Chancellor Martok in the Litverse

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Even though, in "Reunion," Gowron offered K'ehleyr a seat on the Council if she backed his candidacy. But then, Gowron always was a hypocrite.

Yes, he was. He blamed other people (Martok) for his mistakes but never hesitated to come down hard on others who were merely being honest with him (Worf); if you ask me, the Klingon High Council was nothing more than a glorified good ole' boys network. That people could could challenge for the leadership of the Empire because they happened to be part of a certain bloodline (Toral being Duras' son, for instance) is proof of this.

--Sran

 

[Christopher]

...if you ask me, the Klingon High Council was nothing more than a glorified good ole' boys network.

It's a government of noble houses -- basically the House of Lords without the House of Commons. It's a deeply elitist, oligarchical system that serves only the wealthy landowners and their interests. Ezri was right to point out what a corrupt system it was, although she probably didn't go far enough. At least Martok was a commoner by birth. But I don't think he's done that much to reform the system.

Really, the surprising thing is that the warrior caste has managed to remain in power for over 200 years. You'd think a bunch of testosterone-poisoned bullies who think that qualification for leadership is based on your ability to win a swordfight would've driven the government into the ground after a couple of generations and provoked a populist uprising.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Can we avoid phrases like "testosterone poisoning", please? We don't need to encourage the false and all-too prevalent idea that testosterone is associated with violence and not, for example, an elevated sense of fairness....

(Which Klingon nobles don't have).

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I believe that Azetbur was the last female chancellor. Per TNG women were no longer allowed to serve on the High Council as of the 24th Century.

Even though, in "Reunion," Gowron offered K'ehleyr a seat on the Council if she backed his candidacy. But then, Gowron always was a hypocrite.

It's always seemed to me that Klingon law is malleable on the basis of personal charisma and power. There are probably all manner of laws and decrees that are either enforced with an iron fist, enforced in most incidences, largely overlooked unless some particular House needs making an example of, applied selectively as and when it benefits someone, or all-but ignored - and this would depend on which factions or even which individuals are in ascendance and what the current societal tolerances are. Kaarg may have decreed that no females can hold seats on the Council, but for all we know Gowron might relatively easily have declared that such a rule was no longer in effect. Might makes right in the Klingon Empire, with a huge amount of political manoeuvring draped over/resisting that basic model, so I've always assumed that the law is generally, in most things, whatever the current leadership declares it is, assuming that they're not politically obtuse enough to try and meddle with traditions and honour codes that are truly entrenched, or that significant power blocs have a lot invested in. I assume that the rules are "what the Chancellor can get away with, and what he can declare or push for without having enough of the populace mad enough to come at him full-on". Gowron presumably believed that he could get away with ending the prohibition on female Council members. Maybe no-one cared enough about that (at the moment anyway?) for it to truly affect his chances.

EDIT: Anyway, that's the nature of rules. Most people bend and stretch the rules for their own gain, while loudly decrying any violation from others. Thus the nature of rules is to chain the competition, and to provide a means by which community aggression can be bought to bear against those who threaten one's security/prosperity, or that of one's in-group. Rules are considered paramount in spite of the individual's own sense that they are rightly an exception, because the absence of a framework of rules and implied communal punishment for their violation is equated with chaos, and one need only look at portrayals like that of the Shadows on Babylon Five to understand what tribal beings understand by chaos. Most people are outwardly rebellious but inwardly conformist, they buck or bend the rules at every opportunity, but hold them sacred and inviolable all the same. Klingons I think are just more honest about it.

 

[Jarvisimo]

It's a government of noble houses -- basically the House of Lords without the House of Commons. It's a deeply elitist, oligarchical system that serves only the wealthy landowners and their interests.

Christopher, I must admit whilst this is the common perception of the Lords, this isn't actually the case!

 

[Christopher]

It's a government of noble houses -- basically the House of Lords without the House of Commons. It's a deeply elitist, oligarchical system that serves only the wealthy landowners and their interests.

Christopher, I must admit whilst this is the common perception of the Lords, this isn't actually the case!

Well, that's kind of what I meant. The House of Lords has the House of Commons to balance it, so together they're representative of the people as a whole. But the Klingon legislature is just nobles, so it doesn't have that balance. And thus it's a far more unjust, unrepresentative system than something like the British Parliament.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

We could all stand to be a little more Klingon. (Well, okay, not really. It's an awful, awful system they have in place, but then there's something almost admirable in their total refusal to accept that maybe something different might work better. Sheer bloody-mindedness has its charm, perhaps. But then, as I've said before, I like what the Klingons bring to the setting; they're interesting precisely because they're a headache that simply won't fit the Federation worldview. As enemies and allies both, they're completely problematic, and unlike any number of smaller political entities the Federation can't simply ignore them or do its own thing regardless; somehow, the UFP has to incorporate this troublesome reality of Klingons next door, and either way it's uncomfortable, and morally problematic.)

Also:

Overused, perhaps, but it couldn't help but come to mind.

"GLORY to you... and your HOUSE".

