Transporters as Weapons

[Crazy Eddie]

Still a victim of its own inconsistencies and stupidity (i.e. the plot being stupid). If Nero's ship is so slow, how did he get 85LY to Vulcan so quickly?

Who said Nero's ship was slow? It's faster than the damaged Enterprise. Not MUCH faster, but fast enough that they can't easily catch up to it without repairing their engines first. And this at a time when Nero isn't actually in a hurry to get anywhere.

If his ship is awesome enough to destroy 47 Klingon ships built for battle and then take on 7 Federation ship and any number of Vulcan ships, why would he need the defence codes?

Probably the same reason he lured Starfleet into an ambush instead of just warping into Earth orbit and curb-stomping them: Because Narada, for all its power, is far from invincible.

Also, circumstantial evidence from TOS and STID would seem to suggest that our estimate of Klingon military prowess in the 23rd century is greatly exaggerated. They were a major military power in the 22nd century, true, but it seems the D7 class starship -- the workhorse of their fleet -- is at least a century old in the TOS era; that, plus the ascension of a new "warrior class" into positions of political power probably means the Klingons are experiencing a period of profound stagnation.

Nero was able to crush a fleet of powerful 23rd century starfleet ships. I'm guessing that a larger fleet of 22nd century ships wouldn't have been that much of a challenge either.

Plus, if his ship has been upgraded by V'Ger, doesn't V'Ger already know how to disable Earth's defences (although I haven't read the comic so I have no idea how this went down)?

V'ger dragged the codes out of the Enterprise computer just before it assimilated Ilia. Even assuming Narada used the same trick V'ger did to disable the defense grid (it might have, who knows?) Nero knows enough about Starfleet defenses from A HUNDRED YEARS AGO to take a guess at how to go about it.

More importantly, Kirk and Spock don't know that he is going to travel slow to get the defence codes, or how long that will take (he could speed up as soon as he has them, which could be 5 minutes into his trip).

No, but they can do the math, and they know that Nero would have to completely drop out of warp in order for them to overtake him before he gets to Earth.

It's a good job the universe was onside for the heroes because both the heroes and villains were pretty clueless.

Not to be a jerk, but when you start with the assumption that "they should have outer defenses!" and then arrive at "the good guys never use them and the bad guys act like they're not there," your starting assumption is obviously flawed.

If Sol has any defenses at all, they're arranged specifically to prevent bad guys from entering Earth orbit. If the are other defenses in the Sol system, they're defending the other major planets of the system that are home to things the Federation cares about. There are probably ways of beefing up that defense with mobile weapons platforms, drones, satellites, etc. But this is peacetime; in the TOS era they'd still be nine years away from war with the Klingons and then only a border war fought exclusively on their respective frontiers.

Back to weaponising transporters: would it have been safer to beam an explosive onto the bridge of Nero's ship, and/or the area of the ship that deploys the mining platform rather than send two men into the bowels?

Assuming you know where the bridge of Nero's ship is. Also, assuming you can send a bomb big enough to disable the Narada without killing Captain Pike. Also, assuming that detonating Nero's ship won't also detonate the red matter and lead to the Earth being sucked sideways down a massive black hole.

Also, Narada's shields are down at the time they beam aboard; if Enterprise had enough firepower to disable the Narada conventionally, they might as well just open fire.

 

[Pauln6]

Borg tech helps to explain why a simple mining vessel is so awesome.

They don't have enough firepower to destroy the ship. I was thinking more of saving Earth by crippling the platform or taking out the people running the platform. Not a perfect plan but then neither is sending in two men. You'd be risking Jupiter at that point but they detonate all the red matter very close to the Sol system anyway and we don't hear of any negative effects. I suppose the only source of info is Spock and what they saw. If Spock doesn't know where the bridge is they could only target the platform, which would be a temporary fix.

Just found a page on ex-astris-scientia looking at inconsistencies with NuTrek. Apparently the fleet travels from Earth to Vulcan at Warp 65 lol. Why didn't they turn into lizards? It's nice to see that brainier people than me spotted similar inconsistencies.

