TOS Klingons vs John M.Ford's Klingons

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ You are just grasping at straws. There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that the events of ST:FC resulted in an alternate timeline, or that the events of Cochrane's warp flight ever proceeded any differently than what we saw. Until we hear differently, it's safe to assume that FC was a predestination paradox - i.e. that it was ALWAYS supposed to happen exactly like we saw. There never was an 'original' flight that had Cochrane flying with crewmembers other than Riker and LaForge; they were always part of history.

Don't believe me? That is your right, of course. But you'll have to prove that negative.

Klingons got coffee from humans through trade or plunder, then bred it into a more potent strain (which they call qa'vIn) and started mixing it with alcohol, which they called ra'taj (Anglicized as "raktaj").

Wow. I wonder what that tasted like. I definitely like the idea of coffee mixed with booze.

 

[Tim Thomason]

So Darvin, being of Klingon origin, would probably see raktajino as a human thing. So he could've forgotten that its origins were partly Klingon and that it might not have caught on among humans yet in the 2260s.

When were humans supposed to have developed the Raktajino?
In the 23rd-century scenes, the 2260s Klingons kept trying to order them.

So somehow the Klingons of that time period were familiar with it. But maybe they perceived it as a human beverage, and expected it to exist at a station run by humans.

Well, according to production art, Raktajino was 100% Colombian, made on Earth, and imported by Harry Mudd. Perhaps Mudd made his name by trading with the Klingons, maybe against some sort of embargo. Perhaps Koloth's crew had purchased a large shipment of raktajino (raktaj cappucino) at some point, and expected to find more when they entered a Federation station for the first time.

And 100 years later, raktajino has grown popular quadrant-wide and now the origins of raktajino are confusing to some. 2260s Darvin (Gralmek) may have never even heard of raktajino, but gained a taste for it as a trader himself in the interim century.

It is neat though, since coffee is technically an Earth beverage with an Earth origin (the coffea plant), that "Klingon coffee" would just be a Klingon take on Earth coffee. Alot more believable than "Talaxian champagne" or "Vulcan port" (translation issues, I'm sure).

 

[Christopher]

The original history before the events of First Contact, Cochrane made the first warp test flight by himself without the assistance of the Enterprise crew. His entire ground crew was not killed off by the Borg.Therefore First Contact represents a change in the timeline.

A trivial one. The point was to cancel out the Borg's interference and restore the timeline to its original shape, and that effort was successful, aside from a few slight inconsistencies. It's no more a change in the timeline than "City on the Edge of Forever" was. Edith met Kirk, Spock and McCoy now, but she still died, so the travelers came back to the same 23rd century they'd originally left. The presence of a few different individuals was a slight enough alteration that it was absorbed within the flow of events and history resumed its original course.

The reason why the NX-01 was named Enterprise was because Deena told Cochrane the name of the ship through the telescope.

No. It isn't. That's your own manufactured headcanon, never once suggested anywhere in the actual shows or films. Surely the artwork on Archer's ready room wall makes it explicit that it was named for the historical ships named Enterprise, like the aircraft carrier and the space shuttle. That's made all but explicit in Archer and Shran's dialogue in "United." The intent of the creators of ENT was that Kirk's ship was named for Archer's.

In the original timeline there was obviously no NX shipped named Enterprise.

Again, you're mistaking story inconsistencies for time travel. You could just as well say that in the first 2/3 of TOS's first season there was "obviously" no Federation, because the Enterprise was explicitly called an Earth ship that served the United Earth Space Probe Agency. Or that in the second pilot, Kirk's middle initial was "obviously" R rather than T. Retcons are not alternate timelines. They're just the creators of a work of fiction refining their creation as they go.

It is neat though, since coffee is technically an Earth beverage with an Earth origin (the coffea plant), that "Klingon coffee" would just be a Klingon take on Earth coffee. Alot more believable than "Talaxian champagne" or "Vulcan port" (translation issues, I'm sure).

Or Saurian brandy, for that matter. I agree, it's a refreshing take, better than the assumption that the Klingons just have their own native equivalent of coffee beans that arose through parallel evolution.

 

[Marsden]

With all of the alternate timelines, parallel universes, and outright mistakes, you guys sure get touchy if someone posts something you don't like.

 

[Christopher]

^It's not about what I like, it's about the known facts regarding the intention of Enterprise's creators. Opinions are, well, a matter of opinion, but a misunderstanding of the facts is objectively wrong. Seeing ENT as a branched-off alternate history rather than a prequel to the Trek we know is a factual misunderstanding of what it was created to be. That's not about what anyone likes, it's just what is.

 

[Marsden]

Yes, these imaginary events in a fictional show aren't being remembered factually. And there's no proof, don't forget that one, like Indiana Jones is going to find a stone tablet with "proof" of the timeline.

