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USS Pasteur miniature photos

The Pasteur never fires, Beverly never gives an order to fire anything at all, and once the sheilds are down, Worf says they are defenseless, which seems to imply they ahve no weapons.

However, there is this:

Picard: "Weapons status?"
Worf: "These weapons are no match for their shields."

So there is every excuse for the presence of those four phaser strips, plotwise. And I doubt the line would have been written differently even had a different-looking model been used for the Pasteur.

...No doubt Starfleet argues anyway that its phasers are "not weapons of war" but general tools or whatever.

Timo Saloniemi
 
These pics are great. Makes one wonder what other masterpieces Bill "I also designed the Excelsior" George built FOR FUN, hidden in his garage.

I would love to see photos of his study models from STIII, including the Excelsiors, the Grissoms, and the Merchantmen. But he may no longer have the models in his possession or took pics of them back in the day.

He told me he has a BOP study model stashed someplace.

BTW, the outdoor photos look like they were taken outside ILM's old Kerner facility in San Rafael, CA, which is now 32TEN Studios.
 
Trek nomenclature is rarely that specific. But I wouldn't imagine Bev commanding anything BUT a giant mobile sickbay, so...

These pics are great. Makes one wonder what other masterpieces Bill "I also designed the Excelsior" George built FOR FUN, hidden in his garage.

Mark

Two words: Heck. YEAH!!!

I wouldn't've guessed this was a model built just for fun!
 
Those things in front may not all be torpedo tubes. Timo makes a good point with regard to the "caliber" of the multiple tube diameters. There may be multi-purpose functions here, and Ithekro's tongue-in-cheek "phaser scalpel" comment may not be too far off. Some of the holes may be for force-docking procedures when a ship they're trying to board is physically sealed and transporters and/or shuttles may be inoperable, unavailable or unusable for some reason. I could see this bit in the front serving as a series of multiple docking rings and high-energy plasma hull-cutters to pierce the hull of such a disabled vessel and extract its inhabitants. Sure, there could be a torpedo launcher or two in there, but I think there's more going on with these greebles than we ever realized. If true, major kudos to Bill George for really thinking through the utility within the design.
 
Even a hospital ship would need phasers if only to shoot down attacking missiles.

When does that ever happen in Star Trek?

From "Patterns of Force":

CHEKOV: Spacecraft approaching from inner planet.
KIRK: From Ekos?
SPOCK: Yes, but it must be a Zeon ship. Zeons do have a crude interplanetary capability. Reaction powered. A small rocket. It is on an intercept course. That would mean it has sophisticated detection devices which neither Zeon nor Ekos should have.
KIRK: Have you raised anyone, Lieutenant?
UHURA: Nothing, sir.
SPOCK: Captain, it's an unmanned probe which seems to be carrying a warhead.
KIRK: Stand by phasers.
CHEKOV: Phasers ready.
KIRK: Range, Mister Chekov?
CHEKOV: Two thousand kilometres, closing fast.
KIRK: Fire.
 
Also, in the first battle of ST2, it seems Kirk is trying to get Sulu to shoot down Khan's torpedo with phasers, but Sulu says it's too late.

Shooting down missiles aimed at third parties is relatively common compared to this. It happens at both the opening and closing battles of STXI, Worf does it in "The Price", and Worf says it's possible but difficult in ST:GEN (where he faces a warp-speed missile launched from an unknown spot).

I'm not sure round things at the bow of a starship ought to have anything to do with weapons as the first assumption. Might be deflector dishes. Might be sensor orifices. Might be where the bodies are dumped when surgery doesn't quite work...

Timo Saloniemi
 
While I don't think a hospital ship should have some crazy number like 10 torpedo launchers and 50 phaser banks, I don't think having a couple of torpedo launchers and the bare minimum number of phaser arrays to get full spherical firing coverage is out of line. They shouldn't be firing first but they definitely shouldn't be 100% defenseless either
 
One wonders... Are torpedoes good defensive weapons? Especially ones firing forward and therefore of little use in discouraging pursuit?