This is actually a fun nerd exercise to display the casual silliness of the NuTrek timescales:


Earth to Vulcan @ TOS Warp 8 = 11.4 days
Earth to Vulcan @ TNG Warp 8 = 5.7 days
Earth to Vulcan @ NuTrek Warp 8 = 38.8 minutes (equivalent to TNG Warp 9.9999)


Qu'onos to Vulcan @ TNG Warp 9.995 = 1 day
Vulcan to Earth @ TNG Warp 9.995 = 4.8 hours


Vulcan to Earth @ TNG Warp 4 = 57 days (58.4 after travelling in the wrong direction for a day)
Vulcan to Andor @ TNG Warp 4 = 46.7 days
Andor to Earth @ TNG Warp 8 = 3.9 days (faster by 6 days)
Andor to Earth @ NuTrek Warp 8 = 26 minutes (faster by 10 days)


Being the only ship in quadrant really isn't much of a bar to someone else getting in on the action any more is it?


Implying that the Enterprise is one of a handful of ships that has 23rd century transwarp is an interesting patch but the relative speeds are still hokey. Obviously we can't assess NuTrek Warp 4 very well but based on travel time to Vulcan we can assume that the Laurentian system must be about 600 light years away from Earth since none of the escaping vessels are able to get a message to a closer ship or station so that the transwarp ships in the fleet can speed to Earth at the same speed that the Enterprise reached Vulcan. But that won't work since how long would it take non-transwarp ships to get there for the manoeuvres? So that means the fleet is much closer but there are no other ships that can travel that fast apart from the handful we see on Earth?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

TOS/TNG/nuTrek travel times are all pretty much identical when compared to real-life travel times.

 

[JES]

Borg tech helps to explain why a simple mining vessel is so awesome.

They don't have enough firepower to destroy the ship. I was thinking more of saving Earth by crippling the platform or taking out the people running the platform. Not a perfect plan but then neither is sending in two men. You'd be risking Jupiter at that point but they detonate all the red matter very close to the Sol system anyway and we don't hear of any negative effects. I suppose the only source of info is Spock and what they saw. If Spock doesn't know where the bridge is they could only target the platform, which would be a temporary fix.

Just found a page on ex-astris-scientia looking at inconsistencies with NuTrek. Apparently the fleet travels from Earth to Vulcan at Warp 65 lol. Why didn't they turn into lizards? It's nice to see that brainier people than me spotted similar inconsistencies.

This is actually a fun nerd exercise to display the casual silliness of the NuTrek timescales:


Earth to Vulcan @ TOS Warp 8 = 11.4 days
Earth to Vulcan @ TNG Warp 8 = 5.7 days
Earth to Vulcan @ NuTrek Warp 8 = 38.8 minutes (equivalent to TNG Warp 9.9999)


Qu'onos to Vulcan @ TNG Warp 9.995 = 1 day
Vulcan to Earth @ TNG Warp 9.995 = 4.8 hours


Vulcan to Earth @ TNG Warp 4 = 57 days (58.4 after travelling in the wrong direction for a day)
Vulcan to Andor @ TNG Warp 4 = 46.7 days
Andor to Earth @ TNG Warp 8 = 3.9 days (faster by 6 days)
Andor to Earth @ NuTrek Warp 8 = 26 minutes (faster by 10 days)


Being the only ship in quadrant really isn't much of a bar to someone else getting in on the action any more is it?


Implying that the Enterprise is one of a handful of ships that has 23rd century transwarp is an interesting patch but the relative speeds are still hokey. Obviously we can't assess NuTrek Warp 4 very well but based on travel time to Vulcan we can assume that the Laurentian system must be about 600 light years away from Earth since none of the escaping vessels are able to get a message to a closer ship or station so that the transwarp ships in the fleet can speed to Earth at the same speed that the Enterprise reached Vulcan. But that won't work since how long would it take non-transwarp ships to get there for the manoeuvres? So that means the fleet is much closer but there are no other ships that can travel that fast apart from the handful we see on Earth?

