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Fleet Admiral Cartwright was right

The Romulan Ambassador was explicitly named by Valeris during the mind-meld scene as being in on the conspiracy, with Cartwright and Chang, and he was present in the Federation President's office and at the Khitomer conference with shots focusing solely on him.

So, I wouldn't say that TUC forced the bilateral Cold War analogy so far as to neglect other powers besides the Federation and Klingons.
 
I'm not unsympathetic to the viewpoint expressed in the OP. It does seem to join the dots very effectively: UFP mothballs sections of their fleet, which results in the severely de-militarised Starfleet we saw in TNG, which in turn has ramifications when the Borg invade and then later when the Dominion War breaks out.

The key bit is:

CARTWRIGHT: [...] And if we dismantle the fleet, we'd be defenceless before an aggressive species with a foothold on our territory.

In theory, there's also a ripple effect into the alternative universe of Yesterday's Enterprise too. But for want of a nail, Starfleet either ends up in a long and bloody war with a re-energised Klingon aggressive force, or they don't. But either way, judging by how badly things are going against the alt!Klingons, it seems that alt!Starfleet were caught on the hop, unable to reinstate the fleet as quickly as their opponents.

In both scenarios it would seem Cartwright's fears about what might happen if Starfleet is completely demilitarized did, in fact, pan out very broadly as he described.....
 
I thought Cartwright called the Klingons an "Aggressor" species, rather than an "Aggressive" one. I never heard the 'V' at the end.
 
^ I watched this movie over and over again, ad nauseum, back when I used to think TUC was brilliant. I always heard "aggressive."

Kor
 
At the time of TUC perhaps only the KE and UFP were superpowers, other empires such as the RSE might only have been a major power. I'm fairly certain we had other major powers during the era was dominated by the cold war. But sometimes we overlook them simply because the cold war dominated that period.

But our views can be influenced by were we live, how did people say in China think about a warming of relations between the two powers?
 
If we go solely by TUC and ignore the rest of Trek, the Romulans were apparently buddies with the Federation, since their ambassador was allowed to sit in on diplomatic sessions between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, as well as secret Federation military briefings. :wtf:

Kor
 
If we go solely by TUC and ignore the rest of Trek, the Romulans were apparently buddies with the Federation, since their ambassador was allowed to sit in on diplomatic sessions between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, as well as secret Federation military briefings. :wtf:

Kor

Being buddies doesn't follow. Nominal allies perhaps; perhaps also in one or more tripartite treaties with the Federation and Klingon Empire, which could provide grounds for the Romulan Ambassador to be present during certain types of sessions if certain other parties are present.

What scenes with secret military briefings are you referring to? If it's the scenes with Colonel West, those were cut. Or are you talking about something else?
 
... UFP mothballs sections of their fleet, which results in the severely de-militarised Starfleet we saw in TNG...

What? Where was it ever spoken or referenced that Starfleet was any less armed or less capable of security in TNG than in Kirk's time? Check the Technical Manual, pal. Enterprise-D was armed to the teeth! And in MANY episodes the magnitudes by which Ent-D out-gunned its opponents was almost laughable.

If anything, defense R&D was less of a priority during the 80 years between TOS and TNG, but you make it sound like they turned Starfleet into a Greenpeace armada. 1701-D was not the Love Boat, and Picard was no pacifist.
 
I don't recall anybody suggesting dismantling the fleet.

Except for when they literally used those exact words or said something similar multiple times (see below).



SPOCK: The dismantling of our space stations and starbases along the Neutral Zone, an end to almost seventy years of unremitting hostility with the Klingons, which the Klingons can no longer afford.

MILITARY AIDE: Bill, are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet?

C in C: I'm sure that our exploration and scientific programs would be unaffected, Captain, but...

CARTWRIGHT: I must protest. To offer the Klingons a safe haven within Federation space is suicide. Klingons would become the alien trash of the galaxy. And if we dismantle the fleet, we'd be defenceless before an aggressive species with a foothold on our territory. The opportunity here is to bring them to their knees. Then we'll be in a far better position to dictate terms.


Let's read carefully, because the female Captain (aid) obviously did not listen to Spock. She ASKED if that meant mothballing Starfleet. Then Cartright interrupted before Bill could get his whole reply out. No one ever said or verified that Starfleet was going to be mothballed.

In actuality, why would any sane person even think that? Starfleet's primary purpose is exploration and scientific research; defense is only a secondary priority (since forever).

Besides, I think the most important part of that conversation has been left out of this debate. It's when everyone started to argue and give their opinions. That's when Bill packed up, stood up, ended the meeting, wished Kirk and crew God's speed, and left the room. Translation: That meeting was not a debate, it was a briefing. It was called so Bill could communicate to Kirk, his senior officers, and his commanding officer about the current situation and what was expected of them. That's it.

