A Lit-verse based TOS chronology

[Christopher]

Well, I might interpret that "shortly before" as meaning a year or two. "Shortly before" in the grand sweep of Trek history. I just can't wrap my head around Kirk commanding the ship more than around 6 months before the official start of the 5YM. In TMP he says he spent "five years out there", so I interpret that to mean that he commanded a starship for five years, not seven.

Except that line is problematical because we know Kirk had been serving on starships "out there" for about 11 years before TOS began. So he had lots more than five years of experience in deep space. Also, per his behind-the-scenes biography, the Enterprise was not his first command. TMoST says his first command was a smaller, destroyer-equivalent vessel.

Maybe we can interpret his line as referring specifically to the 5-year tour of deep-space exploration, as opposed to different mission profiles closer to home, which might have made up the bulk of his prior command experience. In which case we wouldn't need to take it to refer to his entire career as a captain, just to the time he spent "out there" beyond the limits of known space.

 

[bok2384]

Just to chime in with a reference from a story that is not strictly part of the "Lit-verse" but is linked, My Brother's Keeper: Constitution states that Kirk has been in command of the Enterprise for thirteen months by that time. Spock was slightly more specific in the previous novel, Republic, by stating that he had served alongside Mitchell for thirteen months and twelve days.

Also, while there is no links to the "Lit-verse" that I'm aware of, the recent ebook Seasons of Light and Darkness had Kirk being appointed as captain of the Enterprise in May 2264, although he had yet to assume command and was simply setting about in assembling his crew.

This has been a fascinating thread and I've enjoyed reading.

 

[DaveGalanter]

Although TMoST's bios are not canonically binding (as evidenced by the fact that TWOK gave Scotty a nephew despite TMoST calling him an only child).

People refer to non-blood relatives by such names frequently. I am not related to Greg Brodeur and Diane Carey, but their kids call me their uncle and I refer to them as my nephews and niece. They are family to me in all ways but blood. :-)

 

[Christopher]

^Except that Scotty explicitly said (in the TWOK scene that was deleted from the theatrical cut but restored in the director's cut) that Peter was his sister's youngest son. So it's not a nickname.

 

[JD]

Well, I might interpret that "shortly before" as meaning a year or two. "Shortly before" in the grand sweep of Trek history. I just can't wrap my head around Kirk commanding the ship more than around 6 months before the official start of the 5YM. In TMP he says he spent "five years out there", so I interpret that to mean that he commanded a starship for five years, not seven.

Except that line is problematical because we know Kirk had been serving on starships "out there" for about 11 years before TOS began. So he had lots more than five years of experience in deep space. Also, per his behind-the-scenes biography, the Enterprise was not his first command. TMoST says his first command was a smaller, destroyer-equivalent vessel.

Maybe we can interpret his line as referring specifically to the 5-year tour of deep-space exploration, as opposed to different mission profiles closer to home, which might have made up the bulk of his prior command experience. In which case we wouldn't need to take it to refer to his entire career as a captain, just to the time he spent "out there" beyond the limits of known space.

That was how I've interpreted that line. I assumed the five years was just a reference to the five year mission.

 

[ryan123450]

Just to chime in with a reference from a story that is not strictly part of the "Lit-verse" but is linked, My Brother's Keeper: Constitution states that Kirk has been in command of the Enterprise for thirteen months by that time. Spock was slightly more specific in the previous novel, Republic, by stating that he had served alongside Mitchell for thirteen months and twelve days.

I personally would ignore that claim since it comes from the theory that stardates mean months and days since the launch of the ship. I think that theory gained traction because the show ended just before Stardate 6000. Stardates in several Litverse books haven't abided by that theory, and have went past Stardate 6000. It doesn't fit well with TAS and other books and comics coming after TOS anyway.

Also, while there is no links to the "Lit-verse" that I'm aware of, the recent ebook Seasons of Light and Darkness had Kirk being appointed as captain of the Enterprise in May 2264, although he had yet to assume command and was simply setting about in assembling his crew.

This has been a fascinating thread and I've enjoyed reading.

I wish there was a more concrete and official Litverse answer to this. I suppose in general I'm agnostic as to exactly when Kirk took command.

 

[DaveGalanter]

^Except that Scotty explicitly said (in the TWOK scene that was deleted from the theatrical cut but restored in the director's cut) that Peter was his sister's youngest son. So it's not a nickname.

My point stands. I refer to someone not related to me as "my brother" and that's how my friends know him (and how he is treated) and he refers to me as the same. His wife calls me her brother-in-law, etc. Occasionally someone will ask me why he and I have different last names. "Different fathers?" they ask. I say, "Yes. And different mothers." :-)

But I don't get into the facts of the non-blood relationship with most people, because it's a big who-cares to all of us involved. (In fact, I tend to forget we're not blood relatives. Last August I was checking his newborn son to see if he had thumbs like me. His wife said, "Dave, did you forget you're not actually related?" Yup. I did.)

