One of Picard's Goof With Shakespeare

[Starborn Dragon]

In the episode Hide And Q Picard was desperate to defend humanity from Q, so he quotes this passage from Shakespeare's Hamlet, Act 2 Scene 2:

Hamlet:
What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.

Rosencrantz:
My lord, there was no such stuff in my thoughts.

So why is it a goof?

Hamlet wasn't being sincere. He was in a pretty foul mood because he was loosing his mind. Hamlet is a tragedy, and Hamlet5 was going insane from some of the events that had happened previously. The speech was about the melancholy state he was in.

And the quote? Well, actually, Picard has two goods with it. he did not use the full quote, this is actually taken out of context. Here is the full passage:

I’ll tell you why—so you won’t have to tell me and give away any secrets you have with the king and queen. Recently, though I don’t know why, I’ve lost all sense of fun, stopped exercising—the whole world feels sterile and empty. This beautiful canopy we call the sky—this majestic roof decorated with golden sunlight—why, it’s nothing more to me than disease-filled air. What a perfect invention a human is, how noble in his capacity to reason, how unlimited in thinking, how admirable in his shape and movement, how angelic in action, how godlike in understanding! There’s nothing more beautiful. We surpass all other animals. And yet to me, what are we but dust? Men don’t interest me. No—women neither, but you’re smiling, so you must think they do.

So, in hindsight, this was perhaps not the best source to quote to defend humanity to Q. There might be a better quote that he could have used, but I'm not entirely sure.

Shakespeare wrote a lot of depressing stuff, and I'm not sure there would be a much better, more positive quote that Picard could have read to Q.


So what do you think? So you think there would be a much better Shakespearean quote to show the potential nobility of man?

 

[Orac]

I've seen that episode and Picard prefaces the quote with "what Hamlet says with irony I say with conviction", so he's deliberately quoting it out of context to give the words a different meaning and says as much. I don't think it be a goof.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Yea, what Orac sayeth. The exact line is:

PICARD: Oh, no. I know Hamlet. And what he might said with irony, I say with conviction. What a piece of work is man. How noble in reason. How infinite in faculty. In form, in moving, how express and admirable. In action, how like an angel. In apprehension, how like a god.

 

[Trekker4747]

Yea, what Orac sayeth. The exact line is:

PICARD: Oh, no. I know Hamlet. And what he might said with irony, I say with conviction. What a piece of work is man. How noble in reason. How infinite in faculty. In form, in moving, how express and admirable. In action, how like an angel. In apprehension, how like a god.

Sir, I served with Hamlet. I knew Hamlet. Hamlet was a friend of mine. You're no Hamlet.

 

[Triskelion]

Interesting post. Hmm...

This above all, to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Or...

Tomorrow, tomorrow and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
Until the last syllable of recorded time.
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death.
Out! Out brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow,
A poor player that struts and frets
His hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more.
It is a tale told by an idiot,
Full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.


- which might have knocked Q down a few pegs.


I'm writing from memory, so it may not be precise. Any robot can Google it.

 

[Trek Survivor]

As others have said, Picard was well aware of Hamlet's intent with the line, but what he said with irony "I say with conviction - what a piece of work is man!" etc.

 

[Christopher]

There's a real goof associated with this passage in one of the episodes of Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman which featured a time-traveling H.G. Wells. I forget whether it was the first or second Wells episode, but he quoted "In apprehension how like a god," and interpreted "apprehension" in the sense of anxiety or nervous anticipation, rather than the intended sense of understanding and intellect (literally "grasp"). The real Wells would've known better. I always winced when I heard that line. (And since I'm about to start a rewatch of Lois & Clark, I'm likely to wince again.)

 

[Lance]

I've seen that episode and Picard prefaces the quote with "what Hamlet says with irony I say with conviction", so he's deliberately quoting it out of context to give the words a different meaning and says as much. I don't think it be a goof.

Correct. The whole point of the scene is that Picard knows the original quote is ironic, but he's using it in earnest in order to bait Q.

Love that scene, btw. Season 1 (and Hide & Q) often get kicked in the gut by the fandom, but I love scenes like this. In hindsight it was the scene which kind of laid down the tone for the next seven years of Picard/Q jousting.

 

[Starborn Dragon]

Ah, okay. I did miss the line where Picard says that.

Still, I think it is actually a mistake to use it. Taking things out of context is poor form.

 

[Christopher]

^Like using "The Undiscovered Country" to mean the future rather than the afterlife?

 

[Starborn Dragon]

^Like using "The Undiscovered Country" to mean the future rather than the afterlife?

How do you know the Future isn't the afterlife?



In this it was not meant to be arrogant, but an allegory. The commonality is the uncertainty of things, and the fear of death. If the Klingon had launched the war that the Federation feared, well, a lot of damage would be caused and a lot of people would be killed, and the Federation may not have survived such a war.

The Klingon were afraid that the Federation were going to wipe them out, and the Federation didn't know what was going to happen either.