Damn, even Star Trek has one plot hole after another. You would think if they were going to make a semi-reboot, they'd at least be consistent.

 

[Tarek71]

Damn, even Star Trek has one plot hole after another. You would think if they were going to make a semi-reboot, they'd at least be consistent.

This is a long standing problem. In "Broken Bow", we here that the NX-01 Enterprise can travel from Earth to Kronos in 4 days at a bit less than Warp 5, despite a stated speed for War 5 that wouldnt even get you to Alpha Centauri in 4 days.

But it is somewhat consistent with NuTrek speeds. The NuEnterprise can reached the Klingon neutral zone in what appeared to be mere minutes. And then on to the Klingon homeworld in Mudds ship in another quick hop.

How far in Kronos? IDK. Even if it were one of our nearest stars, the get there in minutes or hours involves colossal speeds. Obviously the w^3 scale referenced in "Broken Bow" is out. As are the TNG speeds.

If its 100 light years from here, to do it in four days is 25 light years a day. Thats about 9,125x the speed of light. To do it in an hour is 876,000x C. Thats better than Warp 95 on the w^3 scale.

But that would be only Warp 9.78 on the w^6 scale, which might be closer to the mark for NuTrek.

 

[Pauln6]

Damn, even Star Trek has one plot hole after another. You would think if they were going to make a semi-reboot, they'd at least be consistent.

If its 100 light years from here, to do it in four days is 25 light years a day. Thats about 9,125x the speed of light. To do it in an hour is 876,000x C. Thats better than Warp 95 on the w^3 scale.

But that would be only Warp 9.78 on the w^6 scale, which might be closer to the mark for NuTrek.

You can google the calculations so easily. For me the issue is not so much the speeds but the inconsistency and unintended consequences. If ships really could travel that fast, no star system would be safe from invasion, exploration on your own, like the 5 year mission would be a death sentence, and planets would deploy large fleets alongside automated defences to protect their homeworlds.

Same with the long range transporter. If a 23rd century shuttle transporter (not exactly cutting edge tech and not that powerful) can exceed 24th century distances with minimal modification and an algorithm (or Khan's hand held device) this re-writes a lot of Trek history. You don't need to orbit a planet to rain down your bio-weapon - you can travel 16 light years in 30 minutes, still be several light years from Earth, and beam your fatal toxin into the atmosphere without anybody even knowing you were ever there.

 

[Tarek71]

Sure, but that issue was always there in various forms. It's made worse by NuTrek tech, but the "only ship in range" always raised issues about how thinly protected are planets like Earth. In TMP, a threat coming through Klingon space, and there is only ONE ship? What if that were a Klingon fleet? A single ship, that isnt even ready and scheduled for launch, is all there is?

Certainly the NuTrek transporters make the problem worse. As does the travel time of seemingly minutes. But even V'Ger was only a couple/few days away from Earth after entering Federation space. It was a mere 4 days at roughly Warp 4.5 for the NX-01.

If it's 96 hours at Warp 4.5(ish), then how long at Warp 8? How many hours? This is not a new problem created by NuTrek.

Even with a few days to work with, Starfleet managed only one ship to confront V'Ger. One would think that between Earth and both neutral zones would be lots of ships and starbases. Especially since it takes only 4 days at even Warp 4.5 to travel from Earth to Kronos.

 

[Pauln6]

Sure, but that issue was always there in various forms. It's made worse by NuTrek tech, but the "only ship in range" always raised issues about how thinly protected are planets like Earth. In TMP, a threat coming through Klingon space, and there is only ONE ship? What if that were a Klingon fleet? A single ship, that isnt even ready and scheduled for launch, is all there is?

Certainly the NuTrek transporters make the problem worse. As does the travel time of seemingly minutes. But even V'Ger was only a couple/few days away from Earth after entering Federation space. It was a mere 4 days at roughly Warp 4.5 for the NX-01.

If it's 96 hours at Warp 4.5(ish), then how long at Warp 8? How many hours? This is not a new problem created by NuTrek.