 

[TheAlmanac]

^Except that Scotty explicitly said (in the TWOK scene that was deleted from the theatrical cut but restored in the director's cut) that Peter was his sister's youngest son. So it's not a nickname.

My point stands. I refer to someone not related to me as "my brother" and that's how my friends know him (and how he is treated) and he refers to me as the same. His wife calls me her brother-in-law, etc. Occasionally someone will ask me why he and I have different last names. "Different fathers?" they ask. I say, "Yes. And different mothers." :-)

But I don't get into the facts of the non-blood relationship with most people, because it's a big who-cares to all of us involved. (In fact, I tend to forget we're not blood relatives. Last August I was checking his newborn son to see if he had thumbs like me. His wife said, "Dave, did you forget you're not actually related?" Yup. I did.)

We're really getting into Sybok-like "you don't have a brother" territory here, aren't we?

I would say that the situation with your own "brother" is atypical, DaveGalanter. If someone refers to someone else as a sibling around me, I'm going to assume they share a parent and/or were raised together.

On a fictional level, Occam's Razor also needs to be applied when it comes to such references, lest any attempt to tie them together becomes completely untenable. As such, I would similarly assume that Scotty is talking about his "real" sister unless some other piece of canon (as opposed to stuff which never made it to screen) gives me reason to think otherwise.

 

[DaveGalanter]

^I don't disagree, but maybe there's an interesting story to be told if it's my atypical situation. (For example, my brother is deaf and I learned ASL to communicate with him, which led me to eventually working with the Deaf at Gallaudet university for 5 years, as well as incorporating a deaf character and sign language into a Trek novel I wrote. My mother sometimes treated my brother better than she treated me, and trusted him/loved him like a son, and his parents treat me like that, and so on.)

I think there are more people than one might think who consider "close friends" to be family even more than cousins they grew up knowing.

 

[bok2384]

Just to chime in with a reference from a story that is not strictly part of the "Lit-verse" but is linked, My Brother's Keeper: Constitution states that Kirk has been in command of the Enterprise for thirteen months by that time. Spock was slightly more specific in the previous novel, Republic, by stating that he had served alongside Mitchell for thirteen months and twelve days.

I personally would ignore that claim since it comes from the theory that stardates mean months and days since the launch of the ship. I think that theory gained traction because the show ended just before Stardate 6000. Stardates in several Litverse books haven't abided by that theory, and have went past Stardate 6000. It doesn't fit well with TAS and other books and comics coming after TOS anyway.

Also, while there is no links to the "Lit-verse" that I'm aware of, the recent ebook Seasons of Light and Darkness had Kirk being appointed as captain of the Enterprise in May 2264, although he had yet to assume command and was simply setting about in assembling his crew.

This has been a fascinating thread and I've enjoyed reading.

I wish there was a more concrete and official Litverse answer to this. I suppose in general I'm agnostic as to exactly when Kirk took command.

That's right, I remembered that theory regarding stardates once you mentioned it. I recall seeing it on the text commentary on the TOS DVD's back in the day.

With regards to a definitive answer to when Kirk took command, I don't think there is one in the "Litverse" as of yet. I've just started re-reading Harbinger as part of an anniversary read/watch through based on this thread, funnily enough. Among a couple of references to the Enterprise being on a long patrol which could indicate anything, there was this snippet in Kirk's first meeting with Reyes in Chapter 6 (page 84) that caught my attention:

KIRK: "When we shipped out last year, I never would have expected to return to a starbase this far from home."

Therefore, we know that Kirk assumed command at some point during 2264 but not when, specifically. Not that I'd imagine there would have been much time for adventures because it would have taken about three months to get to the edge of the galaxy from Earth.

 

[Christopher]

Therefore, we know that Kirk assumed command at some point during 2264 but not when, specifically. Not that I'd imagine there would have been much time for adventures because it would have taken about three months to get to the edge of the galaxy from Earth.

We know of at least one mission that happened between Kirk taking command and the mission to the galactic edge, namely Mere Anarchy: Things Fall Apart. It takes place when Kirk has been captain for "only a short time." It mentions a long-term mission of deep-space exploration and contacts (no doubt the 5-year mission) as "forthcoming," consistent with the idea that Kirk commanded the ship for at least a short time before the 5YM formally started, but there's no mention of the galactic-edge mission being on tap (though Mitchell, Kelso, and Piper are still around). Perhaps that mission was only assigned to the E after the events of that story, postponing the start of the 5YM.

