A few Voyager Memories/Thoughts

[fireproof78]

I'm not sure if this is merely bad writing, or if it's a conceptual problem within the series framework.

The whole "Can't make more torpedoes" thing was never going to be a big issue in the series in the first place. It would either be resolved very fast or ignored. Should they have really bothered with it to begin with?

Could be both.

I, personally, would argue that it is bad writing to bring it up and then never let it matter again. I think that is bad writing period and could point to numerous films and TV shows were it occurs (Tron: Legacy is an immediate example). So, it's not exclusive to VOY.

That said, it's a minor quibble but one that stands out because of how it is called out by the characters.

I can resolve lots of things with my own mental facilities but it annoys me if I have to do it often.

 

[MacLeod]

Which is my point, they have the characters highlight these issues to us, only for them to be later ignored. Sure we can try and rationalise them by ourselves but that isn't the job of the viewer is the job of the writer.

Take the torpedeo issue for example there were three options to them

1.>Keep track of how many are being used so they are a scarce resource to be used only in the most dire circumstances

2.>Write yourselves out of the issue

3.>Ignore it.

By highlighting the problem, as a viewer you thing they are going to use option 1 otherwise why highlight the issue.

So you've written yourself into a corner use option 2, lets just write ourselves out of it and show/tell the viewer

Sadly they went with option 3, options 1 and 2 treat the viewer with some respect, option 3 doesn't.

 

[stardream]

I often wish I could ask the writers questions about why they made certain choices, not in a accusatory way but coming from a place of honest curiosity.

For a long time I was on the Fuselage, the board for LOST, where the producers, actors and writers posted. It was apparently frustrating for the writers to create a script with the goal of emphasizing a particular point only for the audience (the internet audience anyway) to focus on something they thought was secondary or not at all important. The episode might be about Jack making a huge life choice but that is ignored. They are over here looking at Charlie or Sawyer doing something they thought was out of character or something the dog did. I admit in the early years the fans were a bit crazy but as the show went on we settled down and didn't 'freeze frame' quite so much but that sort of reaction still happened.

I noticed it also happened with Battlestar Galactica. We didn't interact with the writers so much but we would read the interviews and realize the things we were going on and on about was NOT the point of the episode.

I don't know if that is 'bad' writing or if some actor was extra good at drawing attention to him or herself and was focusing our attention elsewhere. I just know that as far as some writers were concerned, some fans were missing the point by focusing on minor details. I suppose we weren't looking at the 'big' picture.

 

[MacLeod]

Perhaps but in the case of Lost, part of the experiance of watching was to try and figure out what was going on. So some small minor background detail could become important later or be a clue as to what was going on.

As for minor details, isn't there a difference between it being in the background as opposed to being in the foreground. for example in the case of VOY the torpedeo issue was in the foreground.

Sure SF fans can obsess over details, but we are known for this so one would expect SF writers to be aware of this and pay closer attention to the "minor details".

But one could argue that focusing our attention on the background rather than the foreground esp. in a mystery show can be a sign of good writting as it has diverted our attention away from a more key plot point.

 

[Deks]

We can then simply imagine that they found a way to do it off-screen.
Problem solved.
A lot of the stuff were not mentioned on-screen to begin with that were done in the novels (not canon, I know - but still).

Perhaps, but ignoring the issue because it's inconvinient it's poor writing doesn't matter if it's in a book/film or TV episode. It's almost like a Deus ex machina.

It's not my fault as a viewer if they call attention to something and later ignore it, I can rightly call them on their sloppy writting. As I indicated the issue is more them ignoring the issue rather than issue itself, and addressing these issues could easily have been done via a log entry. Doesn't really impact the casual viewer but acknowledges to the segment of the audiance which pays attention to these things (and SF fans are known for paying attention to details) that we know we said this but we are changing the playing field (for lack of a better term).

Of course by the time VOY aired, internet usage was becomming far more common so the ability to perhaps get away with these things was narrowing. As newsgroups etc.. allowed people to discuss the episode perhaps far more than they could previously.