Trek is lamentably simplistic in its use of futuristic weapons, at least from the viewpoint of us starship freaks. Real ships may have various calibers and types of guns, various types of ballistic and aerodynamic missiles, torpedoes, rockets, depth charges, lasers and whatnot. Starships have phasers and torpedoes, with no known qualitative differences between the sometimes quoted phaser models, or, say, between torpedoes and microtorpedoes. It would be satisfying to assign at least some sort of a tactical difference to phasers vs. torpedoes, and possibly then use this to explain why so many starship types appear to lack torpedo launchers altogether. But such an explanation might undermine efforts to let the Pasteur have torpedoes...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Perhaps the ship design was not that of a hospital ship, but Pasteur was converted for that task from the basic design, leaving the torpedo tubes in place in case she was ever converted to another use. The tubes might not have fuctioning bay behind them, or even be carrying torpedoes.
 
Well, torpedos must by nature be effective, otherwise Starfleet would not have continued equiping every standard starship with them for almost two hundred years.

The effectiveness must depend upon the capacity load and the enemy you are up against. Examples: a Klingon Bird of Prey with sheilds down in TNG time can be destroyed by one torpedo, while the Enterprise D can take several hits (even to a nacelle) and not blow. While in the TOS movie era we had Federation ships taking several hits and not blowing, meanwhile a Klingon Bird of Prey took multiple hits from two ships before it blew; if it had been the Grisson firing, for example, they might have a limited load and might not be able to get off enough shots to destroy the enemy, meanwhile the Grisson went out with one shot sheilds down.
Meanwhile the Enterprise D was able to lay so many down upon a Borg cube that had it been an enemy vessel, it would have been destroyed a few times over.


If, sadly once again, we take Voyager into account, we saw in "Message in a Bottle" the experimental Federation ship fire a torpedo which changed course and slowed down with the Doctor's poor commands, suggesting that either you can alter the direction of a torpedo instead of firing straight ahead or that at least the new vessel has torpedos capable of doing so. And a torpedo doesn't necessarily have to be fired; while I don't recall this ever happening, you could lay hot one out in battle and detonate them by computer control as the enemy vessel passed over it.


There must be a different in prcision for phasers. I recall times when a captain wanted a part of a ship disabled and phasers was always the suggestion. That would seem to be a hard thing to achieve with a torpedo. It's like eye surgery with either a laser or a large carving knife.
 
Well, torpedos must by nature be effective, otherwise Starfleet would not have continued equiping every standard starship with them for almost two hundred years.

Yet we have no evidence that every ship (or even every combat ship) has those. Many lack both anything that might look like a torpedo launcher, and visuals or dialogue mentions of their use, either in combat or for other applications.

So we don't know the role of the torpedoes, but we have reason to think it's a limited one, even in terms of combat...

While in the TOS movie era we had Federation ships taking several hits and not blowing, meanwhile a Klingon Bird of Prey took multiple hits from two ships before it blew

Yes, we probably always have to consider not only the differences between the ships targeted, but also between the torps used. Starfleet explicitly uses torps with variable yield, ranging from one-shot-blows-up-(unshielded)-fellow-starship, as in "Unnatural Selection", to "But that won't even-!", as per "Redemption II".

As for TUC, though, the BoP need not have withstood multiple torpedo hits - it simply blew up while multiple torpedoes were lobbed at it. Overkill never hurts.

This assumes the battle, like many others, might have been shown in slow motion, with no appreciable separation between the torpedoes...

I recall times when a captain wanted a part of a ship disabled and phasers was always the suggestion.

Indeed. OTOH, even when Kirk wanted his enemies disabled, his choice sometimes was a torpedo spread. Probably there is enough precision control over yield to allow torpedoes to be used nonlethally, even if specific targeting of enemy ship components is beyond the capabilities.

