Dark Matter, SyFy's new space show, premieres June 12th

[1001001]

It was cool that Android called out Two on her hypocrisy.

Yes, that was a good call. She's still wearing the bandage, for corn's sake! Nice lecture about not lying to each other.

 

[Admiral2]

You seem to have trouble seeing the advantage here. It's not about replacing your common ground troops. It's about getting special forces where they can be of the most use quickly. Response time is a huge advantage. So is knowing that if the clone dies you still have the original and - as we have seen - they can be redeployed in minutes. It kicks the shit out of current drone technology and look how the world militaries have rushed to embrace them.

The response time you speak of is always mitigated by logistics. Building the clone may only take minutes, but loading it up, briefing it and getting it to the front on the destination planet takes longer, and the enemy is not going to just sit and wait for a fresh batch to show up and start shooting again. As soon as the bad guys realize they're facing clones - like when they all dissolve - the enemy's going to move heaven and earth to bomb or storm any transfer facility they even suspect exists on the planet - and it will probably happen while the clones are loading their weapons.

So your scenario only works if the first batch of clones can dispatch the enemy within the clones' lifespan. Any delay past their expiration transfers advantage to the enemy.

Again, you're equating them to standard troops. The advantage here is to put specially trained teams that are in short supply where they are needed quickly.

Imagine being able to deploy Seal Team 6 anywhere on the planet within an hour and not having to worry about loosing members of that team.

I have imagined it. The failure of imagination here is on your part, because you're not considering things from the enemy's point of view.

So yeah, imagine we can deploy SEAL Team 6 anywhere on the planet in an hour. Now imagine everybody else on the planet knows you have that capability and knows that in order for it to work the following conditions must be present:

-there must be a destination facility.

-it has to be big enough to transfer enough SEALs to make a difference.

-it has to be big enough to stock enough weapons, equipment and transportation so that the SEALs aren't walking to the front line with just their schweens in their hands.

Now with that in mind, say you want to cause some mischief somewhere where there's SEAL transfer facility nearby and so far you've managed to keep the operation a secret. What's the first thing you do?

A: Give up immediately, cause Americans is scary.

B: Launch the op and hope to complete it before that hour prep time for the Americans is up.

Or, C: BOMB THE FUCK OUT OF THE TRANSFER FACITLITY SO THAT THE AMERICANS AINT GOT NO PLACE TO SEND THE SEAL CLONES TO!

See, most military planners with half a brain would pick "C," because the best way to negate any technological advantage is to exploit the technology's limitations, and from a military standpoint the transfer tech as demonstrated in the episode simply has too many limitations to exploit. It doesn't matter if you're sending four men or four hundred (and with SEAL teams it could be either) and doesn't matter if you're sending elite troops or cannon fodder. In either case the technological limitations are the same.

And not losing people in battle is only meaningful if you can get them to the battle in the first place.

 

[Star Wolf]

I have to wonder if the military version might give the clones a longer life than the commercial one.

Or their weapons turn to vampire dust like their uniforms so the enemy can't harvest them.

 

[sojourner]

Or, C: BOMB THE FUCK OUT OF THE TRANSFER FACITLITY SO THAT THE AMERICANS AINT GOT NO PLACE TO SEND THE SEAL CLONES TO!

See, most military planners with half a brain would pick "C," because the best way to negate any technological advantage is to exploit the technology's limitations, and from a military standpoint the transfer tech as demonstrated in the episode simply has too many limitations to exploit. It doesn't matter if you're sending four men or four hundred (and with SEAL teams it could be either) and doesn't matter if you're sending elite troops or cannon fodder. In either case the technological limitations are the same.

And not losing people in battle is only meaningful if you can get them to the battle in the first place.

This is an amazing tactic you've come up with. I wonder why it hasn't been used against all of our existing forward deployment bases around the world?

 

[Admiral2]

Or, C: BOMB THE FUCK OUT OF THE TRANSFER FACITLITY SO THAT THE AMERICANS AINT GOT NO PLACE TO SEND THE SEAL CLONES TO!

See, most military planners with half a brain would pick "C," because the best way to negate any technological advantage is to exploit the technology's limitations, and from a military standpoint the transfer tech as demonstrated in the episode simply has too many limitations to exploit. It doesn't matter if you're sending four men or four hundred (and with SEAL teams it could be either) and doesn't matter if you're sending elite troops or cannon fodder. In either case the technological limitations are the same.

And not losing people in battle is only meaningful if you can get them to the battle in the first place.

This is an amazing tactic you've come up with. I wonder why it hasn't been used against all of our existing forward deployment bases around the world?

So you've never heard of Pearl Harbor? Or Beirut? Or the USS Cole? Or the Tet Offensive? Or the bajillion other US forward bases throughout history that have been attacked as parts of larger plans?