Blame the writers for the inconsistencies.
They were the ones dumbing down SF's technological capabilities as time went on.
I was just mentioning what seemed more than possible for the Voyager crew to have done off-screen (think self-sufficiency - literally every SF ship in the 24th century with transporters could do it even with low energy reserves) to explain the inconsistencies the writers introduced.
Granted, doing the 'dirty work' for the writers doesn't seem like it should be done, but people try to explain things away in a logical manner that does fit in-universe and possibly has more credibility.

To further this analogy... the Bussard Collectors were originally intended to be used as collecting stellar matter and use it for energy generation.
As such, the purpose of using Deuterium as 'fuel' seems to fall apart (as I have to ask, what purpose is there to having to use 'fuel' when SF ships and equipment mainly need potent energy source to run them)?

The main source of power on board is the Warp core which needs anti-matter (secondary power sources apparently include fusion reactors - as well as impulse reactors, though these might have been mentioned as being a part of the impulse engines).
It was mentioned on-screen in the early seasons that Voyager's core can function for 3 years before having to be refilled... and evidently, they managed to solve this issue long before it became an issue (either via omicron particles, or they managed to synthesize it themselves in uninhabited star systems, or they traded for it).

 

[Lynx]

But I must admit that the sloppy writing has given me a lot of opportunities to figure out explanations for the mose stupid things which has been and still is a lot of fun for me.

You just have to look at the Kes Website and go to the link: Voyager Mysteries-and how to solve them to see that.

Maybe I should start a forum called Ask Professor Lynx where frustrated Star Trek fans in common and particularily Voyager fans could send in their questions about items like The Borg baby, torpedoes and such.

 

[MacLeod]

We can then simply imagine that they found a way to do it off-screen.
Problem solved.
A lot of the stuff were not mentioned on-screen to begin with that were done in the novels (not canon, I know - but still).

Perhaps, but ignoring the issue because it's inconvinient it's poor writing doesn't matter if it's in a book/film or TV episode. It's almost like a Deus ex machina.

It's not my fault as a viewer if they call attention to something and later ignore it, I can rightly call them on their sloppy writting. As I indicated the issue is more them ignoring the issue rather than issue itself, and addressing these issues could easily have been done via a log entry. Doesn't really impact the casual viewer but acknowledges to the segment of the audiance which pays attention to these things (and SF fans are known for paying attention to details) that we know we said this but we are changing the playing field (for lack of a better term).

Of course by the time VOY aired, internet usage was becomming far more common so the ability to perhaps get away with these things was narrowing. As newsgroups etc.. allowed people to discuss the episode perhaps far more than they could previously.

Blame the writers for the inconsistencies.
They were the ones dumbing down SF's technological capabilities as time went on.
I was just mentioning what seemed more than possible for the Voyager crew to have done off-screen (think self-sufficiency - literally every SF ship in the 24th century with transporters could do it even with low energy reserves) to explain the inconsistencies the writers introduced.
Granted, doing the 'dirty work' for the writers doesn't seem like it should be done, but people try to explain things away in a logical manner that does fit in-universe and possibly has more credibility.

To further this analogy... the Bussard Collectors were originally intended to be used as collecting stellar matter and use it for energy generation.
As such, the purpose of using Deuterium as 'fuel' seems to fall apart (as I have to ask, what purpose is there to having to use 'fuel' when SF ships and equipment mainly need potent energy source to run them)?

The main source of power on board is the Warp core which needs anti-matter (secondary power sources apparently include fusion reactors - as well as impulse reactors, though these might have been mentioned as being a part of the impulse engines).
It was mentioned on-screen in the early seasons that Voyager's core can function for 3 years before having to be refilled... and evidently, they managed to solve this issue long before it became an issue (either via omicron particles, or they managed to synthesize it themselves in uninhabited star systems, or they traded for it).

Weren't the bussard collectors more about restoring the reserves of dueterium rather than genereting energy themsevles that would still be done primarily by the warp core, which uses dueterium as the matter part of the M/AM reactor. With fusion reacors primarily being for the impulse drive.

So the Bussard collectors collect hydrogen from space as the ship moves along (and whilst not canon the TNG tech manual says they can create AM onboard the ship with something like a 15 to 1 Matter to Anti-matter ratio).

