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Either Scotty or Sulu was really darn sexist that one time.

There were some very sexist moments in TOS
Hopefully in the truly enlighten future, people won't have to be careful about what they say in public.

Uhura: "You see, in our century we've learned not to fear words."

For what it's worth, I have to say I never cared for that overarching response from Uhura. She knew Lincoln meant no offense or denigration of her in what he addressed her as, and it's fine for her to acknowledge that to him personally. But I think it's downright crazy for her to make the generalization she does, especially for an expert in communications.

Would she have the same attitude about being called a "negress" (or even something else) by Kirk or McCoy?

But I digress -- .
 
Ah, young folks, today: The new Victorians.

Roll in the fainting-couch and grab the smelling salts!
 
There were some very sexist moments in TOS
Hopefully in the truly enlighten future, people won't have to be careful about what they say in public.

Uhura: "You see, in our century we've learned not to fear words."

If only that were true of people today.......

Or in the enlightened 23rd century, where I'm sure no one denigrates or insults anyone using words or labels. (Other than Scotty calling Gorkon's daughter a, "Klingon bitch," of course.) Uhura knew Lincoln meant no harm, and that's fine. And I want to believe we can become more enlightened over time, but in any time, I think they'll still be reasons to fear "mere words."

Last digression. Promise.
 
Wonder if Uhura took offense with Kirk repeatedly referring to her as "miss." How politically incorrect !!!

Send her running to HR.
 
Wonder if Uhura took offense with Kirk repeatedly referring to her as "miss." How politically incorrect !!!

Send her running to HR.

If she didn't like it, and asked him to stop and he didn't, it could be a problem. Same as today.

I'm just saying the idea that words are not feared any more in the 23rd century was a pollyannish overstatement by the writers (in an overall bad episode, for that matter). There's more evidence that it's not true than true, too.

Young Spock is constantly verbally assaulted in ST09 by Vulcan youth trying to get an emotional response out of him. If there's no reason to fear mere words, then why are they doing this?

Spock is offended by the head of the Vulcan academy when he mentions Spock's "handicap." It's what drives him into Starfleet. Was that an overreaction?

As long as words are spoken with intent and convey an idea, there is reason to fear them.

Sorry. Way off topic. That's it for sure, this time.
 
I think it's fair to say that nearly all shows written in the 60s had the underlying assumption that women were not fit for leadership or technical roles and TOS is no exception.

This particular comment though I do not think is sexist, so much as it is a comment that men often overlook all but the physical in their pursuit of women, and Sulu is surprised Scotty is not doing so.
 
I think it's fair to say that nearly all shows written in the 60s had the underlying assumption that women were not fit for leadership or technical roles and TOS is no exception.

It was a bit more than an underlying assumption in TOS; I give you "Turnabout Intruder" as Exhibit A.

(shudder)
 
I think it's fair to say that nearly all shows written in the 60s had the underlying assumption that women were not fit for leadership or technical roles and TOS is no exception.

This statement ignores quite a number of female science specialists and the obvious command role of the Number One character.

Only Turnabout makes a point about there not being female starship captains. And, strictly speaking, they were likely talking about one elite class of 12 vessels out of who knows how many thousands of Star Fleet ships. I seriously doubt there were no female captains among so large a fleet.
 
I think it's fair to say that nearly all shows written in the 60s had the underlying assumption that women were not fit for leadership or technical roles and TOS is no exception.

I think it's more fair to say that the people making shows in the 60s had that attitude more frequently than they do now.

Star Trek had many women in professional positions, more than there are actually in later shows. Turnabout Intruder is a refection of that attitude but it's also a rejection of it as the only one making the assertion is a murderous nutjob. If Merrick didn't pass the psychological exams to be a starship captain, Dr. Lester would have made the testing machine implode.
 
I think it's fair to say that nearly all shows written in the 60s had the underlying assumption that women were not fit for leadership or technical roles and TOS is no exception.

This statement ignores quite a number of female science specialists and the obvious command role of the Number One character.

Only Turnabout makes a point about there not being female starship captains. And, strictly speaking, they were likely talking about one elite class of 12 vessels out of who knows how many thousands of Star Fleet ships. I seriously doubt there were no female captains among so large a fleet.

But you also can't ignore these:

-- Kirk's line in "Elaan of Troyius": Mr. Spock, the women on your planet are logical. That's the only planet in this galaxy that can make that claim."

-- The idea of the "Russian brides" business being alive and well in the 23rd century in "Mudd's Women". Every woman needs a husband, and every miner needs a woman. After all, Eve knew how to clean pots and pans. Very useful. Indeed, Kirk never seems too upset at the idea that Mudd is trafficking wives like commodities. It's just a business.

-- Nomad scans Uhura and concludes she is defective, with chaotic thinking. Spock responds to this by telling Nomad that "unit" is a woman. Nomad says she's a mass of conflicting impulses.

-- "She's a woman, all woman. One day she'll find the right man and off she'll go, out of the service," McCoy said this about Lt. Palamas in "Who Mourns for Adonais?". Why?

-- In "Shore Leave", fantasies seem to be fulfilled. Tonia's? Being a fairy tale princess. "A lady to be protected and fought for," as she said.

-- In "Wolf in the Fold", Spock believes the creature only attacks women because they are more easily terrified and generate more horror than men.

-- Even with Number One as second in command, Pike says in "The Cage" that he just can't get used to a woman on the bridge. When he noticed the yeoman he's referring to overheard the remark, he tells her, "No offense, lieutenant. You're different, of course." WTF does that mean?

