Dress Uniforms

[LadyT'Anna]

Kilana, Weyoun, Quark, Morn, Garak, Seven of Nine and Vic Fontaine are (among others) the lucky ones who don't have to wear dress uniforms.

The Doctor (EMH) could simply modify his uniform without having to change into it. He is unlikely to feel uncomfortable. I'd like to see the Doctor in the white dress uniform....

As would I, Kilana2. I would far rather have seen everyone wearing them consistently. Why reprise TNG uniforms in the first place, and why grey them down in later DS9 episodes? I always found that rather silly--uniforms can be grim enough as it is without being made mostly grey! (Again, see TOS uniforms--both standard and dress--for a counterexample.)

I gather that those named in your list don't have to wear dress uniforms--or indeed any uniforms at all--because they aren't members of Starfleet. And even if he were in Starfleet, Vic Fontaine always dresses in character; that's his uniform, if you will. Odo and Kira dress to the nines when they visit him, because they, too, are in character at such times. Not that I'm telling you anything you don't already know!

 

[Kilana2]

Kilana, Weyoun, Quark, Morn, Garak, Seven of Nine and Vic Fontaine are (among others) the lucky ones who don't have to wear dress uniforms.

The Doctor (EMH) could simply modify his uniform without having to change into it. He is unlikely to feel uncomfortable. I'd like to see the Doctor in the white dress uniform....

As would I, Kilana2. I would far rather have seen everyone wearing them consistently. Why reprise TNG uniforms in the first place, and why grey them down in later DS9 episodes? I always found that rather silly--uniforms can be grim enough as it is without being made mostly grey! (Again, see TOS uniforms--both standard and dress--for a counterexample.)

I gather that those named in your list don't have to wear dress uniforms--or indeed any uniforms at all--because they aren't members of Starfleet. And even if he were in Starfleet, Vic Fontaine always dresses in character; that's his uniform, if you will. Odo and Kira dress to the nines when they visit him, because they, too, are in character at such times. Not that I'm telling you anything you don't already know!

Even if Odo had to wear any kind of uniforms, he would create them with his changeling body. He wouldn't have any comfort issues. O'Brien is the one who is likely to complain.... He would pay Garak a visit. I guess I said it before: I don't know if changes would be against regulation. At least Miles would go to Garak with his complaints....

 

[LadyT'Anna]

Even if Odo had to wear any kind of uniforms, he would create them with his changeling body. He wouldn't have any comfort issues. O'Brien is the one who is likely to complain.... He would pay Garak a visit. I guess I said it before: I don't know if changes would be against regulation. At least Miles would go to Garak with his complaints....

That's another good point. Bajoran officers and engineers have to wear a separate style of uniform while on duty; one need look no further than Odo or Kira to find evidence of that. But again, it's one style--there aren't separate dress uniforms.

I'm not sure that O'Brien trusts Garak enough to complain to him about anything. And I can't say that I blame him.

 

[Kilana2]

Even if Odo had to wear any kind of uniforms, he would create them with his changeling body. He wouldn't have any comfort issues. O'Brien is the one who is likely to complain.... He would pay Garak a visit. I guess I said it before: I don't know if changes would be against regulation. At least Miles would go to Garak with his complaints....

That's another good point. Bajoran officers and engineers have to wear a separate style of uniform while on duty; one need look no further than Odo or Kira to find evidence of that. But again, it's one style--there aren't separate dress uniforms.

I'm not sure that O'Brien trusts Garak enough to complain to him about anything. And I can't say that I blame him.

So you say it's more likely that O'Brien would try to manipulate the replicator to get a more comfortable uniform.
On the other hand people obviously still need a tailor.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Kilana, Weyoun, Quark, Morn, Garak, Seven of Nine and Vic Fontaine are (among others) the lucky ones who don't have to wear dress uniforms.

The Doctor (EMH) could simply modify his uniform without having to change into it. He is unlikely to feel uncomfortable. I'd like to see the Doctor in the white dress uniform....

