Will Riker refusing own command

[Kilana2]

I never thought that Riker's command decision turns out to be such a big controversy.

Riker has Titan now with interesting new characters. Like Riker's delayed captaincy this TNG spin-off in the form of novels polarizes likewise. As long as people keep talking about it.....

 

[suarezguy]

In fairness though Riker wasn't alone. Geordi got upset that Jellico asked him to get the engines up to peak performance for combat. Crusher was appalled that he asked her to get sick bay ready because he might actually take a warship into combat and people could be hurt. Troi was speechless that, after he listened carefully to her concerns, he asked her to address crew morale because had a battle to prepare for. What a ridiculous request I mean she's only the ship's counselor, I don't see where it's her job to help the crew feel better. He also ordered her out of those fat ass clothes she wore and into an actual uniform.....the horror.

Aside from Data and Worf, who both have duty built into them, the crew were just a bunch of crybabies who didn't like that meanie head Jellico.

The characters did seem pretty unreasonable but La Forge eventually if not pretty quickly did seem to get around to the different command style, understand the importance of the mission and give his best. Troi also adapted pretty well.

I feel Jellico was unnecessarily harsh and out of line and Riker did the right thing to stand up to him.

You do realize that Starfleet is the military, not Summer camp?

I'm sorry, but I wonder what kind of vacation craft Picard and Riker were running? Jellico came in with a plan for upgrades that were clearly doable. Why weren't Picard and Riker already upgrading the ship?

Kirk would've been embarrassed to have someone come on his ship with plans for upgrades that should've already been done.

There's a pretty big middle ground between being a combat-oriented or -centric ship and a vacation ship; it's clear the main characters preferred to avoid battle but thought they were ready for it and the higher-ups seemed to generally agree.

 

[Mojochi]

The characters did seem pretty unreasonable but La Forge eventually if not pretty quickly did seem to get around to the different command style, understand the importance of the mission and give his best. Troi also adapted pretty well.

Right. Pretty much everyone adapts and falls in line, except Riker

There's a pretty big middle ground between being a combat-oriented or -centric ship and a vacation ship; it's clear the main characters preferred to avoid battle but thought they were ready for it and the higher-ups seemed to generally agree.

Albeit, the ENT-D's primary charter is exploration & diplomacy, & Jellico was tasked with rearranging it to be a tip of the spear wartime vessel. Sufficient cause to accept that some changes may be in order

 

[MacLeod]

The characters did seem pretty unreasonable but La Forge eventually if not pretty quickly did seem to get around to the different command style, understand the importance of the mission and give his best. Troi also adapted pretty well.

Right. Pretty much everyone adapts and falls in line, except Riker

There's a pretty big middle ground between being a combat-oriented or -centric ship and a vacation ship; it's clear the main characters preferred to avoid battle but thought they were ready for it and the higher-ups seemed to generally agree.

Albeit, the ENT-D's primary charter is exploration & diplomacy, & Jellico was tasked with rearranging it to be a tip of the spear wartime vessel. Sufficient cause to accept that some changes may be in order

The counter argument would be if we could be taking the ship into battle, is it best not to make too many changes that might effect how the ship/crew perform.

Sure the crew will adapt but it might not happen instantly it could take a number of hours to impliment any changes during whivh time normal routine might be disrupted howe ver slightly leading to a less than peak performance.

 

[JesterFace]

Like he said himself: Maybe he's just afraid on the big chair.

 

[BillJ]

The counter argument would be if we could be taking the ship into battle, is it best not to make too many changes that might effect how the ship/crew perform.

Sure the crew will adapt but it might not happen instantly it could take a number of hours to impliment any changes during whivh time normal routine might be disrupted howe ver slightly leading to a less than peak performance.

But the Enterprise crew are suppose to be the best of the best. So I don't buy that disturbing their routine would somehow lower their performance. Honestly, sitting at monitors for six hours at a time instead of eight should increase their performance.

 

[T'Girl]

... it's clear the main characters preferred to avoid battle but thought they were ready for it and the higher-ups seemed to generally agree.

Actually is it all that clear that higher ups agree? It was higher ups who place Jellico (with his command style) in command of the Enterprise, and not Riker.

 

[Mojochi]

The counter argument would be if we could be taking the ship into battle, is it best not to make too many changes that might effect how the ship/crew perform.

Like changing its chain of command? Why bring in a new captain at all then? If keeping things as they are for greater effectiveness was really a priority in this mission, then just give it to Riker. He would've changed nothing at all. Everyone would've been operating the exact same way as they were under Picard

They wanted things changed on that ship. It's why they put him there. Riker was told he was not the man to command this mission, & that the ship was being sent in for namesake alone. That suggests they wanted a ship more like Jellico's but didn't think it would give the same impression as the "Flagship". Given that the Enterprise crew are the best Starfleet has to offer, command would just assume that they would be up to crisis challenges

 

[BillJ]

Like changing its chain of command? Why bring in a new captain at all then? If keeping things as they are for greater effectiveness was really a priority in this mission, then just give it to Riker. He would've changed nothing at all. Everyone would've been operating the exact same way as they were under Picard

They wanted things changed on that ship. It's why they put him there. Riker was told he was not the man to command this mission, & that the ship was being sent in for namesake alone. That suggests they wanted a ship more like Jellico's but didn't think it would give the same impression as the "Flagship". Given that the Enterprise crew are the best Starfleet has to offer, command would just assume that they would be up to crisis challenges

I don't know we can infer anything beyond Starfleet wanted someone in the captain's chair with experience dealing with Cardassians.