Even with a few days to work with, Starfleet managed only one ship to confront V'Ger. One would think that between Earth and both neutral zones would be lots of ships and starbases. Especially since it takes only 4 days at even Warp 4.5 to travel from Earth to Kronos.

Yes but I think it is acknowledge that Broken Bow is just wrong. Clearly Archer knew that going by the book like Lt Saavik, weeks could seem like days... by the book.

TMP fudged a lot of things too. Space is big, and so would necessarily be thinly protected, which is why your homeworlds and highways between them should be very well patrolled and protected with ships, sensors, and waystations.

I'd always assumed that V'Ger's speed was much higher than Starfleet vessels could keep up with so the more sensible alternative would have been for V'Ger to meet and absorb the Federation fleet on the way to Earth, leaving the unfinished Enterprise as the last ship standing.

Alternatively, they could have flown out to intercept it and got left behind in its dust to the point where they couldn't catch up to beat it back to Earth. I would probably have pitched that battle at the same time that Spock had his telepathic moment and use that as a mysterious foreshadowing of what is to come and add in a bit more tension about Spock's motives later.

All of the movies have massive plot holes. My worry with NuTrek is the far-reaching consequences of upgrading all the technology might make the technology too magical for future storytelling. Give me the exciting common sense grunge of Alien over the empty flash and bang of Prometheus any day.

 

[Tarek71]

Broken Bow is just one installment of many in the super warp vs. slow warp issue that goes back a very long way. From TOS to NuTOS. There are a number of instances from various episodes and movies that show super warp as no biggie. 10,000s to 100,000's to 1,000,000s of times the speed of light. We are agreeing on this I think. The long standing nature of the inconsistencies.

NuTrek has problems in this area. And the Super Transporter is part of that.

Magic tech? Hard to say. Robots are virtually non existent in ST and AI is oddly primitive. Data is one of a kind in the latter 24th century and the legal issues surrounding him are treated as new, unsettled and novel when I think we will have Datas long before we have FTL propulsion. Robots should be everywhere by then. Indeed, long before then.

This is one area where the evolution of Trek tech seems too pessimistic. In other areas, like the Super Transporter, maybe it's too far the other way.

V'Ger? I just allow the writers to use the device of "only ship in range" for dramatic purposes. And I leave it right there. We cant determine much about its speed, except that it appears to have covered many galaxies in only a couple of hundred years. Of course, if its THAT fast, why not Klingon space to Earth in one second? It would spoil the plot I suspect.

As it is, the Klingon space to Earth trip doesnt say alot, except that V'Ger is traveling a little faster than the NX-01 but much slower than the NuEnterprise. Clearly well below the intergalactic transwarp super speeds it must be capable of.

 

[Ithekro]

I interpreted V'Ger as traveling aroubd Warp 7 the entire time. The Klingon ships managed to intercept it and were destroyed. However Starfleet, on seeing what this cloud could do to three Klingon warships and the speed it was going, figure there were no ships in range that could accomplish anything. The smaller Starfleet ships might not be able to handle warp 7 for long enough to keep up with V'Ger and certainly not fast enough to intercept it from their regular border patrol missions. The few Starships are likely too far away, or would also have issues catching V'Ger if it is maintaining warp 7 the whole way.

Enterprise had the advantage of coming from V'Ger's destination, and its new drives can maintain warp 7 easily without Scotty moaning about it like he use to about going over warp 6.

I seem to recall that the warp factor cubed theory was used for that film to make Enterprise's new top speed Warp Factor 12, because it could reach Vulcan in four days at those speeds. However, in thinking about it that cannot possibly be right. You can't maintain top speed for four days in a row, nor would Scott be telling Spock they can make it in four days in an apologetic tone if warp 12 was their top speed as that is much faster than the old ship pushing warp 8. Something is off with our notion of warp factor cubed, and its taken me far to many decades to realize it.

 

[Tarek71]

I seem to recall that the warp factor cubed theory was used for that film to make Enterprise's new top speed Warp Factor 12, because it could reach Vulcan in four days at those speeds. However, in thinking about it that cannot possibly be right. You can't maintain top speed for four days in a row, nor would Scott be telling Spock they can make it in four days in an apologetic tone if warp 12 was their top speed as that is much faster than the old ship pushing warp 8. Something is off with our notion of warp factor cubed, and its taken me far to many decades to realize it.

