Star Trek Economy

[T'Girl]

and questionable actions by Starfleet and The Federation Council (Insurrection wasn't just a fevered dream, right?)

In that case, I believe (whole heatedly) that the Federation Council's decision to form a partnership with the Sona to harvest the particles in orbit of a Federation planet was a correct decision. I also agree that the Baku (for their own safety) should have been removed, although I disagree to the way they were to be moved.

The Baku should have been openly approached by Starfleet and told to get their things together. Because they were leaving.

I can immediately remember only one adult man who spoke of being unemployed

What episode is the unemployed guy in? Not recalling it.

The episode was TNG Bloodlines (7x22), the man was Jason Vigo, who Picard briefly believed to be his son.

Picard: So, what do you do?
Vigo: I'm between jobs right now.
Picard: I see.

I think a world where people contribute to society because they believe it's worth doing (because it is) and it's rewarding (because it is) is more positive and more in keeping with Star Trek.

Certainly not " in keeping with Star Trek" given that we don't see people who contribute to society specifically doing so for free.

Now if Robert Picard and Joseph Sisko want to donate some of the profit from their lucrative businesses to charity, good for them.

Star Trek's Earth asks, "if you have physical wealth and others need it, why would you keep it?"

Except we see zero examples of this. Again, where was the homeless guy living in Robert Picard's nice big house? And let us add the homeless guy lounging around Joe Sisko's restaurant dining room, knowing Sisko has no option but to feed him any time the guy wants free food.

Again, you're looking at things in terms of someone taking. You're thinking in terms of "someone else" or government taking care of the homeless.

You obviously misunderstood. I spoke of society creating community shelters, not something orchestrated by someone else or the government. Were I a part of this society, it would be me (in part) that brought these sheltered environments into existence.

In Star Trek, you don't have to be responsible for someone being homeless to help them out.

This wasn't my position, rather I said that if you directly made someone else homeless this could confir upon you an obligation for their well being (at least for a time). Of course if you freely choose to help others you've had no previous connection with, great.

That another person is homeless and you have the resources to share is enough reason to help.

But not an obligation.

or because federal funding for space shuttle research got diverted to pork barrel projects

Umm, you are aware that the space shuttle itself was a pork barrel project ... right?

It was a "cost plus" government contract, the contractors could spend anything they wanted and they would get paid. Not all "pork barrel" projects are bad, some are fantastic.

(really helped the Lancer bomber contract too)

If people are good they don't need to be forced to be good people.

People are going to be the people that they are, the ultimate act of free will. A massive population should never be compelled to assume my characteristic, or yours. If you wish to advocate your personal assumptions of a "perfect world" to others that fine, that also is where it should stop.

If you need to threaten people with starvation or guns for your utopia to work, then I would seriously call into question its status as a utopia

I don't believe the Trek universe was ever referred to as "utopia" in canon, this is solely a creation of a few of the fans. Personally I think the Trek future is a materially comfortable one, but in no way a utopia.

A culture which fosters empathy, shuns greed, and praises folks contributing to the common good solves more problems with pats on the back than government can with guns.

Of course we've seen Humans with greed, and people with guns. Good honest people can perform good acts while still receiving financial compensation for their days work. You can assist your fellow man without inviting them into the home you establish through your own efforts.

One form of helping others who are down and out, is to point out that it was their own actions that result in their current predicament (if that was the case). This way they can change for the better.

.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The Baku should have been openly approached by Starfleet and told to get their things together. Because they were leaving.

Wait, when did the Baku settle on this planet? Because if it's before the Federation was formed -- Wow, Maquis part II all over again. Unless they came much later, then a different story.

I can immediately remember only one adult man who spoke of being unemployed and Picard responded to this information with a small degree of shock and disapproval.

What episode is the unemployed guy in? Not recalling it.

The episode was TNG Bloodlines (7x22), the man was Jason Vigo, who Picard briefly believed to be his son.