People are always afraid of change. Change is often the end of things.

But change is also a new beginning in many cases.

But to call human beings noble and superior is a very arrogant thing to do. As well as potentially irrational. There is no reason to claim superiority just because of things like, gender, age, intellect, or color of the skin.
\
human beings are not special as they like to think they are.

 

[Christopher]

^Like using "The Undiscovered Country" to mean the future rather than the afterlife?

...

In this it was not meant to be arrogant, but an allegory. The commonality is the uncertainty of things, and the fear of death. If the Klingon had launched the war that the Federation feared, well, a lot of damage would be caused and a lot of people would be killed, and the Federation may not have survived such a war.

Yeah, but it's a weak allegory. The thing is, Nicholas Meyer had originally planned to use The Undiscovered Country as the title for his first Trek film, in which death -- particularly the death of Spock -- played a key role. But the studio didn't like that title, so it became The Vengeance of Khan instead, then finally The Wrath of Khan (to avoid confusion with Star Wars: Revenge of the Jedi, which then ended up being Return of the Jedi anyway). So when Meyer finally got to direct another Trek movie, he reused the title he'd wanted to use before, but its original intent as a metaphor for death didn't fit, so he had to throw in lines where the characters explained that "the undiscovered country" meant the future, which just made them sound like they didn't know their Shakespeare as well as they claimed.

But to call human beings noble and superior is a very arrogant thing to do. As well as potentially irrational.

Except it's the same thing that Star Trek has always been saying for nearly 50 years now. It's always been about the limitless potential of humanity. And Picard isn't saying humans are better than any other species; there's nothing in the Hamlet quote about that, since Shakespeare and his audience didn't know about aliens. He's just saying that humanity is capable of great things, and that's Star Trek's mission statement.

 

[Starborn Dragon]

^Like using "The Undiscovered Country" to mean the future rather than the afterlife?

...

In this it was not meant to be arrogant, but an allegory. The commonality is the uncertainty of things, and the fear of death. If the Klingon had launched the war that the Federation feared, well, a lot of damage would be caused and a lot of people would be killed, and the Federation may not have survived such a war.

Yeah, but it's a weak allegory. The thing is, Nicholas Meyer had originally planned to use The Undiscovered Country as the title for his first Trek film, in which death -- particularly the death of Spock -- played a key role. But the studio didn't like that title, so it became The Vengeance of Khan instead, then finally The Wrath of Khan (to avoid confusion with Star Wars: Revenge of the Jedi, which then ended up being Return of the Jedi anyway). So when Meyer finally got to direct another Trek movie, he reused the title he'd wanted to use before, but its original intent as a metaphor for death didn't fit, so he had to throw in lines where the characters explained that "the undiscovered country" meant the future, which just made them sound like they didn't know their Shakespeare as well as they claimed.

But to call human beings noble and superior is a very arrogant thing to do. As well as potentially irrational.

Except it's the same thing that Star Trek has always been saying for nearly 50 years now. It's always been about the limitless potential of humanity. And Picard isn't saying humans are better than any other species; there's nothing in the Hamlet quote about that, since Shakespeare and his audience didn't know about aliens. He's just saying that humanity is capable of great things, and that's Star Trek's mission statement.

Except for one thing.

Human beings can be a great people without arrogance and haughtiness.

That is one of the biggest messages of Star Trek.

Arrogance and haughtiness only leads to atrocities and other assorted nastiness because of the expectation that since we are superior you have to obey us and follow our example or we get to hurt you.

Which is perhaps one of the things the Q were concerned about, and most definately the thing that Vulcans were most concerned about during archer's time.

And history is also replete with examples of human arrogance and the atrocities that mentality causes. Even in the modern age a lot of infighting in America is basically caused by this mentality.

But also remember too, the trial never ends.

 

[Christopher]

I think you're reading too much into it. In the context of the scene, Q is using (mangled) Shakespeare quotes to justify his own arrogant dismissal of human worth, and specifically cites Hamlet. So Picard responds by using a Hamlet quote. That doesn't mean he literally lives his life according to that quote; it just means it was applicable to that particular discussion.

You're also forgetting what Picard said after he quoted that passage:

Q: Surely you don't really see your species like that, do you?
PICARD: I see us one day becoming that, Q. Is that what concerns you?

So Picard is winding Q up by suggesting that he's worried that humanity may one day be able to compete with the Q, that maybe his condescension and bullying of humans reflects his own insecurity. Picard's not being arrogant, he's countering Q's arrogance.

 

[Starborn Dragon]

Picard could be wrong in his assessment. While Q is an ass, sometimes there is method in his madness and he does do the right thing to teach people, such as alerting Picard to the Borg in order to kick him in the arse for being arrogant.

You see, that's the problem with greatness. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

And that's the thing about people, even in star Trek. Humans expect and demand that everybody else be like them, which was the huge problem Spock was having early on in TOS.


How much more exaggerated would that be if we became entities like the Q?