-- In a similar vein, what kind of professional (and progressive) atmosphere is it when Kirk remarks to McCoy about being upset at having a woman yeoman, and McCoy responds, "What's the matter, Jim? Don't trust yourself?"

Yes, TOS had women lawyers, women officers (of course, not starship captains, as that wasn't allowed in the 23rd century), women diplomats, women scientists, and women aliens in positions of authority on their planets. But the other things were there, too. And today, they are particularly cringe-worthy to watch (and probably were then too, to a lot of progressive people).

I will say that in "Turnabout Intruder", Kirk does at least admit to Janice that it's not fair she can't be a starship captain because she's a woman. Then again, in the last line of the last ever TOS episode, Kirk says her life could've been as rich as any woman's. What an odd distinction to make. Not as rich as any person's? Or at least, anyone's? Is the implication that what defines a rich life for a human in the 23rd century is still differentiated by sex?
 
First of all, my comment was a response to an overly broad statement that "nearly all shows," including Trek, "had the underlying assumption that women were not fit for leadership or technical roles." I believe this is unsupportable.

But if you want to broaden the topic:

A lot of the instances you cite aren't examples of "sexism." They are examples of people noticing that, contra all the "progressive" orthodoxy that some cling to today, men and women are actually different.

Political correctness: If you're not pinching your eyes shut and sticking your fingers in your ears, you're doing it wrong...
 
First of all, my comment was a response to an overly broad statement that "nearly all shows," including Trek, "had the underlying assumption that women were not fit for leadership or technical roles." I believe this is unsupportable.

But if you want to broaden the topic:

A lot of the instances you cite aren't examples of "sexism." They are examples of people noticing that, contra all the "progressive" orthodoxy that some cling to today, men and women are actually different.

Political correctness: If you're not pinching your eyes shut and sticking your fingers in your ears, you're doing it wrong...

"Progressive orthodoxy"?

:rolleyes:

There's a lot more than "noticing men and women are different" in those scenes. Perhaps not intentional, perhaps nothing to get upset about 50 years later, but it's there. I don't see how you can deny that.

As for your "political correctness" deal, you can take that to TNZ if you wish to argue about that. I'm sure you'll be welcomed.
 
-- The idea of the "Russian brides" business being alive and well in the 23rd century in "Mudd's Women". Every woman needs a husband, and every miner needs a woman. After all, Eve knew how to clean pots and pans. Very useful. Indeed, Kirk never seems too upset at the idea that Mudd is trafficking wives like commodities. It's just a business.
The idea actually goes back farther, to the 19th-century mail-order brides who came from well-developed areas in the Eastern U.S. to marry men in Western frontier lands. And there's no indication that Mudd coerced the women in any way -- they were with him of their own free will. (Of course, he was pushing that Venus drug . . .)

And don't forget, the male miners don't come off so well in this episode. All they want in a wife is superficial beauty and sex appeal. "Is this the kind of wife you want, Ben? Not someone to help you, not a wife to cook and sew and cry and need, but this kind. Selfish, vain, useless. Is this what you really want?"
 
I think that episode was about destroying those stereotypes when they appear rather than propagating them.
 
I think that episode was about destroying those stereotypes when they appear rather than propagating them.

Maybe, if the end had been tweaked at bit.

Either, in the end the magic of simply "believing in herself" didn't return her beauty and Childress still wanted her, because he realized she was a good person and he'd been a pig for wanting her to stay drugged up for him. As it is, he got it all. She got her looks back, and can get his beautiful wife, but one who, as Eve said, will not be vain and selfish, but a wife who would "cook and sew and cry and need."

Or, Eve now realizes that believing in herself is important, and suddenly, she realizes she's been in this for all the wrong reasons. She also knows she deserves someone better than Childress and a situation better than what started as an arranged marriage. Ending it with her saying things have changed, being married isn't as important as it was, and she needs time on her own to discover the new woman she's become and what she wants now would've been a slightly more progressive ending, I'd say. Indeed, if this had been a TNG episode in the late-1980s, I'd bet credits to navy beans the ending would've been more like that.

Of course, YMMV.
 
Is the implication that what defines a rich life for a human in the 23rd century is still differentiated by sex?

Countless people live their lives that way right now, in the 21st century--some 46 years after that episode aired.
 
There were some very sexist moments in TOS
Hopefully in the truly enlighten future, people won't have to be careful about what they say in public.

Uhura: "You see, in our century we've learned not to fear words."
For what it's worth, I have to say I never cared for that overarching response from Uhura. She knew Lincoln meant no offense or denigration of her in what he addressed her as, and it's fine for her to acknowledge that to him personally. But I think it's downright crazy for her to make the generalization she does, especially for an expert in communications.

Would she have the same attitude about being called a "negress" (or even something else) by Kirk or McCoy?
The Blish adaptation takes this conversation a bit farther. After Lincoln apologizes, Uhura says: "Actually, I feel my color much lovelier and superior to yours and the Captain's."

Lincoln: "Superior? Then some of the old problems still exist?"

Kirk steps in: "No, sir. It's just that we've each learned to be delighted in what we are. The Vulcans learned that centuries before we did."

Source: James Blish, Star Trek 6, p. 8


It's a good thing those extra lines weren't included in the final script, in my opinion.

Wonder if Uhura took offense with Kirk repeatedly referring to her as "miss." How politically incorrect !!!

Send her running to HR.
Wasn't it Spock who often referred to Uhura as "Miss" instead of by her rank?
 
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