paradox of the Trenzalore grave

[Scotchy]

Who is packed with paradoxes. It's similar to the Terminator franchise - they're fighting a time war so each iteration will be different as the two factions struggle against each other, influencing events.
If it makes you feel better, you can think of it in terms of diverging parallel realities that he intersects using the tardis.
Another possible similarity would be the the idea that the technological singularity of Skynet is considered inevitable in Terminator, his grave at Trenzalore could be inevitable as well, just from different circumstances yet to be shown.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Who is packed with paradoxes. It's similar to the Terminator franchise - they're fighting a time war so each iteration will be different as the two factions struggle against each other, influencing events.
If it makes you feel better, you can think of it in terms of diverging parallel realities that he intersects using the tardis.
Another possible similarity would be the the idea that the technological singularity of Skynet is considered inevitable in Terminator, his grave at Trenzalore could be inevitable as well, just from different circumstances yet to be shown.

Only in the Terminator universe you can build a time machine using 1970s parts...

 

[Marsden]

Well, the Doctor is not eternal, he will die sometime, and he's been from the begining of the universe to it's end several times, so surely he was adventuring around before the year of his birth and after the occasion of his death. Also, because of time traveling, the year of his death may even occur before his birth. The fact his grave is there doesn't mean he's dead at this point in his timeline, just that's where it finally ends.

Maybe Time of the Doctor confuses it because it seems like this is his final death, but while that wasn't, it doesn't mean he won't eventually die. And so far, Trenzalore seems to be the planet he's spent the most time on, even more than Earth. If he was only around 1100 or so and spent 900 years there, that's almost half of his lifetime. Maybe that's a consideration of the placement of his grave, but then if he lives at least another few thousand years, then that would be irrelevant.

I don't really think it's a paradox, unless they have some future episode where the Doctor is killed and stays killed and buried and it's not Trenzaolre.

 

[Skellington]

Well couldn't they go back there if they ever decide to kill the show off? Heroic death for the final story and we find out his name?

Sounds good, though I think the narrative in Name Of The Doctor and Time Of The Doctor was intended to convey that hie was destined to die in the latter. Also, it 's a little difficult to see how the final battle happens now that the crack is gone. Perhaps he returns to Trenzalore (as it's the planet on which he's spent more time than on any other) or perhaps he has it set up that he 'll be buried there and the battle didn't happen in the way the Great Intelligence seems to believe.

Also, a heroic death for the final episode would in no way provide a barrier to the franchise's continuation on TV. Given that Robin Hood and King Arthur are rebooted all the time, I don't see any real obstacle to that happening with Doctor Who. Not that it even require one, of course - Missy or some other time-travelling acquaintance could just learn about Trenzalore and decide not to put up with it.

Of course, there is still the matter of Clara saying she saw only eleven faces in the timestream (plus Hurt just after that), but I suppose that could be a result of the Great Intelligence already having partially rewritten his timeline by the time she entered it, or some limitation effect that meant both of their influences could only affect the past up to the point each entered.

Or maybe post-Eleven Doctors didn't need any help; or the GI had a limited number of splinters. The entire concept doesn't conform to logic even from the off, anyway.

 

[DWF]

Who is packed with paradoxes. It's similar to the Terminator franchise - they're fighting a time war so each iteration will be different as the two factions struggle against each other, influencing events.
If it makes you feel better, you can think of it in terms of diverging parallel realities that he intersects using the tardis.
Another possible similarity would be the the idea that the technological singularity of Skynet is considered inevitable in Terminator, his grave at Trenzalore could be inevitable as well, just from different circumstances yet to be shown.

Only in the Terminator universe you can build a time machine using 1970s parts...

Well Doc. Brown could do that too.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Who is packed with paradoxes. It's similar to the Terminator franchise - they're fighting a time war so each iteration will be different as the two factions struggle against each other, influencing events.
If it makes you feel better, you can think of it in terms of diverging parallel realities that he intersects using the tardis.
Another possible similarity would be the the idea that the technological singularity of Skynet is considered inevitable in Terminator, his grave at Trenzalore could be inevitable as well, just from different circumstances yet to be shown.