I mean, you sit there and act like this transfer tech is a magical war-ending machine without taking any time to consider its actual usefulness in a combat situation. It's pure Trekkie think, like "Oh we'll just beam a bomb onto the Star Destroyer" as if there weren't a bunch of times in trek canon where outside forces have stopped anybody from beaming anything anywhere. In fact, even with that an actual transporter would still be more useful than transfer tech because at least you could send the soldier with his uniform and guns and you wouldn't need a whole building to land him in!

Like I keep saying, it's good for a one-man ad hoc intel mission, the way Six used it. You are not going to run any sustained combat operation using it because its limitations make that kind of operation impractical.

 

[Christopher]

The real One (Derrick Moss) kind of looked like Jace Corso, probably why he choose him to impersonate. Did the same actor play Derrick?

No -- Derrick was played by Dan Jeannotte. Although I'm not sure whether the voice was Bendavid's or Jeannotte's.

Since One, Four and Six were able to use those transfert pods then I guess it is safe to say they are not some kind of clone. Unless clones can be re-cloned too.

I think we can rule out the clone idea, now that we know the clone-vacation infomercial was meant to set this episode up.

 

[JD]

The response time you speak of is always mitigated by logistics. Building the clone may only take minutes, but loading it up, briefing it and getting it to the front on the destination planet takes longer, and the enemy is not going to just sit and wait for a fresh batch to show up and start shooting again. As soon as the bad guys realize they're facing clones - like when they all dissolve - the enemy's going to move heaven and earth to bomb or storm any transfer facility they even suspect exists on the planet - and it will probably happen while the clones are loading their weapons.

So your scenario only works if the first batch of clones can dispatch the enemy within the clones' lifespan. Any delay past their expiration transfers advantage to the enemy.

Again, you're equating them to standard troops. The advantage here is to put specially trained teams that are in short supply where they are needed quickly.

Imagine being able to deploy Seal Team 6 anywhere on the planet within an hour and not having to worry about loosing members of that team.

I have imagined it. The failure of imagination here is on your part, because you're not considering things from the enemy's point of view.

So yeah, imagine we can deploy SEAL Team 6 anywhere on the planet in an hour. Now imagine everybody else on the planet knows you have that capability and knows that in order for it to work the following conditions must be present:

-there must be a destination facility.

-it has to be big enough to transfer enough SEALs to make a difference.

-it has to be big enough to stock enough weapons, equipment and transportation so that the SEALs aren't walking to the front line with just their schweens in their hands.

Now with that in mind, say you want to cause some mischief somewhere where there's SEAL transfer facility nearby and so far you've managed to keep the operation a secret. What's the first thing you do?

A: Give up immediately, cause Americans is scary.

B: Launch the op and hope to complete it before that hour prep time for the Americans is up.

Or, C: BOMB THE FUCK OUT OF THE TRANSFER FACITLITY SO THAT THE AMERICANS AINT GOT NO PLACE TO SEND THE SEAL CLONES TO!

See, most military planners with half a brain would pick "C," because the best way to negate any technological advantage is to exploit the technology's limitations, and from a military standpoint the transfer tech as demonstrated in the episode simply has too many limitations to exploit. It doesn't matter if you're sending four men or four hundred (and with SEAL teams it could be either) and doesn't matter if you're sending elite troops or cannon fodder. In either case the technological limitations are the same.

And not losing people in battle is only meaningful if you can get them to the battle in the first place.

If you get the soldiers there, you also have to make sure the facility is still there after the operation in order to make sure you can get rid of the clones and upload the memories. Unless your destination is in a heavily guarded area that the enemy won't be able to attack, then there's a pretty good chance you won't have a facility to send the troops' memories back from after the mission is complete.

 

[sojourner]

I mean, you sit there and act like this transfer tech is a magical war-ending machine without taking any time to consider its actual usefulness in a combat situation. It's pure Trekkie think, like "Oh we'll just beam a bomb onto the Star Destroyer" as if there weren't a bunch of times in trek canon where outside forces have stopped anybody from beaming anything anywhere. In fact, even with that an actual transporter would still be more useful than transfer tech because at least you could send the soldier with his uniform and guns and you wouldn't need a whole building to land him in!

Like I keep saying, it's good for a one-man ad hoc intel mission, the way Six used it. You are not going to run any sustained combat operation using it because its limitations make that kind of operation impractical.

Um, NO. I never said it was a magical war ending technology. I have been arguing that it's a very valuable tool. You're the one that has repeatedly said, "meh, gimmick" and tried to argue that it has no tactical value. Limiting it to "intelligence gathering" is a severe under utilization and lacks imagination of the possibilities for other uses.

Pretty much any time you need to send in a small team on short notice this technology would be great.

 

[Reverend]

I mean, you sit there and act like this transfer tech is a magical war-ending machine without taking any time to consider its actual usefulness in a combat situation. It's pure Trekkie think, like "Oh we'll just beam a bomb onto the Star Destroyer" as if there weren't a bunch of times in trek canon where outside forces have stopped anybody from beaming anything anywhere. In fact, even with that an actual transporter would still be more useful than transfer tech because at least you could send the soldier with his uniform and guns and you wouldn't need a whole building to land him in!

