and just knew the penalty for its violation. But if a flag officer, even just a commodore, could and would consequently already know, at the least what the general thrust of the event was about, why would seeing what was certainly a rendition beyond the ability of Enterprise to have recorded, but essentially only filled in some specific details, would it be clear that his "transgression" was equivalent to underlings who knew nothing of the events?
 
Besides, according to Kirk and Spock, history doesn't record Khan being missing so no conviction in absentia, anyway.

That'd depend on which came first: the conviction, or the decision that Khan must be dead even when no body can be presented. Nobody convicted Hitler of anything, but a couple of other Nazis got charged even though missing and in fact dead at the time.

OTOH, all sorts of kangaroo courts around the world have been convicting, say, US political and military leaders for their Vietnam war crimes. Might well be Kirk didn't agree with the folks who accused Khan, because ShatnerKirk held opposite political views, or considered the old political views antiquated and irrelevant - but PineKirk was much less informed on the issue.

One does wonder how things played out at SB11.

Good question. Things must have started going the Talosian way either when Spock heard of the Pike thing and contacted Talos for telepathic help, or when Talos heard of the Pike thing and reached out for Spock. (At the latest, that is - perhaps a number of Talosians snuck aboard the Enterprise in "The Cage" already, and did all sorts of other things we never got to see, because it didn't concern our heroes and because their telepathy kept everybody from finding out anyway.)

Whichever way we look at it, the Talosians are already doing so much that logically they should be running the whole show - even Starfleet Command would be but helpless puppets to them. The wholly academic question then becomes, does anybody realize this but is helpless to act, or is everybody blissfully deceived...?

Somebody like Khan is never a "good" ruler. Dictatorship is always tyranny.

But the Kims of North Korea, say, are not guilty of war crimes. It takes a war to achieve that!

I'm sure that when Khan and all the rest of them were in power on Earth, they never allowed any of that information to get out.

But then they were defeated and gone. The people who defeated them would have it in their interests to establish and/or invent a criminal record for Khan, and ASAP.

Unless, of course, they were too deep in it themselves. Surely the Augment Project had its masters and clients separately from the products. For all we know, each and every side in that conflict had their own household Augment, right till the bitter end (and quite possibly Paperclipped on well beyond the end, too).

the "fragmentary" records

Records of the era are so detailed in every other instance of Trek that it's probably best to assume that only shipping records were fragmentary. And that carries on till the next century as per "Up the Long Ladder".

if he was compelled to watch, what would he do

Try and dodge the death penalty. Which his colleagues would be obligated to dish out on him anyway: there's no defense of "innocence" on this particular offense. Rather, those exposed to Talos are fatally infected and must be disposed of, even if the terminology to achieve that is legal rather than medical...

Do we really know what the entirety of the prohibition regarding Talos was?

We know the regulation keeps the cause completely secret, for obvious reasons - the secret is held by "Fleet Command", and a separate Top Secret document is presented to those in the need to know in case such a need emerges, but even that one reveals little.

But supposedly "every captain" knows the relevant bits: " no vessel under any condition, emergency or otherwise, is to visit Talos Four" and " to do so is the only death penalty left on our books". If it's that secretive, it's unlikely there would be more text to GO7...

Of course, the actual General Order is probably far more general and deals with generic planets and their quarantine regulations - it's just that GO7 applies among others to the Talosian case and in that particular case activates the death penalty option. All starship skippers no doubt idly speculate about this all, trying to divine the specifics from the general context - but they fail.

But were all the details of that report in the General Order itself and who was privvy to actually reading it?

We see the actual report text when Mendez claims it's within his authority to open a "For the eyes of Starfleet Command only" file. Since there's nothing in there but Pike's recommendation to stay the hell out of Talos, it surely follows that GO7 itself contains even less.

if a flag officer, even just a commodore, could and would consequently already know, at the least what the general thrust of the event was about

Mendez never admits to knowing, despite feeling qualified to open the report/recommendation file. Even in the shuttle he clearly indicates he cannot fathom what might be found on Talos IV. Is that pretense? Cry "Confusion!" and let slip the cats of speculation...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Besides, according to Kirk and Spock, history doesn't record Khan being missing so no conviction in absentia, anyway.
the conviction,
You are still presupposing a conviction that is neither mentioned or hinted at in Space Seed and one that would nullify the admiration seen in the briefing room by our heroes.

"No massacres under his rule." No peacetime or wartime qualifiers there. Just under his rule.

And therefore no need for Kirk to be concerned about the legalities of a pardon that Khan didn't need in the first place.
I think I'm out.
 
if a flag officer, even just a commodore, could and would consequently already know, at the least what the general thrust of the event was about
Mendez never admits to knowing, despite feeling qualified to open the report/recommendation file. Even in the shuttle he clearly indicates he cannot fathom what might be found on Talos IV. Is that pretense? Cry "Confusion!" and let slip the cats of speculation...

Timo Saloniemi


Well, what's the relevance of what the Talosian's projection of Mendez says? Although no incentive was needed to prod Kirk to finding out the truth, but only in the process of court-martialing Spock, such a statement by FalseMendez may have been designed by the Talosians to whet Kirk's appetite further about what had happened on Talos, thereby making him more supportive of viewing the transmissions.
 
Besides, according to Kirk and Spock, history doesn't record Khan being missing so no conviction in absentia, anyway.
the conviction,
You are still presupposing a conviction that is neither mentioned or hinted at in Space Seed and one that would nullify the admiration seen in the briefing room by our heroes.

"No massacres under his rule." No peacetime or wartime qualifiers there. Just under his rule.

And therefore no need for Kirk to be concerned about the legalities of a pardon that Khan didn't need in the first place.
I think I'm out.

Subsequent iterations of Trek retconned the concerns about Khan away from his tyrannical rule, and more towards his genetically engineered status. If I look at Space Seed with that in mind, I could imagine Kirk falsifying his log to protect Khan and his cohorts from Federation persecution and bigotry, merely for the crime of being born in a test-tube.
 
In the TOS universe, if you join Khan, he will "treat you well." ;)

Tell that to the crew of Regula One. Nobody who is capable of that kind of horror, ever treats ANYONE well.

Yes, it's true that the Regula crew did NOT join Khan, but rather erased all their records of Project Genesis rather than give it to him. But that still doesn't mean Khan's subsequent butchering of the Regula crew is somehow justified. Nobody would want to admit that...would they?
 
Oh? I thought Khan killed those people for utilitarian purposes - torturing them for information, killing A to get information out of B, that sort of thing. That's justification enough for the character we saw established in "Space Seed", and still Kirk thought that this very character was fit to be let go. (Perhaps because his corresponding antics in the episode never actually resulted in any deaths - even though not for the lack of trying?)

Khan's portfolio probably has such things on bold print. He was a "just" ruler, but also a "strict" one, the difference apparently being that instead of barbaric massacres, he had civilized mass executions...

Really, it doesn't take much to be a "good guy" in relative terms in the company Khan was keeping in the 1990s. ShatnerKirk may have had a perverted view of Khan, but he may well have had an even more biased view of the general era. I mean, the "20th century people were animals" bias of our TNG era heroes must have come from somewhere; it'd be odd for the TOS era to somehow skip that bias.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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