 

[Disco]

It's a government of noble houses -- basically the House of Lords without the House of Commons. It's a deeply elitist, oligarchical system that serves only the wealthy landowners and their interests.

Christopher, I must admit whilst this is the common perception of the Lords, this isn't actually the case!

What is the point of the expensive House of Lords?!

 

[Disco]

^ I'd just like to jump in here and point out that the last post and poster caused the forum list to contain this phrase:

"Chancellor Martok in the...
Disco"

Now THAT I'd like to see.

 

[Kilana2]

^ I'd just like to jump in here and point out that the last post and poster caused the forum list to contain this phrase:

"Chancellor Martok in the...
Disco"

Now THAT I'd like to see.

With Robert O' Reilly and J.G. Hertzler doing the Klingon Rap....

 

[Christopher]

"Chancellor Martok... in the library... with the bat'leth."

 

[Deranged Nasat]

^ The Tamarians are going to be very confused when they play Clue. "It's not a narrative metaphor, you idiots, it's an answer".

Anyway, to keep us on topic (the topic that matters):

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Doalittledance. Eatalittlegagh. Get down tonight!

 

[SicOne]

Azetbur was assassinated, If I'm not mistaken. Was she the last female chancellor? Being Klingon chancellor comes with certain risks and ones life expectancy is shortened, but it offers an opportunity to die in a challenge or to defeat ones opponents honorably.

I believe that Azetbur was the last female chancellor. Per TNG women were no longer allowed to serve on the High Council as of the 24th Century.

Wait, was Azetbur assassinated after an eighteen-year reign? And was it ever determined WHY females could not sit on the High Council?

 

[Sci]

Azetbur was assassinated, If I'm not mistaken. Was she the last female chancellor? Being Klingon chancellor comes with certain risks and ones life expectancy is shortened, but it offers an opportunity to die in a challenge or to defeat ones opponents honorably.

I believe that Azetbur was the last female chancellor. Per TNG women were no longer allowed to serve on the High Council as of the 24th Century.

Wait, was Azetbur assassinated after an eighteen-year reign? And was it ever determined WHY females could not sit on the High Council?

IIRC, KRAD's Lost Era novel The Art of the Impossible established that women were banned from the High Council and from becoming Chancellor by her successor, Kaarg. This was a reactionary measure taken in response to her relative progressivism.

 

[Sci]

Random thoughts:

My sense is that a Klingon Chancellor is like a British Monarch: They hold the position until such time as they die, and not a moment before. I doubt that there are any provisions in Klingon law for a Chancellor who wishes to cease being Chancellor -- it's probably literally never happened.

I do find myself wondering about the vocabulary of the Klingon Chancellorship. Is it better to use words like "office," "govern," and "resign?" Or better to use words like "throne," "reign," and "abdicate?" The Emperor may be the ceremonial monarch, but the Chancellorship does strike me as being very monarch-like in its functionality.

I also find myself wondering why Federation Standard/English translates the term Qang as "Chancellor." German Chancellors are so called because the administrators who headed the clerics at imperial palaces during the era of the Carolingian Empire issued deeds and capitularies -- administrators whose title, chancellor, was descended from the Latin term cancellarius, the scribes and ushers who sat on the lattice-works that separated judges from courts.

Maybe there's a similar history at work in the evolution of the Qang? Perhaps the Qang was originally a scribe or usher who served the Emperor on some sort of dais or lattice-work that separated him from the High Council? And then Federation translators, seeing the parallel between the evolution of the office of Qang and the evolution of the office of Kanzler in German history, decided to set "Chancellor" as the English/Federation Standard translation of Qang.

 

[DimesDan]

It's a government of noble houses -- basically the House of Lords without the House of Commons. It's a deeply elitist, oligarchical system that serves only the wealthy landowners and their interests.

Christopher, I must admit whilst this is the common perception of the Lords, this isn't actually the case!

That perception of the Lords is a common misconception of individuals who watched a lot of historical British dramas and rely on Wikipedia far too heavily for their research.

What is the point of the expensive House of Lords?!

As a form of balance against some of the bullshit that the Commons and Government try and push through. Of course with the Dickhead-in-chief putting more Tory peers in than any other in the last few years, this form of balance is becoming less likely.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I doubt that there are any provisions in Klingon law for a Chancellor who wishes to cease being Chancellor -- it's probably literally never happened.

I still wonder, actually, if Worf can be considered to have been Chancellor, in all but the official legal sense - which might seem a silly thing to say and an omission that renders the whole concept meaningless, except that with Klingons I get the impression that said technical legalities are relatively unimportant to defining the role. Where do you draw the line? Was Martok not technically chancellor until his return to Qo'noS in The Left Hand of Destiny? If he is considered Chancellor during the final few episodes of DS9, is Worf to all intents and purposes a forgotten Chancellor of the Empire? Whose one and only act was to abdicate and appoint another (admittedly the legal head of his House, but still). Not legally or officially recognized as a Chancellor, but occupying enough of a grey area that some histories might insist that between Chancellor Gowron and Chancellor Martok was Chancellor Worf, or argue for such?