You can also add The Survivors, about the elderly couple. The wife described her husband as a "starving student" when they first met, whatever that means in Trek society. In fact:

RISHON: He was a starving student with this threadbare suit and mismatched shoes. I was travelling with my parents who did not like the way that he kept hanging around.

Now this is interesting. And makes no sense either, but very interesting.

You obviously misunderstood. I spoke of society creating community shelters, not something orchestrated by someone else or the government. Were I a part of this society, it would be me (in part) that brought these sheltered environments into existence.

Future humans seemed to have a big problem with the concept of shelters, as if they were outdated.

If you need to threaten people with starvation or guns for your utopia to work, then I would seriously call into question its status as a utopia

I don't believe the Trek universe was ever referred to as "utopia" in canon, this is solely a creation of a few of the fans. Personally I think the Trek future is a materially comfortable one, but in no way a utopia.

The various descriptions from various episodes, help picture the Federation/Earth as an utopia. Particularly early TNG.

Virtually no one gets sick
No one needs money
No racism or sexism or bigotry exists
No need or want anymore
Despair and hopelessness no longer exist
People are no longer affected by words or insults
Earth is often called a paradise
No poverty at all exists
No war or conflict at all
People work mainly to better themselves and the rest of humanity


And a few other statements about human behavior/society that give off this idea.

 

[T'Girl]

The various descriptions from various episodes, help picture the Federation/Earth as an utopia. Particularly early TNG.

Alright, then where do these vast armies of homeless people that VanVelding keeps referring to come into the picture?

 

[Nightdiamond]

^^ I haven't seen anything like that so far. Unless you want to use Kevin Uxbridge as an example.

Trek implies there are no homeless in its time, what with poverty, hopelessness and hunger done away with.

Now WHY that is, is almost another mystery. DS9's Past Tense claims when social problems are solved first, then things like that are eliminated.

In fact Past Tense explored this very topic.

 

[TheGoodNews]

Next up is a gift economy. A gives X to B, and B later remembers the favor and gives Y to A. That requires some mental bookkeeping, and it does not scale very well.

For a larger scaled environment a gift economy could include an open commons in which participants can contribute to or retrieve from rather giving directly to individuals.

 

[lpetrich]

Next up is a gift economy. A gives X to B, and B later remembers the favor and gives Y to A. That requires some mental bookkeeping, and it does not scale very well.

For a larger scaled environment a gift economy could include an open commons in which participants can contribute to or retrieve from rather giving directly to individuals.

I don't know what you might be thinking of.

A widely-distributed gift economy is easiest to implement with information instead of physical objects, because information can be much easier to copy. Thus, one can give without being deprived of one's original, and one can take while leaving the original still present. This is easily implemented for computer files across a computer network, like the Internet, because copying over it is usually dirt-cheap.

That may explain the success of many open-source and open-content projects. Projects like Linux and Wikipedia.

However, it may be difficult to repeat that success with physical objects.

 

[T'Girl]

Wait, when did the Baku settle on this planet?

When did it become a matter of first come first serve? A major medical discovery, the baku (who possessed warp) did nothing for centuries to spread the word, selfish bastards. The Federation would have made the medical potential availibe to multiple billions, not just 600.

Virtually no one gets sick
No one needs money
No racism or sexism or bigotry exists
No need or want anymore
Despair and hopelessness no longer exist
People are no longer affected by words or insults
Earth is often called a paradise
No poverty at all exists
No war or conflict at all
.

We see people getting sick regularly.
We do see money being used.
Where are the gays?
Vulcan are bigots toward humans.
Where are the gays?
The Neutral Zone show Humans being bigots towards other Humans.
Where are the gays?
When Worf is insulted verbally, Riker calls the Romulan defector a nasty word.
Where are the gays?
Near constant war, they just moved it off Earth.

Where are the gays? Or is that what they meant by "paradise?"
.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Wait, when did the Baku settle on this planet?