Sure things happen offscreen not saying that they don't but as soon as you say something can't be done onscreen that changes the game. Because've you defined a limit in-universe of what capabilities you have, you want to change those limits at least show or tell the audiance that you are changing them.

Remember in the case of VOY part of the premise is that they were on their own having to survive with what they had, having a seemingly endless supply of torpedeos (which we are told they can't replace) and shuttlecrafts for me in part detracts from the premise of the show.

Sure I can enjoy the episodes and VOY did have some great episodes but as I said earlier I feel it could have been so much more than it was.

 

[Anwar]

Remember in the case of VOY part of the premise is that they were on their own having to survive with what they had,

Therein lies the core problem, that's just not a sustainable premise for more than 1 or 2 seasons. They'd have to build up a power base and a support system externally or there's really nothing to the show.

 

[fireproof78]

Remember in the case of VOY part of the premise is that they were on their own having to survive with what they had,

Therein lies the core problem, that's just not a sustainable premise for more than 1 or 2 seasons. They'd have to build up a power base and a support system externally or there's really nothing to the show.

Doesn't change the fact that it was a part of the show or that it was the writer's problem.

And, it really is a simple fix in terms of writing.

"Ensign, what's the status of our torpedo supply."

"We managed to figure out a way to manufacture new ones based upon a schematic from the last planet."

"Good work. I'll be in my ready room."

Look, problem solved, and it took me three seconds.

I don't mind filling in gaps, but, as has been pointed out, if the writers called it out, the onus is really on them to deal with it.

 

[stardream]

I don't know how writing for episodic TV worked in the late 90s. With the change in production teams and I think they just forgot things themselves. This is Star Trek. They have photon torpedoes in Star Trek. In this scene they fire photon Torpedoes. Would there be anyone around from early days to call it out? Hey...in the second episode it was established that they had a limited supply of photon torpedoes. Should we 'fix' that? If someone did bring it up I think they were probably counting on the viewers not remembering.

I wonder if any of the trivia people ever went back and counted how many times they actually used torpedoes? That would of course exclude reset buttons and dreams, hallucinations and the like. Husband and I are going to do a re-watch as soon as we are through with Next Gen so maybe I'll keep a running tally just to see...for my own curiosity.

Going back to the LOST forum they would share pictures of the writer's room. There were whiteboards covered with all kinds of details, they had a guy whose job it was to ensure continuity and they STILL forgot things.

 

[MacLeod]

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFq-37a7pk0[/yt]

This is a series of vids with continuity errors first up is the torpedeos.

 

[stardream]

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFq-37a7pk0[/yt]

This is a series of vids with continuity errors first up is the torpedeos.

Thanks!

Maybe they would have been better off if they just hadn't mentioned a number.

 

[Lynx]

^^
I've seen this video before and I love it.

Maybe I should make a sister site to the "Voyager Mysteries-and how to solve them" at the Kes Website called "Star Trek Mysteries- and how to solve them"!

However, trying to explain the countless continuity errors in ENT and the recent NuTrek movies would have me ending up in some padded cell, cared for by people dressed in white because those episodes and movies are so full of continuity errors and screwed up Trek history that I wonder if the writers actually have seen any TOS, TNG, DS9 or VOY episodes before writing their scripts to ENT and the NuTrek movies.

However, TNG could be a nice try!

Unfortunately, I still haven't watched everything of DS9 due to the crappy, malfunctioning DVD:s that Paramount exports to Europe so I have to wait with that series until I have solved that problem.

 

[Anwar]

Of course, if we apply all continuity errors than there wouldn't even be a VOY series in the first place. TOS said that they could travel tens of thousands of light years in only days. Sticking to that, Voyager would've been home in a month.

 

[Deks]

Of course, if we apply all continuity errors than there wouldn't even be a VOY series in the first place. TOS said that they could travel tens of thousands of light years in only days. Sticking to that, Voyager would've been home in a month.