I do find myself wondering about the vocabulary of the Klingon Chancellorship. Is it better to use words like "office," "govern," and "resign?" Or better to use words like "throne," "reign," and "abdicate?" The Emperor may be the ceremonial monarch, but the Chancellorship does strike me as being very monarch-like in its functionality.

Political terminology is your thing and not mine, of course, but I do find myself with the same dilemma. I tend to go with the latter, if only because the former set is less absolute and dramatic, and to my subjective assessment is more bureaucratic and cautious. The latter is more Klingon. Perhaps not technically justifiable, but as you say, the flavour is a suitable fit.

I also find myself wondering why Federation Standard/English translates the term Qang as "Chancellor." German Chancellors are so called because the administrators who headed the clerics at imperial palaces during the era of the Carolingian Empire issued deeds and capitularies -- administrators whose title, chancellor, was descended from the Latin term cancellarius, the scribes and ushers who sat on the lattice-works that separated judges from courts.

Maybe there's a similar history at work in the evolution of the Qang? Perhaps the Qang was originally a scribe or usher who served the Emperor on some sort of dais or lattice-work that separated him from the High Council? And then Federation translators, seeing the parallel between the evolution of the office of Qang and the evolution of the office of Kanzler in German history, decided to set "Chancellor" as the English/Federation Standard translation of Qang.

That seems very reasonable to my admittedly far-less-knowledgeable-than-you-on-the-subject eye. The Chancellor does seem to be distinct from the High Council he leads, and is clearly some sort of functional replacement for the position of emperor (before the emperor was reinstated in line with what Trek lit has amusingly established as the Romulan model), so whatever role it developed out of probably supported the Emperor's position in some usefully administrative way?

 

[Jarvisimo]

It's a government of noble houses -- basically the House of Lords without the House of Commons. It's a deeply elitist, oligarchical system that serves only the wealthy landowners and their interests.

Christopher, I must admit whilst this is the common perception of the Lords, this isn't actually the case!

Well, that's kind of what I meant. The House of Lords has the House of Commons to balance it, so together they're representative of the people as a whole. But the Klingon legislature is just nobles, so it doesn't have that balance. And thus it's a far more unjust, unrepresentative system than something like the British Parliament.

Sorry for the break; I meant that since 1997 there are no hereditary Lords - it's not a house of nobles. Instead they are by appointment - former ministers and parliamentariansl party donors; politicians; members of industry; doctors; scientists; experts; and ten bishops of the Church of England, who are a mix of lower and middle and upper class backgrounds, and whose elevation to the episcopacy is effectively by appointment.

Until then it was different of course! But the modern House is more of a random pot of experts and politically-tied members.

Also have you read Hillary Mantel's Wolf Hall and Bring Up the Bodies - you might like it for its examination of the changes to Parliamentary power in the sixteenth century. They are also beautiful.

It's a government of noble houses -- basically the House of Lords without the House of Commons. It's a deeply elitist, oligarchical system that serves only the wealthy landowners and their interests.

Christopher, I must admit whilst this is the common perception of the Lords, this isn't actually the case!

What is the point of the expensive House of Lords?!

Yeah that's what i think - it's to balance out the MPs, who are much more tied to whips, with people who have worked. It's too often the complaint about the Commons that they are mostly professional politicians; at least in the Lords are a more diverse range of world-ed members who can provide more expert opinion on Bills. They also serve to stall certain bills being pushed through the Commons by the Government, which may have been ill thought out or require further analysis. It's easy to critique the Lords - I used to - but then it became clear that the Lords can and do very important services. It's why I am opposed to another elected house - it will mean the same kind of people going into the Second House - rather than the genuine opportunity for different people in it (like the Bishops, or - love or hate him - Alan Sugar). I think what the House of Lords requires is refinement - it is good that former members of government across all parties are members, but it would also be good to add more people from different backgrounds relevant for society.

 

[Stevil2001]

I also find myself wondering why Federation Standard/English translates the term Qang as "Chancellor." German Chancellors are so called because the administrators who headed the clerics at imperial palaces during the era of the Carolingian Empire issued deeds and capitularies -- administrators whose title, chancellor, was descended from the Latin term cancellarius, the scribes and ushers who sat on the lattice-works that separated judges from courts.

Maybe there's a similar history at work in the evolution of the Qang? Perhaps the Qang was originally a scribe or usher who served the Emperor on some sort of dais or lattice-work that separated him from the High Council? And then Federation translators, seeing the parallel between the evolution of the office of Qang and the evolution of the office of Kanzler in German history, decided to set "Chancellor" as the English/Federation Standard translation of Qang.

Has Treklit retconned K'mpec into being a Chancellor? Because in the show, he's just called "leader of the (High) Council." Based on canon, is it possible to make Chancellor and Leader of the High Council two separate positions that are sometimes held by the same person? Like, K'mpec was the Leader of the High Council but not Chancellor, while Gowron was initially just Leader of the High Council, but also became Chancellor around 2372. (And maybe Gorkon and Azetbur were Chancellor, but not leaders of the High Council?) With historically, the Chancellor serving as an interface between the Leader of the High Council and the Emperor, as you say, but some power-hungry ruler took both titles for himself at some point.