Like I keep saying, it's good for a one-man ad hoc intel mission, the way Six used it. You are not going to run any sustained combat operation using it because its limitations make that kind of operation impractical.

Um, NO. I never said it was a magical war ending technology. I have been arguing that it's a very valuable tool. You're the one that has repeatedly said, "meh, gimmick" and tried to argue that it has no tactical value. Limiting it to "intelligence gathering" is a severe under utilization and lacks imagination of the possibilities for other uses.

Pretty much any time you need to send in a small team on short notice this technology would be great.

I rather think the real value in this technology wouldn't be the rapid response aspect (which is certainly a benefit) so much as the preservation of skills and experiance. Training soldiers, especially good ones is very difficult, time consuming and expensive. This allows the original to be kept on base, safe and sound while the clone is deployed into the field. All you're risking then is the equipment, which you would be anyway with a non-clone.

Worse case scenario: the clones die without making it back to the recycler so the soldiers cannot download their memories and benefit from further experience, much less provide an after action report.

That is unless the military/corporations have developed some kind of cybernetic implant that allows their clones to upload upon termination, with or without a recycler. I mean, all we've seen is the commercial version, no? The possible drawback there is that there would almost certainly be some severe long term psychological consequences of people who can remember dying over and over again. Which has some storytelling potential in and of itself.

Honestly though if this tech is already being used for tourism, then it's a fair bet it's in use for a variety of military, diplomatic and intelligence purposes. From Ambassadors that never have to physically leave their homeworlds, to surgeons performing an emergency procedure from a dozen light-years away or a world leader who never has to worry about going outside for fear of an assassin's bullet.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

So, One is a super billionaire heir dude.

I think it's pretty much a given now that Three was Titch.

 

[Cyrus]

The new episode was decent even though I am not too crazy about Four's story line.

The way Three grabbed the blue pills I thought they were Viagra, but I guess they were really Whisky.

So the hard to read book Four gave to Three was "Charlotte's Web". Haven't read it.

Four is a badass. Someone in this thread said that he is the Worf character of this show, I guess I have to agree with that.

 

[sojourner]

Why would you think the pills were whisky? They had already mentioned getting whiskey.

 

[BigFoot]

Yeah Three grabbed the pills from one box, and then grabbed a whole box that was full of whiskey (and juice ).

 

[JD]

Were Four's mentor's flashbacks the same scenes we saw when Five went back into Four's memories?
I thought this one was pretty good, but I like Four's storyline.

 

[Aragorn]

The fight between Four and his father was from a previous episode, but I don't remember if the mentor consoling him afterward was new or not.

 

[Skywalker]

I'm pretty sure the scene with Akita consoling Ryo was new, yes. I'm pretty sure we didn't see that conversation when Five was remembering the fight.

Four had steadily been developing into my favorite character after a rocky start (I was not a fan of him turning out to be an expert martial artist and swordsman, but whatevs), but he kind of lost me when he murdered Akita at the end. Maybe I missed something but that felt wholly unnecessary.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure I say "I'm pretty sure" too much.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Akita though he had a father/son, 30 years of friendship bond thingy going on.

He was wrong.

 

[cylkoth]

I'
Four had steadily been developing into my favorite character after a rocky start (I was not a fan of him turning out to be an expert martial artist and swordsman, but whatevs), but he kind of lost me when he murdered Akita at the end. Maybe I missed something but that felt wholly unnecessary.

The only way to rationalize it, is to assume that Akita would have been executed for returning alone and empty handed-the entire security contingent was killed, plus he'd be suspected of allying with Ryo, also not good for him.

Still, it sucked having Four kill him for no apparant onscreen reasons. I like the actor, but I haven't been thrilled with the storyline he's saddled with. At least the samurai guards whipped out guns when the shooting started. Bossman makes us wear these funky ancient outfits in the future, why won't he let us carry some pew-pew guns under our robes? It's THE FUTURE! WE NEED PEW-PEW GUNS DAMMMIT!

 

[1001001]

The android on this show really bugs me. I can't put my finger on it exactly, but she's..."weird".

Four's backstory is pretty complete now. Killing his mentor was tragic, but as has already been mentioned, probably necessary under the circumstances. He said "give a message to my brother" and then killed him. I guess the "message" is "I will kill anyone you send, even someone I love". His step-brother seems to actually be half-decent. Mom is pretty much a caricature, though.

When is Two going to come clean? Again, she gave the "we have to be honest with each other" speech, but she's still wearing the fake bandage.

 

[Mach5]

Four's backstory is pretty complete now. Killing his mentor was tragic, but as has already been mentioned, probably necessary under the circumstances. He said "give a message to my brother" and then killed him. I guess the "message" is "I will kill anyone you send, even someone I love". His step-brother seems to actually be half-decent. Mom is pretty much a caricature, though.

Her character looks like something from a really bad B-movie, or a parody.