As would I, Kilana2. I would far rather have seen everyone wearing them consistently. Why reprise TNG uniforms in the first place, and why grey them down in later DS9 episodes? I always found that rather silly--uniforms can be grim enough as it is without being made mostly grey! (Again, see TOS uniforms--both standard and dress--for a counterexample.)

I gather that those named in your list don't have to wear dress uniforms--or indeed any uniforms at all--because they aren't members of Starfleet. And even if he were in Starfleet, Vic Fontaine always dresses in character; that's his uniform, if you will. Odo and Kira dress to the nines when they visit him, because they, too, are in character at such times. Not that I'm telling you anything you don't already know!

Even if Odo had to wear any kind of uniforms, he would create them with his changeling body. He wouldn't have any comfort issues. O'Brien is the one who is likely to complain.... He would pay Garak a visit. I guess I said it before: I don't know if changes would be against regulation. At least Miles would go to Garak with his complaints....

I'm not sure that it is quite so simple for Odo. He need not don clothing, but he must imitate it. I would have thought he would appear in dress uniform (like Kira) when Shakaar visited the station: he is a member of the Bajoran militia. I think it's reasonable to assume that there are limits to what he can do sartorially, and even his tux was a look he had to practice

 

[fireproof78]

I'm curious about something. If future fashions should look wrong to us, why should we aspire to use them?

More realistic? For instance, I never understood all the complaints about TMP uniforms looking like "pajamas." What I'm wearing today would probably look like pajamas to someone from 200 years ago, and it makes sense that it would.

I'm not sure I follow but if I do, I do understand that fashions will change, and that how I dress now would be considered "wrong" to someone even from a different culture much less a different time period.

By echo here I meant "copy," not "be influenced by." The dress uniforms hearken the long-coats, but their form-fitting thin-fabric-ed look wouldn't have been considered decent during the Victorian Era. Victoria would have thought the dress uniform as naked as some fans find the regular one.

Point is, future fashion should look wrong to us today, and we should aspire to the themes presented in well-made "wrong" future fashions.

I'm curious about something. If future fashions should look wrong to us, why should we aspire to use them?

Because they would improve on current ones. The prospect of Western women going without corsets would have seemed very wrong indeed to Victorian sensibilities, but it is perfectly acceptable (thank goodness!) in the twenty-first century.

Well, my question continues-is Star Trek fashion an improvement upon current fashions?

As was pointed out the uniforms of Starfleet are designed for individuals who are in shape and physically fit. It does not always seem able to accommodate different body shapes or variation.

That said, I never had a problem with Starfleet uniforms, but the idea that they are "supposed to look wrong" strikes me as odd, mostly in the implication that if I have a problem with the uniform then the problem is with me

Regardless, of the dress uniforms I preferred the TOS uniforms, though, of all the Starfleet uniforms presented over the years, TOS has always been my personal favorite.

 

[LadyT'Anna]

I'm curious about something. If future fashions should look wrong to us, why should we aspire to use them?

More realistic? For instance, I never understood all the complaints about TMP uniforms looking like "pajamas." What I'm wearing today would probably look like pajamas to someone from 200 years ago, and it makes sense that it would.

I'm not sure I follow but if I do, I do understand that fashions will change, and that how I dress now would be considered "wrong" to someone even from a different culture much less a different time period.

I'm curious about something. If future fashions should look wrong to us, why should we aspire to use them?

Because they would improve on current ones. The prospect of Western women going without corsets would have seemed very wrong indeed to Victorian sensibilities, but it is perfectly acceptable (thank goodness!) in the twenty-first century.

Well, my question continues-is Star Trek fashion an improvement upon current fashions?

As was pointed out the uniforms of Starfleet are designed for individuals who are in shape and physically fit. It does not always seem able to accommodate different body shapes or variation.

That said, I never had a problem with Starfleet uniforms, but the idea that they are "supposed to look wrong" strikes me as odd, mostly in the implication that if I have a problem with the uniform then the problem is with me

Regardless, of the dress uniforms I preferred the TOS uniforms, though, of all the Starfleet uniforms presented over the years, TOS has always been my personal favorite.

Mine also, fireproof78. And Kilana2, I can totally see O'Brien manipulating the replicator!