 

[Idran]

With regards to a definitive answer to when Kirk took command, I don't think there is one in the "Litverse" as of yet. I've just started re-reading Harbinger as part of an anniversary read/watch through based on this thread, funnily enough. Among a couple of references to the Enterprise being on a long patrol which could indicate anything, there was this snippet in Kirk's first meeting with Reyes in Chapter 6 (page 84) that caught my attention:

KIRK: "When we shipped out last year, I never would have expected to return to a starbase this far from home."

Therefore, we know that Kirk assumed command at some point during 2264 but not when, specifically. Not that I'd imagine there would have been much time for adventures because it would have taken about three months to get to the edge of the galaxy from Earth.

There is also the Historian's Note for that book that I mentioned upthread, but as was also mentioned, "shortly after" could mean anything. (I still say, though, that it pretty solidly sets Kirk's start of command as some time in 2263. )

 

[ryan123450]

Interesting thoughts on the start of Kirk's tenure. The quote about "last year" is good to know about. I think it's safe to assume 2264 is the year, which fits the Vanguard quote, and also makes sometime in 2263 "shortly before" he takes command.

Someone upthread hoped we could continue this discussion into the movie era. I figured the "Lost Years" and the second 5YM would be a good starting point. You could get alot more detailed than this, and perhaps someone would like to. It's pretty sparse, so I got a bit more detailed with a few stories than I have with this project up to this point. This is taken mostly from the VotI timeline.

As always, the particulars of making all these work together continuity-wise are up to the individual to figure out, but they are all listed on the Lit-verse Reading Guide as having some connection to the Lit-verse.


2271

• Traitor Winds (Original Litverse)
• Leonard McCoy, Frontier Doctor (Note 1)
• Mere Anarchy: Shadows of the Indignant

2272

• A Flag Full of Stars (Original Lit-verse)
• Recovery (Original Lit-verse)

2273

• Serpents in the Garden
• Night Whispers
• The Motion Picture
• Untold Voyages: Renewal
• Ex Machina
• Infestation
• The Kobayashi Maru
• The More Things Change
• Home is the Hunter
• Firestorm

2274

• Mere Anarchy: The Darkness Drops Again (Part 1)
• Untold Voyages: Worlds Collide
• DTI: Forgotten History (2274 Portion)
• Ice Trap

2275

• DTI: Forgotten History (2275 Portion)
• The Wounded Sky (Original Lit-verse)
• Rihannsu: My Enemy, My Ally (Original Lit-verse)
• Doctor's Orders (Original Lit-verse)
• Spock's World (Original Lit-verse)
• Untold Voyages: Past Imperfect

2276

• The Covenant of the Crown (Original Lit-verse)
• Rihannsu: The Romulan Way (Original Lit-verse)
• Rihannsu: Swordhunt
• Rihannsu: Honor Blade
• Rihannsu: The Empty Chair

2277

• Shell Game (Note 2)
• Untold Voyages: Silent Cries (Note 3)
• Death Count (Note 2)

2278

• Rules of Engagement (Original Lit-verse) (Note 4)
• Deep Domain (Original Lit-verse)
• Untold Voyages: Odyssey’s End

1. I'm not sure exactly about this one, and the issues are probably spread out more, but this seemed like at least a place to put it to start.
2. I moved these, and apparently Memory-Beta did too. Since they have the TWOK uniforms, I would rather they come later on, even though I know the covers of alot of TOS novels don't necessarily match the era they are set.
3. I spread the Untold Voyages issues out a bit more than Memory-Beta did, specifically this one. The 5 issues claim to be one year apart, even though that would put the second 5YM at 4 years long.
4. Memory-Beta moved back a year, but I see no reason not to just leave it where it was in the original timeline.

I just tossed this together so there might be some issues I'm not remembering that will change things. I look forward to anyone's thoughts.

 

[bok2384]

Just to round off the Kirk issue, a later scene in Harbinger when he visits Robert D'Amato in his quarters there is the following reference:

His first year in the captain's chair, aboard the Enterprise.

That seems to nail it when you take into account the other references. Personally, I'll still go with the thirteen month references used in the My Brother's Keeper trilogy, but for the context of this timeline we can infer that he has commanded the Enterprise since August/September 2264 which can fit with him being appointed as CO in May 2264 according to Seasons of Light and Darkness if one chooses to do so.

Moving on, and I don't really have much to add with regards to the "second five-year mission", but I do have a couple of notes with regards to the Untold Voyages comics, "Worlds Collide" and "Past Imperfect".