Starfleet Admirals and Captains don't make policy. They follow directives and orders (in this case to facilitate diplomatic initiatives negotiated by Ambassadors and elected officials). It doesn't matter what anyone in that room thought or said, and that scene is a bad source for trying to explain (or speculate about) the future state of Starfleet defense readiness (especially 80 years after that meeting took place).
 
... UFP mothballs sections of their fleet, which results in the severely de-militarised Starfleet we saw in TNG...

What? Where was it ever spoken or referenced that Starfleet was any less armed or less capable of security in TNG than in Kirk's time? Check the Technical Manual, pal. Enterprise-D was armed to the teeth! And in MANY episodes the magnitudes by which Ent-D out-gunned its opponents was almost laughable.

If anything, defense R&D was less of a priority during the 80 years between TOS and TNG, but you make it sound like they turned Starfleet into a Greenpeace armada. 1701-D was not the Love Boat, and Picard was no pacifist.

Theoretically. But Wolf 359 puts paid to the idea that Starfleet was in any sense ''battle ready'', and Starfleet suffered considerably during the Dominion War. One does get the impression that Kirk's Starfleet was much more ready to face such large scale threats, because they were in a constant state of 'Cold War' tension with the Klingons. Take that away and, yes, nobody is suggesting they turn into the Good Ship Enterprise. But there's definitely a shift in priorities. And it makes some sense that shift came about due to a lack of a long-term enemy...

... of course, ALL OF THIS fails to factor into account the retcon that Starfleet was in the middle of a protracted war with the Cardassians right throughout TNG's early period. :p
 
Cartwright was wrong war is never an option, the fleet wasn't dismantled and the Kitomer accords kept the peace between the Klingons and the Federation for some 80 odd years.
 
...Wolf 359 puts paid to the idea that Starfleet was in any sense ''battle ready'', and Starfleet suffered considerably during the Dominion War. One does get the impression that Kirk's Starfleet was much more ready to face such large scale threats, because they were in a constant state of 'Cold War' tension with the Klingons... there's definitely a shift in priorities. And it makes some sense that shift came about due to a lack of a long-term enemy...

I agree, Kirk's cold war probably shifted defense priorities, and a lull in tensions, new threats, etc. may have caused resources to shift away from that between TOS and TNG.

But it's not like the UFP had a lot of time to react to the Borg (what, a year?) or the Dominion (a few years at best, especially when you factor in those back-stabbing Romulan bastards that made the situation worse with one sly move).

And (I know you know, but) a starship ain't no Chevy. It takes years to get these things off the line. (hence the creation of the Defiant, which shows that they had started to make that shift to boost defense since encountering the Borg).

Either way, my point really was just that:
1) No one at that meeting ever suggested that they mothball Starfleet: the aid asked about it, and Cartright argued against it (but he was arguing with no one because nobody actually said it).
2) Since no one in that room would be responsible for making such a decision anyway, citing that scene to explain or offer conjecture about the state of SF battle readiness generations later is weak... AT BEST.
 
Have you considered the fact that the "scientific and exploration program" of Starfleet is probably the MAJORITY OF THE FLEET and that the conflict with the Klingons was really just a very expensive distraction centered on a half dozen contested planets?

I agree with this. Starfleet's primary purpose is exploration. But all their so called exploration ships are so well armed they're never completely defenseless.

But the Starfleet as Kirk knew it was over. 100 years later, the Klingon Neutral Zone is gone and presumably all the starships assigned to patrol it. The USS Enterprise-D had holodecks and daycares for families. It was like a luxury liner compared to the old Constitution class. Of course after encountering the Borg, the Enterprise-E was pretty much a warship again (not that Starfleet would ever admit it)
 
All of this makes me wonder even more about the economics of the future, specifically, how long does it take to get a starship made and ready for duty.

If it would be like today and years to build a ship, I could see this as a problem. But I don't think we got much information about 23rd century ship building. By TNG, they seem to be built by nanobots changing sand into metal or whatever. But in this particular movie, we don't know. And then, what would actually happen to the ships. It's not like they would park them in neat rows in the desert and chop them up so the Klingons could see they were dismantled, right? So again, the allegory might be breaking down. So what if they reassign some of the fleet to a different sector, would that really be that bad? Maybe the Enterprise wouldn't be the only ship protecting Earth anymore?

I just can't quite get my head around someone (Cartwright) that hates, racially vicerally Hates the Klingons is so willing to work with some of them and vice versa. (They are an aggressive species that can't be trusted, so I've made a secret agreement with them.) ok.

And what does Kang really hope to get out of this, unless he was planning to seize the Chancellorship after disrupting the Khitomer conference. And then what? I'm not saying it ruins the movie because many motivations seem poorly thought out in history, but I do wonder what their goals are.