Using torps as "Captor mines" is a neat idea that only alien civilizations appear to practice (VOY "Warhead"). Maneuvering has always been one of their abilities, though: we see the spiraling of that torp in TUC even though the only part where McCoy and Spock probably had time to make modifications was the seeker, and we see the veering off of that torp in TNG "Genesis". Heck, TOS "The Changeling" already appears to feature an over-the-shoulder shot, with Kirk arming forward torps and firing against a target at a bearing of 123.18!

Timo Saloniemi
 
Torpedo/phaser yields and accuracy were all contingent on plot and the whim of the writer of that week's episode. To ascribe a scientific level of consistency to such a thing is futile, IMO. Hell, torpedoes and phasers were supposed to be FTL weapons to keep up with ships in battle under high warp, and yet we have situations like what we saw in TOS' "Wink of an Eye", where Scalosians were able to step out of the way of a hand-phaser discharge (ostensibly with a similar technological foundation to the larger versions hard-mounted on ships' hulls), or in First Contact where the Enterprise-E's quantum torpedoes looked like a duck lazily paddling across a lake for dramatic effect towards the Phoenix floating along at sublight speeds. Just doesn't track, I'm afraid...
 
Well, yes, but the inner nerds of us want to try and rationalize things when it looks like we might be able to based on passed dialogue and scenes.
 
All ships of peace have torpedoes! ;)

The Pasteur's final appearance is an odd mix of 22nd and 24th century features, especially the elongated windows.
The original blueprint for the model (which is also included in this release) shows much fewer and more TOS-like windows.

Engine upgrades over the years I can accept, but who on earth would sanction perforating an antique hull will all those hulls, just to give the occupants a better view? Fortunately this doesn't seem to be the case, as the registry is NCC-58925, placing its construction well within the 24th century. The question is then; why would starship designers return to a spherical rather than a saucer as the primary module?

Lots of questions, but regardless I am really happy that these images have been released, it is a great model. Thanks to all involved!
You're assuming a saucer is better than a sphere in every way. The Pasteur shows a sphere must have worthwhile advantages, and likely tradeoffs in comparison to a saucer, or any other bow configuration.

Spheres have the highest internal volume for the lowest surface area, and are nominally saucer like in top-down profile.
Well, torpedos must by nature be effective, otherwise Starfleet would not have continued equiping every standard starship with them for almost two hundred years.
Yet we have no evidence that every ship (or even every combat ship) has those. Many lack both anything that might look like a torpedo launcher, and visuals or dialogue mentions of their use, either in combat or for other applications.

So we don't know the role of the torpedoes, but we have reason to think it's a limited one, even in terms of combat...
One designer decided phasers would not work during warp, and envisioned torpedoes as warp capable chase guns, thus the fore and aft locations of launchers. Or, perhaps one thought of them more like the guns of a fighter. However, there are a bunch of episodes with at-warp phaser fire. Additionally, there are plenty of episodes with torpedoes capable of turning quite capably.

The notable capabilities of torpedoes are range, penetration of surfaces, and precision fire. In Voyager several torpedoes are fired aft while at warp, to a chasing weapon. Several billion kilometers are mentioned. A phaser has never fired, nor mentioned to have been fired, at such a distance. Torpedoes should also be capable of flying ballistically in orbits, which would allow them to fire around planets or across systems.

In TNG torpedoes, or their casings, have been used to deliver packages below planetary surfaces or into suns.

In the movie, when facing "god," a low yield torpedo is used with great precision.

There is some indication in DS9 that torpedoes are stronger than phasers per shot. Comparing how many shots it takes to kill various vessels in DS9, torpedoes tend to be four times more powerful than the individual phaser pulses of the Defiant. I think the quantum torpedoes come out anywhere from equal to 8 times more powerful. Even if they were equal in power to a starship's phasers, that would still mean they should be more powerful than a fighter's phasers; the Peregrine/Federation Fighters, and Data's Scout from Insurrection both fired torpedoes.