 

[DavidGutierrez]

Personally, I wish they had been more consistent with when the dress uniforms were worn. In TOS, they were worn in most court settings ("Court Martial," "Menagerie," "Space Seed") but not all ("Deadly Years," "Turnabout"). And, the only 24th century court episode I can recall where they were in dress was "Rules of Engagement."

The lack of consistency just bugs me.

 

[Arpy]

That said, I never had a problem with Starfleet uniforms, but the idea that they are "supposed to look wrong" strikes me as odd, mostly in the implication that if I have a problem with the uniform then the problem is with me

The "problem" is with you. There is no one perfect fashion style for a designer to copy from the mind of God and then have us all to adopt forever thereafter.

The future always looks a little off to contemporary eyes, even if it's better. If your version of it doesn't, then it's not really a future as it is an alternate now. Do you think these people would think that any contemporary bathing suits look "right"?

Well, my question continues-is Star Trek fashion an improvement upon current fashions?

With apologies to anyone who's ever served in the military, I always find the uniforms a little silly, like those of a tinpot dictator's. Looking sharp is one thing, but the jewelry doesn't inspire confidence. Am I supposed to ooh-and-ah like a primitive at the sparkles?

As was pointed out the uniforms of Starfleet are designed for individuals who are in shape and physically fit. It does not always seem able to accommodate different body shapes or variation.

Not all body types are suited to be skinny runners, or heavy line-backers, or muscly wrestlers. Half the job of a Starfleeter is that of a fighter, no?

And not everyone would be able to do the math required either. It's not just the body. Physics, calculus, Cochranius...

More, Starfleet may be harder to get into than modern militaries; how many of them make you pass psychological and philosophical tests like the no-win scenario and the overcoming of your greatest fear?

 

[T'Girl]

Am I supposed to ooh-and-ah like a primitive at the sparkles?

You might consider being impressed, while not always the case some of those medals and ribbons come at a very high price.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Ain't that the truth.

 

[fireproof78]

That said, I never had a problem with Starfleet uniforms, but the idea that they are "supposed to look wrong" strikes me as odd, mostly in the implication that if I have a problem with the uniform then the problem is with me

The "problem" is with you. There is no one perfect fashion style for a designer to copy from the mind of God and then have us all to adopt forever thereafter.

The future always looks a little off to contemporary eyes, even if it's better. If your version of it doesn't, then it's not really a future as it is an alternate now. Do you think these people would think that any contemporary bathing suits look "right"?

Well, my question continues-is Star Trek fashion an improvement upon current fashions?

With apologies to anyone who's ever served in the military, I always find the uniforms a little silly, like those of a tinpot dictator's. Looking sharp is one thing, but the jewelry doesn't inspire confidence. Am I supposed to ooh-and-ah like a primitive at the sparkles?

As was pointed out the uniforms of Starfleet are designed for individuals who are in shape and physically fit. It does not always seem able to accommodate different body shapes or variation.

Not all body types are suited to be skinny runners, or heavy line-backers, or muscly wrestlers. Half the job of a Starfleeter is that of a fighter, no?

And not everyone would be able to do the math required either. It's not just the body. Physics, calculus, Cochranius...

More, Starfleet may be harder to get into than modern militaries; how many of them make you pass psychological and philosophical tests like the no-win scenario and the overcoming of your greatest fear?

Edit: the above quote is has another quote that is misattribued to Lady T'ana when Arpy was actually responding my post.

I curious as to why the problem is automatically with the viewer, such as myself. If that is the case, then both past and future fashion suck, and we should all be nudists. That solves a lot of problems right there.

I'm a counseling student. I have to deal with a lot of emotional issues on my end before I get to counsel others. I'll let you know how the "no-win" scenario goes.

Also, there is plenty of discussion regarding Starfleet's combat role and how that all takes shape. Does that combat role also apply to the doctors, scientists, and the like aboard?

As for uniforms, many have a function that is steeped in tradition. Regardless of what civilians might think, those decorations all have a very specific purpose. Silly looking or not, I would not question any service member regarding their awards without appropriate respect. I've seen some of the mental toll it can take on family members, much less the physical one.