I think ditching the W^3 system is the right answer. GR originally had .73 light years per hour as the speed of the Yorktown in an early treatment for Trek. That's about 6, 394.8x C. Or Warp 18.56 on the W^3 scale.

But it's only warp 8.94 on a W^4 scale. That might be more like it. It's still falls far, far short of the stated speeds and travel times in various other episodes and films. But there is no one system that can account for all of them.

I think W^5 or W^6 might be even better. That speed would only be Warp 5.76 on the W^5 scale, which might sound like a more normal sustainable longer range cruising speed.

 

[Ithekro]

FASA maintained the W^3 scale for their TOS roleplaying game, but jumped to W^5 scale for their brief run into TNG era roleplaying. Though at Warp 10 you could cross the galaxy in roughly a year rim to rim.

 

[Sgt_G]

The game Star Fleet Battles also uses W^3 for tactical combat speeds, but in the sister game Prime Directive RPG, they use a different formula for speeds above Warp 3.2 as shown in the chart here: http://www.starfleetgames.com/documents/Warp_Speed_in_SFU.pdf

They don't provide the formula itself, but I reverse engineered the chart and found that up to Warp 8 there is a x64 multiplier, and higher multipliers above that. At Warp 9.5, it works out to over a half-million times speed of light, or about one light-year per minute .... from here to Alpha Centauri in under five minutes.

The way I explained this away in a fiction piece was: "Most people think of the warp field as being spherical, but in reality it's shaped more like a football. There's more to the math than speed equals cee times double-you cubed. There's another variable that kicks in once warp-factor exceeds three point one four one five nine, or pi. It's there at lower speeds, but is so close to zero," she paused, "Or is it one?" she asked herself, ashamed that she forgot such a basic formula, "Whatever. It cancels out. Below warp three, the 'football' is round. As speeds increase, the 'football' stretches out longer and longer. Below warp five, this variably is fairly small but still makes a difference, eight-thousand times light speed instead of one-twenty-five. But as the warp factor increases, this variable grows exponentially, so we're going about twenty-five times faster at warp nine than we were at warp seven." The engineer broke in, "And burning fuel about a hundred times faster. We might need to do a scoop and go soon."

 

[Tarek71]

Well, you need some sort of explanation for why Warp "factors" exist at all. Otherwise, why not just say "Set course for Vulcan, speed: 5,000c".

 

[Pauln6]

Well, you need some sort of explanation for why Warp "factors" exist at all. Otherwise, why not just say "Set course for Vulcan, speed: 5,000c".

My personal view is that warp speeds are not constant because gravity distorts space-time as well. Thus I think you should move faster in interstellar space. That's why you need navigators, to check that the computer is plotting the fastest course, which will typically involve avoiding dark matter clusters where possible.

On this basis, it might be possible to fudge a lot of the inconsistencies but probably not Broken Bow or NuTrek, which just go too far for where they are and what is stated on screen.

None of that really helps with the potential to weaponise long distance transporters though.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Implying that the Enterprise is one of a handful of ships that has 23rd century transwarp is an interesting patch but the relative speeds are still hokey.

Why? It's similar to the speed the Xindi Superweapon was traveling on its approach to Earth a hundred years earlier (and the VFX are even pretty similar). I just assumed the Abramsverse engineers managed to incorporate that technology, if highly inefficiently, into their flagship designs. After all, the transwarp vortexes the Xindi use are a mature technology when we see them in Enterprise; it's not experimental, they've been using it for years, maybe decades. The only drawback would be the fact that the conduits have distinct entry points (even if the exit points are somehow arbitrary). You think a hundred years of research and development is enough time for Starfleet to have MOSTLY solved that problem?