The Bussard collectors on the Scout are actually meant to be torpedo tube muzzles, but the model doesn't follow the concept art for some reason.

Over all, torpedoes are versatile, offer non-line-of-sight attack options, exotic package delivery, and enhanced range. Phasers have unlimited ammunition, so long as the ship has fuel, and great precision in their own right.
 
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In Voyager several torpedoes are fired aft while at warp, to a chasing weapon. Several billion kilometers are mentioned. A phaser has never fired, nor mentioned to have been fired, at such a distance.
Actually, and not surprisingly, there are exceptions to this. The characteristics of Trek weapons are not to be found in designer intent, but in the sum total of on-screen foul-ups, and this is true of phaser or general death ray range as well.

For example, in "Balance of Terror", after the hair-raising flight from the plasma weapon, Kirk opens up with phasers against an enemy he just fled from for more than a minute at "emergency warp". The phasers are effective at this range that must amount to light-minutes at the very least, and more probably is light-hours or even light-days.

There is some indication in DS9 that torpedoes are stronger than phasers per shot. Comparing how many shots it takes to kill various vessels in DS9, torpedoes tend to be four times more powerful than the individual phaser pulses of the Defiant.
Yet in the big fight of "Way of the Warrior", a single phaser blast vaporizes a BoP, but four torpedo hits are needed to turn a battle cruiser into shrapnel...

Generally, a torpedo in flight looks so impressive that it's nice to have several. OTOH, Trek has established the pattern of every ship in the TNG era only ever firing one beam at a time, and generally sticks to that. This biases the combat record somewhat!

I think the quantum torpedoes come out anywhere from equal to 8 times more powerful.
I don't think we ever saw a quantum torpedo kill in DS9 (because this time, a pulse phaser burst actually is visually more impressive than a torpedo launch). And a volley of four just slightly dented a Keldon in "Defiant", and was the weapon of choice for Tom Riker when he intended to disable rather than kill. Also interestingly, quantum torpedoes are freely used at close ranges, suffering from none of the angst associated with photon torpedo proximity detonation. It could be argued quantums are either markedly weaker than photons by default, or then at least more easily scaled down to very low yield levels than photons are.

the Peregrine/Federation Fighters, and Data's Scout from Insurrection both fired torpedoes.
...But in "The Maquis", those fighters made the biggest impact when using their beam weapons, either the steerable bow phaser emitter or the pulse-firing wingroot cannon. Torpedoes had little effect on Sisko's runabout team. And torpedoes in "Sacrifice of Angels" also had little or no effect: besides producing those gasoline explosions against the hulls of Galors, they created no known damage and were considered a nuisance that only had a psychological effect on the Cardassians. A similar attack by small craft against a Galor in "Preemptive Strike" had more success when the fighters stuck to beam weapons (some of which Gul Evek classified as Type 8 phasers, and apparently considered the most threatening of the lot).

Over all, torpedoes are versatile, offer non-line-of-sight attack options, exotic package delivery, and enhanced range. Phasers have unlimited ammunition, so long as the ship has fuel, and great precision in their own right.
Agreed on all counts.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Also interestingly, quantum torpedoes are freely used at close ranges, suffering from none of the angst associated with photon torpedo proximity detonation. It could be argued quantums are either markedly weaker than photons by default, or then at least more easily scaled down to very low yield levels than photons are.

Or quantum torpedoes have a sort of shaped charge that keeps the blast from effecting the firing ship while photon torpedoes are more generally a sphere of destruction.

(Side note: In the new Space Battleship Yamato 2199 movie the Comet Empire ships used a weapon that at least visually looks like a red TMP photon torpedes, but is specifically called a quantum torpedo in Japanese.)
 
The mroe I think about it, the more I liek to pretend quantum torpedoes never happened. Which is made easier by writing off Trek's VIII, VIIII and X.
 
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