In any case, Starfleet uniforms can be wonderfully inconsistent at times, and interesting at other times in their prediction of future fashions. But, if I were honest, only the TOS ones (and possibly the First Contact ones) looked remotely comfortable.

 

[Arpy]

Am I supposed to ooh-and-ah like a primitive at the sparkles?

You might consider being impressed, while not always the case some of those medals and ribbons come at a very high price.

Cute, but no. I am impressed by what they represent but am wondering about the manner in which we choose to represent them.

 

[Arpy]

I curious as to why the problem is automatically with the viewer, such as myself. If that is the case, then both past and future fashion suck, and we should all be nudists. That solves a lot of problems right there.

Past and future fashion do suck, but they're also great, visually and functionally. They suit their times. Future fashions should look off to us because we'll always be the imperfect products of our time.

Should we all be nudists? I'd rather not.

Come to think of it, in a nudist world, fashion would come into play in how we styled our hair, how muscular or plump we were, what body paints or modifications we chose...

Plus, we're all different (each of us explorers in the "unknown possibilities of existence") shouldn't we all strive for whatever works for us, rather than trying to find The One Proper Look and then all fall into lockstep behind?

Also, there is plenty of discussion regarding Starfleet's combat role and how that all takes shape. Does that combat role also apply to the doctors, scientists, and the like aboard?

I'm not sure, but I think so. I tend to think of Starfleeters as Jedi, only warrior-scientists rather than warrior-priests. (...warrior-scientist-priests actually, given how moral they tend to be.)

 

[LadyT'Anna]

I'm very much obliged for the attribution fix, fireproof78; thank you kindly!

I'm not sure, but I think so. I tend to think of Starfleeters as Jedi, only warrior-scientists rather than warrior-priests. (...warrior-scientist-priests actually, given how moral they tend to be.)

Arpy, yes, there is definitely a strain of priestliness running through Trek, beginning with the presence of the Vulcan P'Jem monastery in ENT. A few centuries on, there's DS9's characterization of Sisko as the Emissary to the Prophets, not to mention the presence of Winn Adami, the kai whom viewers love to hate. (Louise Fletcher found her costume onerous, by the way, although she never complained about it in-universe.)

 

[Kilana2]

Arpy, yes, there is definitely a strain of priestliness running through Trek, beginning with the presence of the Vulcan P'Jem monastery in ENT. A few centuries on, there's DS9's characterization of Sisko as the Emissary to the Prophets, not to mention the presence of Winn Adami, the kai whom viewers love to hate. (Louise Fletcher found her costume onerous, by the way, although she never complained about it in-universe.)

Then Louise Fletcher and Marc Alaimo must have been likewise glad when Winn had to shed her costume.

 

[LadyT'Anna]

Arpy, yes, there is definitely a strain of priestliness running through Trek, beginning with the presence of the Vulcan P'Jem monastery in ENT. A few centuries on, there's DS9's characterization of Sisko as the Emissary to the Prophets, not to mention the presence of Winn Adami, the kai whom viewers love to hate. (Louise Fletcher found her costume onerous, by the way, although she never complained about it in-universe.)

Then Louise Fletcher and Marc Alaimo must have been likewise glad when Winn had to shed her costume.

I'm sure, although I fully expected him to slip her a poisoned chalice during one of those moments. Kai Winn is an interesting footnote to this thread because she's pretty much always in dress uniform. Seems Bajorans who are religious figures don't have the luxury of standard dress.

 

[fireproof78]

I curious as to why the problem is automatically with the viewer, such as myself. If that is the case, then both past and future fashion suck, and we should all be nudists. That solves a lot of problems right there.

Past and future fashion do suck, but they're also great, visually and functionally. They suit their times. Future fashions should look off to us because we'll always be the imperfect products of our time.

Should we all be nudists? I'd rather not.

Come to think of it, in a nudist world, fashion would come into play in how we styled our hair, how muscular or plump we were, what body paints or modifications we chose...

Plus, we're all different (each of us explorers in the "unknown possibilities of existence") shouldn't we all strive for whatever works for us, rather than trying to find The One Proper Look and then all fall into lockstep behind?