Obviously we can't assess NuTrek Warp 4 very well but based on travel time to Vulcan we can assume that the Laurentian system must be about 600 light years away from Earth

Doubtful. Starfleet rarely does fleet actions way out beyond the frontier (no strategic reason to, for that matter). It's probably closer than Kronos, which is now pegged at 112 light years. Still, at conventional speeds it takes a couple of days just to travel the dozen or so lightyears from Vulcan to Earth; 40 to 60 for Laurentean (STO puts it at about 60ish on the galaxy map) means a couple weeks' travel time if the entire fleet can sustain warp seven for a long duration.

Even if they have transwarp-capable ships in that fleet, Narada is still closer. Nero will get to Earth before any help can arrive. Spock and Kirk both know this and it's really just a question of whether or not to risk the entire ship on a longshot or sacrifice Earth to ensure Nero's defeat. There are, again, a lot of different options on the table, but it's just an ontological fact at this point that they could only really choose between one of those two outcomes and all the rest is just details.

So that means the fleet is much closer but there are no other ships that can travel that fast apart from the handful we see on Earth?

Probably. If you consider that the ships we see in STXI are unlike anything we've seen before or since -- much larger hulls, massive shuttlebays, heavier weapon compliments, enormous engineering complexes -- then they're probably a bunch of hangar queens: ships that spend almost as much time laid up in spacedock as they do exploring and patrolling. The simpler/smaller/more efficient designs have looser maintenance requirements and their engineers can overhaul their warp drives and impulse engines in the fields using spare parts from abandoned lithium cracking stations; they don't need to stay within a few days' travel of a dry dock, so they go to all kinds of interesting places way out in the ass end of space.

It could well be that Enterprise was the ship that was supposed to change all that, which might be why it's the first ship to get sent on an official five-year mission. None of the other big boats got that glory; their engines are too dodgy and too expensive to be left up to field repair.

 

[Pauln6]

Implying that the Enterprise is one of a handful of ships that has 23rd century transwarp is an interesting patch but the relative speeds are still hokey.

Why? It's similar to the speed the Xindi Superweapon was traveling on its approach to Earth a hundred years earlier (and the VFX are even pretty similar). I just assumed the Abramsverse engineers managed to incorporate that technology, if highly inefficiently, into their flagship designs.

Obviously we can't assess NuTrek Warp 4 very well but based on travel time to Vulcan we can assume that the Laurentian system must be about 600 light years away from Earth

Still, at conventional speeds it takes a couple of days just to travel the dozen or so lightyears from Vulcan to Earth; 40 to 60 for Laurentean (STO puts it at about 60ish on the galaxy map) means a couple weeks' travel time if the entire fleet can sustain warp seven for a long duration.

Even if they have transwarp-capable ships in that fleet, Narada is still closer. Nero will get to Earth before any help can arrive. Spock and Kirk both know this and it's really just a question of whether or not to risk the entire ship on a longshot or sacrifice Earth to ensure Nero's defeat. There are, again, a lot of different options on the table, but it's just an ontological fact at this point that they could only really choose between one of those two outcomes and all the rest is just details.

So that means the fleet is much closer but there are no other ships that can travel that fast apart from the handful we see on Earth?

Probably. If you consider that the ships we see in STXI are unlike anything we've seen before or since -- much larger hulls, massive shuttlebays, heavier weapon compliments, enormous engineering complexes -- then they're probably a bunch of hangar queens: ships that spend almost as much time laid up in spacedock as they do exploring and patrolling. The simpler/smaller/more efficient designs have looser maintenance requirements and their engineers can overhaul their warp drives and impulse engines in the fields using spare parts from abandoned lithium cracking stations; they don't need to stay within a few days' travel of a dry dock, so they go to all kinds of interesting places way out in the ass end of space.

That's why I said the problem was 'relative' speeds. The full speed of the Enterprise compared to the potential speed of the fleet compared to the the potential speed of Nero compared to the expressly stated significantly reduced capability of the Enterprise.

Spock does not raise the objection that the Enterprise, with reduced warp capability, would have no chance of catching a vessel that can travel from Klingon space to Vulcan in a day as one of his objections to Kirk's emotional plea to chase the ship. The priority at that point should be warning Earth, especially if they know (and they should know) that Pike knows how to disable the defence grid.