Only in the Terminator universe you can build a time machine using 1970s parts...

Well Doc. Brown could do that too.

Yeah true...

 

[TommyR01D]

I wish that were the case, but the appearence of the Smith-era TARDIS interior kinda spoils it, at least plausibly. I'd have loved it if for that scene, the TARDIS interior was the white room with the roundels, but then, there wouldn't be an urgency about the fact that this this Doctor's end, and not some future Doctor's.

Similar problems occur with River Song's sonic screwdriver.

The TARDIS assumes the interior most fitting to whichever incarnation is inside, or tries to. Remember how Tennant, Hurt, and Smith all walked in and it glitched through all three of their console rooms before stabilizing on the most recent one?

So why didn't that happen with Troughton in The Three Doctors ("I see you've been doing the TARDIS up a bit. I don't like it.") or Hurndall in The Five Doctors ("Ah, so there are five of me now!")?

 

[The Wormhole]

The TARDIS assumes the interior most fitting to whichever incarnation is inside, or tries to. Remember how Tennant, Hurt, and Smith all walked in and it glitched through all three of their console rooms before stabilizing on the most recent one?

So why didn't that happen with Troughton in The Three Doctors ("I see you've been doing the TARDIS up a bit. I don't like it.") or Hurndall in The Five Doctors ("Ah, so there are five of me now!")?

-Because they weren't written by Moffat.
-Because previous console rooms weren't kept in storage.
-The Five Doctors introduced a new console which needed to be shown off.

 

[Skellington]

^ And in TDOTD, there were three incarnations at once in the console room, one of whom was from three centuries in the future (as it was Ten's TARDIS). Also, the TARDIS may have gotten more doddery in its old age. Or maybe it was just showing the Doctors their favourite options. Or it hadn't had its morning coffee.

 

[Mr Soak]

Three Doctors walking into the TARDIS at once could cause it to be confused. In The Three Doctors, the Third Doctor was already in the TARDIS when the Second appeared. Same deal with The Five Doctors. Fifth, Tegan and Turlough were already in the TARDIS when First and Susan entered.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

So why didn't that happen with Troughton in The Three Doctors ("I see you've been doing the TARDIS up a bit. I don't like it.") or Hurndall in The Five Doctors ("Ah, so there are five of me now!")?

Because neither of them were the most recent incarnation present, I presume. (The real reason: the idea hadn't been invented yet and they didn't have the resources to show something like that on screen at the time, anyway.)

 

[Queen Mab]

Dear All,

Please see the quotes below. These people have it the nail on the head. The Doctor's Tomb WILL be on Trenzalore, at somepoint in the Doctor's future and at some point in the future or past of Trenzalore relative to the Siege on Christmas. Only if these events were NOT to happen would a Paradox be created.

The people on TARDIS Data Core and I would welcome your help in editing the revant articles to be evidence based.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Trenzalore
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Doctor

(I have done so, but they seems to get reverted by other users, without any reason given, though my edits are completely evidence based)

Please PM me if you can help me understand they protocols for Wikis or would like to make the changes.

It seems to me the same kind of "paradox loop" exists in TOTD when Clara implores the Time Lords to fix the Doctor's death. The Doctor not dying on Trenzalore means there's no grave on Trenzalore, which means NOTD never happens, which means the GI and Echo Clara never go back into the Doctor's timestream, which means The Snowmen never happens, which means The Doctor never tracks down the Impossible Girl, which means their whole relationship never happens, which means she's not there on Trenzalore to ask the Time Lords to change those events. Paradox loop. The timeline disintegrates.

Yes. Which would suggest this ISN'T a paradox at all.

That said, part of me wonders if the Doctor isn't done with Trenzalore. Maybe he is still destined to go back.

Yes, this would appear to be the case.

I have thought that all along. The blasted wasteland of Trenzalore in "Name" is nothing like the Christmas globe planet of "Time." "Time" ends with survivors on the planet, but "Name" shows us a planet that appears to be lifeless. It may be that the grave on Trenzalore was always for a post-Smith Doctor, and he will return again at some point in his life, probably not expecting to ever go back there.