 

[FormerLurker]

^ You are just grasping at straws. There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that the events of ST:FC resulted in an alternate timeline, or that the events of Cochrane's warp flight ever proceeded any differently than what we saw. Until we hear differently, it's safe to assume that FC was a predestination paradox - i.e. that it was ALWAYS supposed to happen exactly like we saw. There never was an 'original' flight that had Cochrane flying with crewmembers other than Riker and LaForge; they were always part of history.

Don't believe me? That is your right, of course. But you'll have to prove that negative.

Klingons got coffee from humans through trade or plunder, then bred it into a more potent strain (which they call qa'vIn) and started mixing it with alcohol, which they called ra'taj (Anglicized as "raktaj").

Wow. I wonder what that tasted like. I definitely like the idea of coffee mixed with booze.

Buzz Beer. (ducks)

 

[Christopher]

Yes, these imaginary events in a fictional show aren't being remembered factually.

As I stated quite clearly, I'm not talking about the fictional events, I'm talking in real-world terms about the intentions of the people who created those fictional events. There is a common misconception among many fans that Enterprise was intended to be an alternate timeline, but that is not what it was created to be.

Wow. I wonder what that tasted like. I definitely like the idea of coffee mixed with booze.

Perhaps something like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_coffee

 

[Tim Thomason]

It's an interesting thought experiment to try to imagine what the "real Enterprise" would've been like, without the Temporal Cold War, or (in Lt. Tyler's case), Borg incursion into the past. I think I read somewhere that the events of the Augment trilogy were meant to represent the "real" Klingon-Human first contact, as earlier contacts were all spurred on by the Temporal Cold War. I'm not sure if that was just a fan interpretation or an actual statement from a producer (Memory Alpha's page on Borderland doesn't mention it).

If the latter, if the "original Klingon First Contact" was centered around their takeover by a group of augments that eventually led to the Augment virus crisis some months later, then we can take it that Daniels and co did a fairly good job of keeping the timeline in check and eventually moving their pieces to where they need to be.

It's all moot though, because it'll never be addressed to anyone's satisfaction, and Star Trek has been an uncomprehensible ball of temporal craziness ever since the chronometers started running backwards in "The Naked Time" (No offense, Mr. Bennett!).

 

[Lt. Tyler]

Yeah its so easy to reconcile ENT with TOS and TNG that is why we have the Ferengi and the Borg in ENT. Romulan cloaking devices, FC with the Klingons NOT leading to decades of war, phase pistols instead of hand lasers, NX-01 looking like a TNG 24th century scout vessel or resembling a 22nd century Enterprise E, NO model of the NX-01 on the Enterprise D briefing lounge wall, in Trials and Tribble-ations the Temporal Star Fleet guys refer the Kirks Enterprise as the "first enterprise" oh and I love the early rank pips instead of gold braids or stripes, and the communicator way smaller than those used in The Cage and the TNG computer graphics. OK I'll stop there.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Wow. I wonder what that tasted like. I definitely like the idea of coffee mixed with booze.

Buzz Beer. (ducks)

Wow... Drew Carey was a Klingon!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah its so easy to reconcile ENT with TOS and TNG that is why we have the Ferengi and the Borg in ENT.

From the perspective of the NX-01 crew they didn't meet the Ferengi or the Borg. Those names would not be applied to those particular species until the 24th Century.

Romulan cloaking devices,

Yep, they screwed up.

FC with the Klingons NOT leading to decades of war,

Whose to say it didn't? A lot decades between the 22nd Century and the 23rd. Archer's actions could very well be what set the UFP and the Klingon Empire at each other's throat.

And who's to say Picard was referring to Terran-Klingon first contact. It could have been first contact between the Vulcans and the Klingons. The Prime Directive seems to originate with the Vulcans, anyway.

phase pistols instead of hand lasers,

Lasers were nixed by the second pilot. In universe there is no reason why both technologies couldn't co-exist. Think of them and Beta and VHS. In the end phase technology won the format wars.

NX-01 looking like a TNG 24th century scout vessel or resembling a 22nd century Enterprise E,

It has enough TOS homages to pass. And they weren't going to design a ship based on the 60's esthetics of TOS.

NO model of the NX-01 on the Enterprise D briefing lounge wall

Not every ship called Enterprise is there. Plus the show was made decades after TNG. There's no way a decade old piece of set decoration is going to dictate creative decisions on a professional production.

in Trials and Tribble-ations the Temporal Star Fleet guys refer the Kirks Enterprise as the "first enterprise"

Which is wrong according to TMP, which shows a previous space vessel called "Enterprise". At best Kirk's ship is the first Federation ship called "Enterprise".

oh and I love the early rank pips instead of gold braids or stripes,

Why would they have to be stripes or braids? Its 100 years before TOS. The 23rd Century Starfleet went from stripes to pins in just a few years.

and the communicator way smaller than those used in The Cage and the TNG computer graphics. OK I'll stop there.