"Worlds Collide" states that it has been a year since Spock recovered Saavik from Hellguard, which occurs in March 2274, or three months before the 2274 section of Forgotten History, therefore it must occur in 2275. How that works with the 2275 section of Forgotten History though, I can't recall though hopefully Christopher can help.

With regards to "Past Imperfect", it is stated that three years have passed since McCoy was drafted back in to Starfleet for The Motion Picture, placing it in 2276.

 

[Christopher]

Moving on, and I don't really have much to add with regards to the "second five-year mission", but I do have a couple of notes with regards to the Untold Voyages comics, "Worlds Collide" and "Past Imperfect".

"Worlds Collide" states that it has been a year since Spock recovered Saavik from Hellguard, which occurs in March 2274, or three months before the 2274 section of Forgotten History, therefore it must occur in 2275. How that works with the 2275 section of Forgotten History though, I can't recall though hopefully Christopher can help.

I don't consider Untold Voyages to be consistent with the novelverse. I suppose the first issue is basically reconcilable with Ex Machina, but "Worlds Collide" doesn't fit with the yearlong leave Spock took to train Saavik as per Unspoken Truth and Forgotten History. Also, UV's characterization of Spock disregards his emotional epiphany within V'Ger and treats him as the same old TOS-style Spock who rejects emotion altogether.

Also, "Past Imperfect" shows Miri's world still present in the Prime timeline, contradicting Forgotten History, and I think its version of Joanna McCoy's backstory conflicts with The Better Man, which has been referenced in my post-TMP fiction (I think) and in A Choice of Catastrophes. I think there are other slight inconsistencies in later issues.

 

[ryan123450]

I misremembered and thought Worlds Collide showed Spock finding Saavik instead of them talking almost a year later. I'll move that and that lets me space out the remaining issues better, and that resolves the timing issue with Past Imperfect. I also have to move Ice Trap since VotI sets it in what is now the "no-Spock" year, which I forgot all about. Moving it just past Forgotten History still lets it be a little more than 8 years after Uhura and Chekov met (which in this timeline is Nov 2266), as per the note in VotI.

I also noticed while flipping through VotI that Shell Game and Death Count were in 2274 because Kirk is said to be just over 40. I suppose as long as they take place in the first two months of 2277 that he would still be 43 and that could be called "just over 40."

Christopher are you sure you've referenced The Better Man in your work? That's a link I've not documented yet.

 

[Christopher]

I also have to move Ice Trap since VotI sets it in what is now the "no-Spock" year, which I forgot all about. Moving it just past Forgotten History still lets it be a little more than 8 years after Uhura and Chekov met (which in this timeline is Nov 2266), as per the note in VotI.

What's your basis for November '66? I have Ice Trap as early '75, not long after the end of Spock's leave to mentor Saavik.

I also noticed while flipping through VotI that Shell Game and Death Count were in 2274 because Kirk is said to be just over 40. I suppose as long as they take place in the first two months of 2277 that he would still be 43 and that could be called "just over 40."

I think they have to come pretty close after Ice Trap. They came out fairly close together from basically the same group of authors, and they felt like they took place pretty close together.

Christopher are you sure you've referenced The Better Man in your work? That's a link I've not documented yet.

Well, I count it in my personal continuity, at least. But now that I think about it, I can't think of anything specific about it that I've explicitly referenced.

 

[ryan123450]

I also have to move Ice Trap since VotI sets it in what is now the "no-Spock" year, which I forgot all about. Moving it just past Forgotten History still lets it be a little more than 8 years after Uhura and Chekov met (which in this timeline is Nov 2266), as per the note in VotI.

What's your basis for November '66? I have Ice Trap as early '75, not long after the end of Spock's leave to mentor Saavik.

I think I remember us talking about the placement of Official Record being a few months after Chekov joined the crew. And you speculated that he came aboard just after "Tomorrow is Yesterday", if I'm remembering correctly. I have that episode placed in Nov 66.

I agree with you about when Ice Trap takes place.

Christopher are you sure you've referenced The Better Man in your work? That's a link I've not documented yet.

Well, I count it in my personal continuity, at least. But now that I think about it, I can't think of anything specific about it that I've explicitly referenced.

Ok, thanks. Glad I didn't miss something.

 

[Stevil2001]

A Choice of Catastrophes does indeed reference The Better Man, but in ways that don't actually line up with dates given in The Better Man.

 

[ryan123450]

I've been corresponding with another timeline enthusiast, Darren Running. He worked up a detailed "Star Trek Chronology style" document about all the John Byrne comic miniseries, and all the timeline info he could glean from them. He's been following this thread and wanted to add what he has worked up to this discussion. He wanted me to post the document he passed along to me for the board's feedback. It's also on my site now.

http://startreklitverse.yolasite.com/resources/John Byrne.doc