When did it become a matter of first come first serve? A major medical discovery, the baku (who possessed warp) did nothing for centuries to spread the word, selfish bastards. The Federation would have made the medical potential availibe to multiple billions, not just 600.

So does the Klingon empire have a right to attack the federation for not 'sharing' the major military breakthrough of Genesis?

Whether they were 'selfish' or not has absolutely nothing to do with who has the right to live on the planet. The absolute maximum the Federation had any right to do was to approach the Baku and negotiate access to the planet. And if they'd done so nicely, there probably wouldn't have been any problem at all.

Also, the movie completely failed to present the particles as an actual major medical breakthrough of the type you want it to be. The only thing it is shown to do is rejuvenate people and cure some birth defects (which were already treatable in the Federation, just not quite as spectacularly).

The movie also completely failed to establish whether the particles would even work outside the briar patch. The Baku stayed young for 300 years, but they were also constantly exposed to the particles. As far as canon shows, it seems that no one even stopped to ask whether harvesting the particles and giving everybody a pill every now and then would even be able to reproduce the effect. It also completely ignored the question of how a single harvest that rendered the planet instantly unproductive would ever provide enough particles to treat the entire Federation (dozens if not hundreds of worlds with millions if not billions of people each).

Not to mention: harvesting the particles didn't even need to make the planet uninhabitable, that was the result of the Sona insistence on rushing the job, which the Federation agreed to for no good reason whatsoever.

 

[T'Girl]

^ I disagree, YMMV.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Wait, when did the Baku settle on this planet?

When did it become a matter of first come first serve? A major medical discovery, the baku (who possessed warp) did nothing for centuries to spread the word, selfish bastards. The Federation would have made the medical potential availibe to multiple billions, not just 600.

Because the Federation wasn't founded until almost 100 years after the Baku settled on the planet. Which suggest they might have claimed this territory even after knowing it was already occupied.

In Picard's own words:

ANIJ: Who wouldn't be tempted by the promise of perpetual youth? ...I don't think so.
PICARD: You give me more credit than I deserve. Well, of course, I'm tempted. Who wouldn't be? ...But some of the darkest chapters in the history of my world involve the forced relocation of a small group of people to satisfy the demands of a large one.

Even their legal reasoning is shaky:

DOUGHERTY: I'm acting on orders from the Federation Council.
PICARD: How can there be an order to abandon the Prime Directive?
DOUGHERTY: The Prime Directive doesn't apply. These people are not indigenous to this planet. They were never meant to be immortal. We'll simply be restoring them to their natural evolution.

 

[T'Girl]

Because the Federation wasn't founded until almost 100 years after the Baku settled on the planet.

And the Federation was composed of over 150 Members, the Vulcans had been in space for thousands of years, maybe other Members as well. Picard did say that the planet was in Federation space.

Not surround by, in.

When the Baku migrate to the planet, which future Federation Member's territory was the planet in at that time.

 

[eyeresist]

The Federation is an opt-in organisation, so an entity is not subject to Federation policy unless it chooses to be so, even if it is technically "within" Federation territory. If the Baku planet had been claimed by one of the Federation's members the situation might be different, but there's no suggestion this is so.

 

[T'Girl]

... but there's no suggestion this is so.

One way or another, it's a Federation planet.

PICARD: A planet in Federation space.

DOUGHERTY: That's right. We have the planet.

 

[eyeresist]

... but there's no suggestion this is so.

One way or another, it's a Federation planet.

PICARD: A planet in Federation space.

DOUGHERTY: That's right. We have the planet.

No, they're actually disagreeing there. Picard is saying that the Federation has to be especially ethical with any planet in its territory, and Dougherty is saying, screw that, might makes right. The actual legal position of the planet is up in the air (so to speak), and the baddies try to stop Enterprise from contacting the Federation, so obviously they know their position is shaky.

I'm getting a weird desire to watch INS.

 

[T'Girl]

No, they're actually disagreeing there.