In the age of cellphones they weren't going to use the bricks seen in the Cage in a show produced in the 21st Century.

It was a TV show. Decisions were made for reasons more important than appealing to minutia obsessed fans.

 

[Kor]

As disappointing as "Enterprise" was, the producers did not intend for it to be in some kind of alternate timeline, so it can't be rationalized out of existence with that reasoning. End of story.

Back to the topic of John M. Ford's Klingons... the "Great Lines" were somewhat different from what we saw of Klingon "Houses" in later Trek. It seems like the factional divisions in the John M. Ford universe were generational rather than between family lines.

The concept of "thought admirals" also doesn't quite fit with the Viking biker gang Klingons from later Trek, in my opinion, but it could work with the TOS Klingons, who actually had a respectable level of intelligence and organization.

Also, wasn't most of the information on Klingon society in "The Final Reflection" actually from a work of fiction within fiction, in the form of a historical novel being read by our heroes? If so, the accuracy of the whole thing is questionable.

Kor

 

[Terok Nor]

^It's not about what I like, it's about the known facts regarding the intention of Enterprise's creators. Opinions are, well, a matter of opinion, but a misunderstanding of the facts is objectively wrong. Seeing ENT as a branched-off alternate history rather than a prequel to the Trek we know is a factual misunderstanding of what it was created to be. That's not about what anyone likes, it's just what is.

To be honest Enterprise would make a lot more sense if it was an alternate timeline created by the Enterprise E and the Borg. Isn't that the basis of the JJ Abrams movies anyway? Spock and the Romulans created a new timeline separate from the regular one. It obviously wasn't the intention of Berman and Braga for Enterprise to be in a different reality to the other shows but it works for me in retrospect. I don't really care either way. I didn't like the show so I couldn't care less if it's canon or not since I'm unlikely to watch it again.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

It's an interesting thought experiment to try to imagine what the "real Enterprise" would've been like, without the Temporal Cold War, or (in Lt. Tyler's case), Borg incursion into the past. I think I read somewhere that the events of the Augment trilogy were meant to represent the "real" Klingon-Human first contact, as earlier contacts were all spurred on by the Temporal Cold War.

I would think either Marauders or Judgement would qualify since niether one of those involved the Temporal Cold War.

Plus I believe the events of Judgement are similar to how the 80s novels described Federation/Klingon first contact.

 

[Timo]

Most of the "grievances" above sound like pretty petty matters of opinion, coming nowhere near the concept of "timeline contradiction". But the Klingon thing seems to be a pure misunderstanding.

Picard in "First Contact" did not describe events that could be easily associated with ENT. His contact was "centuries ago", and 2150s just barely cuts it. Plus, Picard says Klingon contact resulted in the Prime Directive approach of first spying, only then contacting - but this doctrine is already in force in ENT, just as it could and should. It's a Vulcan doctrine - and the disastrous contact between Klingons and Vulcans may well have been the reason.

Now, ENT and Klingons is interesting mostly in the sense that ENT Klingons are similar to TNG Klingons. Did the society flip back and forth, briefly becoming "TOS-like" before reverting back to the norm?

I could see the society embracing Kahlessian values for comfort when the Empire is weak, the warriors are restless, and an honor code is needed to control the masses. When the Empire enters a winning streak, though, all that is cast aside and only victory matters. And in TOS, the Empire clearly was doing well, acting as a credible arch-enemy for the Federation, while in TNG the Feds were dominant and in ENT there was no obvious parrying partner for the Empire.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Drone]

^ You are just grasping at straws. There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that the events of ST:FC resulted in an alternate timeline, or that the events of Cochrane's warp flight ever proceeded any differently than what we saw. Until we hear differently, it's safe to assume that FC was a predestination paradox - i.e. that it was ALWAYS supposed to happen exactly like we saw. There never was an 'original' flight that had Cochrane flying with crewmembers other than Riker and LaForge; they were always part of history.

Don't believe me? That is your right, of course. But you'll have to prove that negative

Doesn't Seven pretty much validate that in her review session with Dukane dealing with paradoxes in Relativity?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Yes, I believe she did.

 

[publiusr]

I love Ford's depictions of Klingons the best.

When I first saw the ridge look--I just thought that some radioactive war attempt misfired, and they all mutated. (an early Praxis deal)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I liked The Final Reflection very much, although I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the rules of the game the Klingons were playing....