Yes, it would appear he would go back there, or else future/past events of Trenzalore or past events of the Doctor will not have happened.. which would CREATE a paradox.

I have thought that all along. The blasted wasteland of Trenzalore in "Name" is nothing like the Christmas globe planet of "Time." "Time" ends with survivors on the planet, but "Name" shows us a planet that appears to be lifeless. It may be that the grave on Trenzalore was always for a post-Smith Doctor, and he will return again at some point in his life, probably not expecting to ever go back there.

Yes.

Well couldn't they go back there if they ever decide to kill the show off? Heroic death for the final story and we find out his name?

Because that was the question that can't be answered on Trenzalore. "Doctor Who?" The answer was his name..

Yes, they certainly could end the show that way. Either way. The show has shown the Doctor's tomb WILL at some point be there.

Well, the Doctor is not eternal, he will die sometime, and he's been from the begining of the universe to it's end several times, so surely he was adventuring around before the year of his birth and after the occasion of his death. Also, because of time traveling, the year of his death may even occur before his birth. The fact his grave is there doesn't mean he's dead at this point in his timeline, just that's where it finally ends.

Maybe Time of the Doctor confuses it because it seems like this is his final death, but while that wasn't, it doesn't mean he won't eventually die. And so far, Trenzalore seems to be the planet he's spent the most time on, even more than Earth. If he was only around 1100 or so and spent 900 years there, that's almost half of his lifetime. Maybe that's a consideration of the placement of his grave, but then if he lives at least another few thousand years, then that would be irrelevant.

I don't really think it's a paradox, unless they have some future episode where the Doctor is killed and stays killed and buried and it's not Trenzaolre.

Exactly, at the moment its not a paradox.. The Doctor's Tomb will be on Trenzalore. It will only be a Paradox if he doesn't die there.

Couldn't the paradox be resolved if we assume it is the grave of the Doctor still to come in the future? If some future Doctor, say at the end of Capaldi's 12 regenerations, comes back to Trenzalore at a time before the events of The Name of the Doctor and really dies then the Doctor's grave will be there when Smith's Doctor arrives.

Yep.

 

[Photoman15]

No, it'll only be a paradox if his tomb isn't there. He could die anywhere/time as long as he's brought back to Trenzalore.

 

[Skellington]

^ This. So the Doctor can know about his grave without having a clue about the circumstances of his death. He can still wonder if the current adventure will be his last. And it can still be a pretty violent death, as there's no indication that it was an intact body.

 

[Queen Mab]

^ This. So the Doctor can know about his grave without having a clue about the circumstances of his death. He can still wonder if the current adventure will be his last. And it can still be a pretty violent death, as there's no indication that it was an intact body.

Yeah, from what I remember they don't say the death was on Trenzalore (please correct me with dialogue or etc from episodes if im wrong)

The point is that the Tomb is there.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Please see the quotes below. These people have it the nail on the head. The Doctor's Tomb WILL be on Trenzalore, at somepoint in the Doctor's future and at some point in the future or past of Trenzalore relative to the Siege on Christmas. Only if these events were NOT to happen would a Paradox be created.

That's certainly possible, but you're ignoring the line deliberately written into "The Time Of The Doctor" about "chang[ing] the future" that I quoted upthread. The intent of that episode clearly seems to be that the Time Lords obviated both the Doctor's fate and the resulting paradox, which is no deus ex machina, as it's long been established that this is an ability they have and such is reiterated there. Of course, that doesn't mean a writer can't turn that on its head at some point in the future, if desired.

 

[Count Zero]

Trenzalore isn't turned into a wasteland because the Doctor survives and defeats the people who wanted to destroy the planet. Time has been rewritten. Originally, there would have been no Doctor after Eleven and Eleven would have died on Trenzalore. But because of the interference by the Timelords and them handing the Doctor a new set of regenerations (presumably - it could also be just the one) this never happened.