Then which one is "wrong?" And why is one preferred over the other?

Thus far, the above statements feel like interesting contradictions, that future fashions both suck and are interesting, as well as our conflict on nudism

All this is mental exercises, and for that, I am enjoying it.

Also, as a quick note on medals-the medals are not meant to impress civilians, such as myself. They are a part of the tradition, shared among service members that often allow for a kinship that is hard to describe to those who have not experienced it.

Edit: Lest I sound argumentative, I'm not trying to. I am honestly trying to explore the concept of future fashions from the point of view that they should be "wrong" to contemporary audiences.

 

[Arpy]

Well, as I mentioned upthread, IMHO, one thing that is definitely wrong for a futuristic uniform is anything that looks more or less like it would totally fit in today. I'm not talking aesthetics; this point is one of chronological realism.

If it doesn't look like there have been multiple eras of fashion between now and then...different trends and types of materials, colors, cuts...as well as swings back and forth (but never all the way - a 90's revival grunge flannel shirt doesn't look quite as authentic as one from a vintage shop...and that's just after 20-years, let alone 400), then why do you think you're looking at something that's down the line?

(EDIT: also consider this: medieval uniforms were designed to stop blades/lances; the famed British redcoats were designed to stand out when war was about showing the flag; current uniforms are designed to camouflage. Which one is "right"?)

Then there are thematic considerations. A Starfleet officer would not dress like an Imperial officer, or a Nazi one. They look snazzy, but in the real world, they'd raise all sorts of political and thematic questions. The heavy somber black and gray FC uniforms, again though snazzy, make one wonder if the Borg hadn't already assimilated the Federation. (Ditto the emaciated E-E, but that's another thread. ...It's like TPTB focused so much on the kewl nightmarish Borg it influenced everything else in the movie.)

I think many Trek uniforms look futuristic in that they don't look quite as intimidating to us as contemporary military uniforms do. They're lighter, less busy, with fewer layers. To someone from the 24th century though, our uniforms look like this.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, as I mentioned upthread, IMHO, one thing that is definitely wrong for a futuristic uniform is anything that looks more or less like it would totally fit in today. I'm not talking aesthetics; this point is one of chronological realism.

If it doesn't look like there have been multiple eras of fashion between now and then...different trends and types of materials, colors, cuts...as well as swings back and forth (but never all the way - a 90's revival grunge flannel shirt doesn't look quite as authentic as one from a vintage shop...and that's just after 20-years, let alone 400), then why do you think you're looking at something that's down the line?

Then there are thematic considerations. A Starfleet officer would not dress like an Imperial officer, or a Nazi one. They look snazzy, but in the real world, they'd raise all sorts of political and thematic questions. The heavy somber black and gray FC uniforms, again though snazzy, make one wonder if the Borg hadn't already assimilated the Federation. (Ditto the emaciated E-E, but that's another thread. ...It's like TPTB focused so much on the kewl nightmarish Borg it influenced everything else in the movie.)

I think many Trek uniforms look futuristic in that they don't look quite as intimidating to us as contemporary military uniforms do. They're lighter, less busy, with fewer layers. To someone from the 24th century though, our uniforms look like this.

Thank you. Your point is far more clear than it was before

I took your meaning as that if I were offended by a uniform the problem is with me, and that attempt at a uniform construction struck me as, well, odd. But, I'll not discuss artistic design from a production point of view, since that appears to be outside the scope of this discussion.

However, if the chronology of the uniform is to be internally consistent, and thematically reflect the society presented, then I am inclined to agree with your comments, as far as I understand them.

As for uniform chronology, in my opinion, from NX-01 to TOS (including Kelvin, Cage and WNMHGB variants) has the best chronology, with TMP and TWOK feeling out of place. TNG has some internal consistency, but feel like they lost it at FC to some degree. Could go either way on that one, really.

As far as aesthetics go, I prefer TOS as a general rule.

Edit: "Right' in this discussion does not strike me as the correct term. "Appropriate" or "proper" (especially in terms of British uniforms referenced) seems to be the better term when discussing uniforms. "Right" often implies a moral question, which seems out of place here.