 

[Mojochi]

Then why not send Jellico with his ship? or send him as a mission specialist, & leave Riker in command or any number of scenarios. Clearly he'd needn't make as many last minute changes aboard the Cairo. She made it clear they wanted Jellico because he was the man for the job & they wanted the Enterprise, because it was the ship with the reputation for the job. They wanted Jellico to run the Enterprise. They wanted Jellico's Enterprise. As thorough as he was from second one, he very likely even gave them an outline of what he'd be doing. It's an inference, but a sound one, imho

 

[Disco]

It's interesting that when there's a threat from the Cardassians they seemingly want a Jellico Enterprise but later during the Dominion War the Enterprise was busy elsewhere.

(I know the off screen reasons)

 

[BillJ]

Then why not send Jellico with his ship? or send him as a mission specialist, & leave Riker in command or any number of scenarios. Clearly he'd needn't make as many last minute changes aboard the Cairo. She made it clear they wanted Jellico because he was the man for the job & they wanted the Enterprise, because it was the ship with the reputation for the job. They wanted Jellico to run the Enterprise. They wanted Jellico's Enterprise. As thorough as he was from second one, he very likely even gave them an outline of what he'd be doing. It's an inference, but a sound one, imho

In Starfleet, a starship commander is the one with the gravitas. Every other empire knows that. So Starfleet paired there most experienced commander (with Cardassians) with the command ship of the sector in case hostilities broke out, the Enterprise.

JELLICO: Or something he was going to do in the future. In case of a Cardassian attack, the Enterprise will be assigned as Command ship for this sector. If the Cardassians got wind of that...

 

[Mojochi]

It would still seem to be easier to just make the Cairo the new ship of the sector, than to play musical chairs all over the place, especially since they're disbanding the ENT-D's command structure to man their secret mission. Nechayev makes it clear that the name value of "The Enterprise" is why they are sending that ship. It just strikes me that Jellico is put in command of her for that reason, otherwise, the smarter course of action would be to just reassign the 2 ships, because The Cairo would need much less restructuring

It all still smells like their motive is to have a Jellico ship handle this crisis, but that the presence might be more imposing if that ship were named Enterprise

 

[BillJ]

It would still seem to be easier to just make the Cairo the new ship of the sector, than to play musical chairs all over the place, especially since they're disbanding the ENT-D's command structure to man their secret mission. Nechayev makes it clear that the name value of "The Enterprise" is why they are sending that ship. It just strikes me that Jellico is put in command of her for that reason, otherwise, the smarter course of action would be to just reassign the 2 ships, because The Cairo would need much less restructuring

The Galaxy class is the Federation's top dog at that point. Why send a lesser ship?

It all still smells like their motive is to have a Jellico ship handle this crisis, but that the presence might be more imposing if that ship were named Enterprise

Of course it is. Jellico is probably more of a known commodity in the captain's chair than Riker is. Especially in regards to the Cardassians. Probably also their best military strategist with Picard sidelined.

The military is usually far more flexible than what we see in Star Trek.

 

[Karzak]

I think it's made pretty clear in the episodes why Picard, Crusher and Worf were chosen for the secret mission. Likewise, despite our people being kept in the dark, it's also patently obvious why Jellico gets the Enterprise - he's a hardass who has had extensive prior dealings with the Cardassians. If Ben Maxwell hadn't gone apeshit Colonel Kurtz on everyone, he likely would have been sent. Finally, the Enterprise was sent because it's the flagship of the fleet. It's the most successful of the Galaxy-class ships we've seen so far, and it's got a reputation. Excelsior-class ships were tiny pieces of shit compared to it. Of course Starfleet would send the Enterprise.

 

[T'Girl]

Finally, the Enterprise was sent because it's the flagship of the fleet.

The Enterprise was the flagship of the Federation, there's no indication that it was ever a Starfleet flagship.

 

[Karzak]

Finally, the Enterprise was sent because it's the flagship of the fleet.

The Enterprise was the flagship of the Federation, there's no indication that it was ever a Starfleet flagship.

I'm sure I'm going to regret asking this, but why on god's green earth wouldn't they be one and the same? Starfleet is an organization that exists as part of the Federation. The Enterprise is a Federations starship manned by Starfleet officers. There is literally nothing in the canon of the series or its films that suggests anywhere that there would even be such a differentiation.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Federation
Starfleet
Individual Fleets
Vessels designated as flagships for specific mission or because they are commanded by flag officers

 

[Jedman67]

Federation
Starfleet
Individual Fleets
Vessels designated as flagships for specific mission or because they are commanded by flag officers

Starfleet is the military of the Federation. Individual non-starfleet federation fleets are not relevant.

Based on what we've seen on-screen, most admirals are administrative; there have been very few large-fleet maneuvers (BoBW, Redemption, FC, Dominion War) and most have been commanded by the senior captain. The Honor Harrington novels give a lot of insight into how an active flag structure could work with fleets; obviously a TV budget would make showing such a structure quite expensive.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I was trying to do a tabbed org chart - but the formatting here won't let me.

The point of my post is that the Federation uses Starfleet for military/scientific/exploration purposes, and while Federation matters can on occasion directly determine the actions of individual vessels, on most occasions the power structure in order of supremacy is

1) Federation
2) Starfleet
3) Individual fleets
4) Vessels designated as flagships for a specific mission or because they are commanded by a flag officer (which could be a senior captain or an Admiral).

So the Enterprise may have been designated a flagship for a variety of reasons, but it could be either a flagship of the Federation (although under the direction of Starfleet) for diplomatic missions or a Starfleet flagship for military/science/exploration missions.

Those designations and assignments could be interchangeable.