And back to Cartwright himself. In this thread it's been argued, and well I add, that he was trying to make the assertion that Starfleet would in some way no longer be able to protect the Federation. Did he just say this to try to lure people to not agree with what the Federation government was saying or was it a true fear of his. It's one thing to make a hyperbolic claim to further your own opinions, but if he truly believed the Federation would be defenseless, he may have seen himself as trying to save the Federation. I don't suppose anyone knows what his true motivations were?
 
I don't recall anybody suggesting dismantling the fleet.

Except for when they literally used those exact words or said something similar multiple times (see below).

That they may have renegotiated terms with the Klingons later to preserve the defensive arm of the fleet, or whether they simply beefed up the defensive capabilities of their exploratory and scientific ships is irrelevant to the fact that Cartwright and other high ranking officers were apparently (over)reacting based on the possibly erroneous assumption that the defensive arm of the fleet was going to be eliminated as a result of the treaty.

It wouldn't be the first time high ranking military officers, government officials, and politicians made rash decisions based on hyperbolic and reactionary preliminary readings of a chaotic political/military situation.

SPOCK: Good morning. Two months ago a Federation starship monitored an explosion on the Klingon moon Praxis. We believe it was caused by over-mining and insufficient safety precautions. The moon's decimation means a deadly pollution of their ozone. They will have depleted their supply of oxygen in approximately fifty Earth years. Due to their enormous military budget, the Klingon economy does not have the resources to combat this catastrophe. Last month, at the behest of the Vulcan Ambassador I opened a dialogue with Gorkon, Chancellor of the Klingon High Council. He proposes to commence negotiations at once.

CARTWRIGHT: Negotiations for what?

SPOCK: The dismantling of our space stations and starbases along the Neutral Zone, an end to almost seventy years of unremitting hostility with the Klingons, which the Klingons can no longer afford.

MILITARY AIDE: Bill, are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet?

C in C: I'm sure that our exploration and scientific programs would be unaffected, Captain, but...

CARTWRIGHT: I must protest. To offer the Klingons a safe haven within Federation space is suicide. Klingons would become the alien trash of the galaxy. And if we dismantle the fleet, we'd be defenceless before an aggressive species with a foothold on our territory. The opportunity here is to bring them to their knees. Then we'll be in a far better position to dictate terms.

KIRK: Sir!

C in C: Captain Kirk?

KIRK: The Klingons have never been trustworthy. I'm forced to agree with Admiral Cartwright. This is a terrifying idea.

SPOCK: It is imperative that we act now to support the Gorkon initiative, lest more conservative elements persuade his Empire that it is better to attempt a military solution and die fighting.

C in C: You, Captain Kirk, you are to be our first olive branch.
CHANG: Tell me, Captain Kirk, would you be willing to give up Starfleet?

SPOCK: I believe the Captain feels that Starfleet's mission has always been one of peace.

CHANG: Ah.

KIRK: Far be it for me to dispute my first officer. Starfleet has always been...

CHANG: Come now, Captain, there's no need to mince words. In space, all warriors are cold warriors.
http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie6.html

“And if we dismantle the fleet, we’d be defenseless before an aggressive species with a foothold on our territory.”

That statement in itself was a valid point.

What I found to be odd was the CinC’s response to the aide’s question, “are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet?”
He could have answered with a “no”. That answer would have been concise and to the point, if there was absolutely no possibility that was going to happen.

Why did the CinC fiddle around with his answer about “exploration and scientific programs would be unaffected”? Maybe the reason that he responded the way that he did was because there were indeed proposals on the table (i.e. negotiation table) for a substantial dismantling of Starfleet.

It seemed more likely that had he continued his answer, it might have went something like “I’m sure that our exploration and scientific programs would be unaffected, Captain, but”
1.) the military arm of the fleet would be cut severely, if we agree to the terms proposed.
or
2.) I am being deliberately vague so that it will prompt some future (past - 21st century) internet forum to have a heated discussion about what we all said here in this scene.

During the dinner on board the Enterprise, Chang asked Kirk, “tell me, Captain Kirk, would you be willing to give up Starfleet?” That conversation at the dinner led me to believe that the dismantling of Starfleet was probably one of the terms (at least initially) that the Klingons demanded of the Feds.

Back to the scene in the Starfleet meeting, after Cartwright asked “negotiations for what?” Spock responded, “The dismantling of our space stations and starbases along the Neutral Zone…”. That might have been the Fed’s counterproposal. But even Spock’s proposal called for some degree of dismantling of Starfleet.

Both sides apparently were intending to negotiate the dismantling of some or all of Starfleet. In that context, Cartwright objections seemed valid. Ultimately, what was actually agreed to was the Khitomer accords. But at that point in the movie, nobody knew exactly how much Starfleet was going to be dismantled or reduced through the negotiations.