Picard and Dougherty do disagree on other matters, but when it come to whose planet it is they are in total agreement.

Given Picard's position concerning the Baku, if the planet wasn't in the Federation, Picard wouild have brought that point up to the Admiral.

Which he didn't.

.

 

[Stoo]

It's interesting reading threads like this how much T'Girl wants Trek to be something that it is not. Regularly looking for gaps into which to crowbar an interpretation that really doesn't fit. Like, Old Man Sisko never gets up in the morning and says "wow looking forward to a day of contributing for no financial reward!" so he probably is charging people after all! We once saw a penal colony so clearly it's reasonable to believe crime is still a massive problem. People are dicks to vulcans sometimes so earth's problems with bigotry probably aren't any better than todays.

The post-capitalist, post scarcity, more enlightened sort of thing might be utterly unworkable. Just like transporter beams and their loopy physics. But it's pretty clearly part of the show's intent. Part of what Trek is meant to be all about. If that troubles Libertarian sensibilities then I dunno, maybe Babylon 5 is more to your tastes. Or remind yourself it's all a super-optimistic fantasy that won't at all resemble the actual 24th century anyway.

 

[T'Girl]

me like star trek

 

[Nightdiamond]

Because the Federation wasn't founded until almost 100 years after the Baku settled on the planet.

And the Federation was composed of over 150 Members, the Vulcans had been in space for thousands of years, maybe other Members as well. Picard did say that the planet was in Federation space.

Not surround by, in.

When the Baku migrate to the planet, which future Federation Member's territory was the planet in at that time.

There are still big problems there. And a lot of it is technical language.

The Federation didn't even exist in any form when they settled the planet. Earth had just barely discovered warp.

And this alleged unamed member planet who owns the planet. So a member world with warp and sensors see this group settle on their planet, and after all this time and didn't say anything to them?

All we see is a human Starfleet officer and a member of the Sona. No mention of Fed member it belongs to.

This has the possibility to resemble the Native Americans/US situation. They were also inside the US, but they were also there long before the U.S was founded.

I say "possibility" because if it can be shown the Baku tresspassed on established Fed territory, then the Fed was right.

Otherwise it could be an example of the Federation simply claiming an area that already belonged to someone else.

Think it can't happen? Look up the episodes " Arena" and "Justice".

 

[TheGoodNews]

So how exactly do they set things up so that everyone is equal economically? I mean do you seize mansions and such from the uber wealthy and divy it up? This is never really explained.

It's the social ownership of the means of production rather than exclusive ownership (via private or state enterprise) which happens when production and distribution costs reach zero or near zero marginal cost due to advances in automation, analytics, logistics, etc. The former profit system withers away when the general public can provide for themselves for free or nearly free. We're seeing some of that happening now with the sharing economy and open source.

lpetrich wrote:
A widely-distributed gift economy is easiest to implement with information instead of physical objects, because information can be much easier to copy.

One could email the specs and send them to a 3D printer.

lpetrich wrote:
Thus, one can give without being deprived of one's original, and one can take while leaving the original still present. This is easily implemented for computer files across a computer network, like the Internet, because copying over it is usually dirt-cheap.

"Non-excludability and non-rivalry." Young Spock - Star Trek 2009

 

[Grendelsbayne]

No, they're actually disagreeing there.

Picard and Dougherty do disagree on other matters, but when it come to whose planet it is they are in total agreement.

Given Picard's position concerning the Baku, if the planet wasn't in the Federation, Picard wouild have brought that point up to the Admiral.

Which he didn't.

.

If the operation was fully and unimpeachably legal, the bad guys would've allowed the Enterprise to contact the Federation council unimpeded, because doing so wouldn't change anything. But they didn't.

The movie was poorly written and ambiguous in many places where it really shouldn't have been ambiguous. But one of the few things that is crystal clear is that the Baku have been living on that planet since before the Federation existed and have never been approached by anyone who claimed Federation ownership of that planet in that entire time.