Which incidentally fits well in line with a civilization such as the Federation.
Technical and scientific breakthroughs occur exponentially as is... if we had a full population of 7.2 billion contributing to this in their own way via automation (let alone dozens or over a hundred different races working together in a similar manner as described in Star Trek), it's hardly a stretch to think they would easily achieve these speeds by the mid 23rd century, seeing how technical and scientific breakthroughs would no longer be 'exponential'... it would effectively be akin to 'quantum jumps' (just from a population of 7.2 billion - let alone dozens or hundreds of planets doing something similar).

This is why I think Gene Rodenberry's original idea for TNG (and Enterprise-D) to be centred around the idea of exploring another galaxy was a viable one.
It would still take a while to explore the Milky Way as is in detail by TNG, but the Feds would also be exploring other galaxies as well.

It would also explain why the Feds progressed so quickly (and why Q described them the proverbial 'king of the anthill' or something like that in their region of the galaxy) - and could easily overshadow the Klingons, the Romulans, and even the Dominion that usually use conquest, competitive notions, etc. to reach similar goals (unless we are talking about stumbling on Iconian style technology that would give them a boost, but the Feds would eventually catch up that pretty fast because there is such a thing called 'acceleration of acceleration').

Gene understood the concept of cooperation when merged with automation (machine learning, real time computational simulations taking ideas from others and testing them to see what works and what doesn't - which is being done now with IBM's Watson in the fields of medicine and astronomy), but most other writers apparently didn't, or were prevented from taking those notions further on-screen due to network executives (which is quite possible).

DS9 simply went with the downplayed flow too often when it comes to planet based use of phasers (and a distinctive lack of personal shields, even though they were mentioned not just in TOS, but also DS9, and were seen in use in TNG and Voyager) ... as did Voyager with Warp 9.975 = 1000 Ly's per year (nonsense, especially when the ship couldn't even HOLD that speed at all, even though it was repeatedly stated to be their 'maximum SUSTAINABLE CRUISING SPEED).
Mind you... I liked Voyager... but in that case, they should have been flunged outside the Galaxy of a sufficient distance and say it would take them 75 years to get back from there (not the other side of Milky Way).

It would be interesting to see a fictional exploration of an interstellar void between galaxies that would further their understanding of the universe (which is incidentally how science and technology progress in the first place - namely by studying the environment and natural processes in nature).

 

[Lynx]

Maybe Voyager should have been sent to the Andromeda Galaxy instead. That could have been a real adventure!

 

[Deks]

If we go by the figures that in TOS, 1000 Ly's could have been traversed in just 1 solar day (26 hours by Kirk's time)... and if we give Voyager roughly 100x that speed as a sustainable cruise velocity (that is, if the Enterprise-D explored another galaxy as originally intended and we wanted to showcase how properly they advanced Warp technology in 100 years)... then Voyager should have been thrown about 27.375 billion ly's away to make the trip back in 75 years - that's just over halfway across the UNIVERSE.

Considering the amount of technologies each SF ship has that would allow full self-sufficiency and independence from need of drydock or starbase... it would make sense.

 

[Anwar]

Bleh, by this point the better plot would've been for Q to randomly teleport them somewhere and say "If you try to leave this area I'm outlining, I'll kill you. Stay alive for a few years and I'll send you back."

 

[Unicron]

I like the idea of a Shuttle and Torpedo rebuilding team! It is real. I believe.

Yes!

Let me quote from the Kes Website page "Voyager Mysteries-and how to solve them:

The amount of Shuttles and Photon Torpedoes

Voyager always did seem to have an endless supply of shuttles and photon torpedoes. No matter how many shuttles they destroyed or how many torpedoes they did blow up, despite their talk of limited resources, they always had new ones to blow up and destroy. Now that's because of:

The Torpedo and Shuttle Building Team!

This would be the perfect explanation to why Voyager always had shuttles available despite losing them in episode after episode. It would also explain where characters like Dalby, Henley, Chell, Gerron, Vorik, Carey, Rollins and Samantha Wildman were during most of the time in the Delta Quadrant. They were building new shuttles and torpedoes both day and night!

I always wondered where Samantha Wildman disappeared to. This explains everything!