This is not to suggest that because Cartwright made some valid points that he was a good guy. He may have been right but for the wrong reasons. He may have had darker motives. He turned out to be a treasonous conspirator.
 
If we go solely by TUC and ignore the rest of Trek, the Romulans were apparently buddies with the Federation, since their ambassador was allowed to sit in on diplomatic sessions between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, as well as secret Federation military briefings. :wtf:

Kor

Being buddies doesn't follow. Nominal allies perhaps; perhaps also in one or more tripartite treaties with the Federation and Klingon Empire, which could provide grounds for the Romulan Ambassador to be present during certain types of sessions if certain other parties are present.

What scenes with secret military briefings are you referring to? If it's the scenes with Colonel West, those were cut. Or are you talking about something else?

Well yes, the scenes that were on home video editions sold ro the public for years and years. Nanclus even gave his voice of support to the idea of a military operation: "Mr. President, they are vulnerable. There will never be a better time." :vulcan:

Kor
 
All of this makes me wonder even more about the economics of the future, specifically, how long does it take to get a starship made and ready for duty.

If it would be like today and years to build a ship, I could see this as a problem. But I don't think we got much information about 23rd century ship building. By TNG, they seem to be built by nanobots changing sand into metal or whatever. But in this particular movie, we don't know. And then, what would actually happen to the ships. It's not like they would park them in neat rows in the desert and chop them up so the Klingons could see they were dismantled, right? So again, the allegory might be breaking down. So what if they reassign some of the fleet to a different sector, would that really be that bad? Maybe the Enterprise wouldn't be the only ship protecting Earth anymore?

Well, it depends. We don't know that much about their shipbuilding capability (I think), except that in DS9 it is stated it is outmatched by the Dominion's (but that doesn't tell us much)

But even if they would have fantastic ship building capability with nanobots and everything, there's still a time limit on design. Suppose your latest dedicated warship design is 75 years old because of a very long period of peace, you could start pumping out those outdated models, perhaps with some hastily retrofitted upgrades.... but that's still very different from having a fleet consisting of dedicated ships designed around the latest military technologies. Even with 24th century technology, designing a new warship properly is probably still going to take several years. And this is what we actually see -- The Defiant appears, what, 7 years after the first Borg encounter, even though the Borg were immediately seen as a big threat and they started developing new stuff immediately (I believe in BOBW it is stated that some new weapons systems weren't projected to be ready in less than 24 months)? That's also because of time you need to test and optimise the new design and shake out its flaws. They might be able to eliminate some of that (much like we can run simulations before starting to build), but certainly not all of it.

Therefore, I would suppose the answer to your question would partly depend on whether we are talking about complete demilitarization of Starfleet (no longer keeping up with current warship designs), or only in the klingon-specific sectors, but keeping (up with) military presences elsewhere.
 
Re: Borg threat

at Quark's comments, I believe, would apply. The Defiant could probably be designed and built more quickly than the Sovereign and Prometheus, because of its small size. The Defiant as a small torpedo/gunboat, as opposed to a battle cruiser or battleship.

I think that the Sovereign class was in the works before the Enterprise D had its first encounter with the Borg.

The Prometheus, however, has been described as a one trick pony (even though MVAM is sexy), and certainly wasn't practical as a crash program-testing began well into the Dominion war.
 
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Tim Walker said:
I think that the Sovereign class was in the works before the Enterprise D had its first encounter with the Borg.

The TNG-TM does suggest that even as the Galaxy Class were being rolled out, their 'successor' was already in the making. If this means the Sovereign, then it is definitely true.

A bigger question is whether, although 'we' obviously perceive the 1701-D being succeeded by 1701-E, we have to wonder if for want of the circumstances at Veridian III, the Enterprise name would have passed onto the Sovereign Class as quickly as it did, or whether good ol' 1701-D would've remained in service even though her 'successor ships' would have been launched pretty much on schedule and been operating alongside her. Because otherwise, it would be a pretty big coincidende that meant the Galaxy Class Enterprise got shot down, and Starfleet already had a successor ship ready to slap the Enterprise name onto within the year. We have to assume circumstances simply lined up for them to say, ''Hey, instead of the second Sovereign being christened USS Stankypants NCC-80112, we'll just christen it Enterprise NCC-1701-E and move Picard and his entire senior staff over to her instead''. :)

The other scenario, obviously, might've been that they always intended to move them over to a Sovereign, and it would've been the Galaxy Class Enterprise that would undergo a name change (and a brand new crew).
 
I think Cartwright's take on the situation, Chang's take, hell, most of the Enterprise crew's take, initially, were right on... from their points of view.

It's all summed up in Kirk's bottom line to Azetbur: "People can be very frightened of change."
 
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