It works out because blah blah universe and the inexplicable stupidity of the villains not because of any ingenuity on the part of the characters.

But to get the thread back on track a bit, I wonder if a good tactic would have been to beam explosives or some device to fry electronic sensors, or even a bio-toxin capable to neutralsing a Vulcan to different parts of the ship to distract and help mask them beaming in their strike team. I know there would be a risk of killing Pike with explosives but it's a slim risk on a ship that size and anything that could increase their chances could be worth risking (and they don't actually know at that point if Pike is even alive). We also have to bear in mind that sending in a two man team has a massive chance of failure as well.

I've long held the view that it should have been a six man team including Uhura (who actually understands Romulan fluently unlike Spock but in any event the plan was to split up and Kirk speaks no Romulan), McCoy (to treat Pike), and two security officers (one for each strike team). Even so, with a two man team, you've got four pads going spare. Why not hedge your bets with a distraction. You could even send over security teams armed with explosives for sabotage although that seems like an unnecessary risk if you can just beam over the explosives. Just a thought.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

But to get the thread back on track a bit, I wonder if a good tactic would have been to beam explosives or some device to fry electronic sensors, or even a bio-toxin capable to neutralsing a Vulcan to different parts of the ship to distract and help mask them beaming in their strike team. I know there would be a risk of killing Pike with explosives but it's a slim risk on a ship that size and anything that could increase their chances could be worth risking (and they don't actually know at that point if Pike is even alive). We also have to bear in mind that sending in a two man team has a massive chance of failure as well.

All of which, Kirk himself probably would have thought of in hindsight. Here's hoping he's ever in an identical situation again where he can do something differently...

I've long held the view that it should have been a six man team including Uhura (who actually understands Romulan fluently unlike Spock but in any event the plan was to split up and Kirk speaks no Romulan), McCoy (to treat Pike), and two security officers (one for each strike team). Even so, with a two man team, you've got four pads going spare. Why not hedge your bets with a distraction.

Because they were trying to SNEAK onto the ship and steal the black-hole device and then quickly get OFF the ship without anyone noticing. This was supposed to be a burglary, not a gunfight.

The plan basically went to hell when the "empty cargo bay" they beamed into turned out to be full of heavily armed Romulan crewmen. After that it was pure improvisation.

Not that the ENTIRE PLAN wasn't one massive improvisation to begin with since they had basically ZERO chance of pulling it off even if everything worked. The point at which Nero would have lowered his shields to deploy the red matter, Sulu probably would have rushed into firing position and gone out in a blaze of glory.

You could even send over security teams armed with explosives for sabotage although that seems like an unnecessary risk if you can just beam over the explosives. Just a thought.

Have you seriously been watching Star Trek for 40-something years and are JUST NOW wondering why Kirk has to be the leader of every important away mission that leaves the ship? Or, for that matter, why he is always insanely under-staffed when he does it?

There's no specific reason for it. That's just how he rolls.

 

[Pauln6]

Because they were trying to SNEAK onto the ship and steal the black-hole device and then quickly get OFF the ship without anyone noticing. This was supposed to be a burglary, not a gunfight.

The plan basically went to hell when the "empty cargo bay" they beamed into turned out to be full of heavily armed Romulan crewmen. After that it was pure improvisation.

You could even send over security teams armed with explosives for sabotage although that seems like an unnecessary risk if you can just beam over the explosives. Just a thought.

Have you seriously been watching Star Trek for 40-something years and are JUST NOW wondering why Kirk has to be the leader of every important away mission that leaves the ship? Or, for that matter, why he is always insanely under-staffed when he does it?

There's no specific reason for it. That's just how he rolls.

Ha ha. True. But if that was our attitude we'd have nothing to talk about on the forums.

I don't think sneaking with two people is any easier than sneaking with four or with six for the mission they were trying to achieve. Kirk and Spock both nearly die because of lack of manpower. Kirk has to be saved by Pike at one point.

Even so, the whole notion of being able to sneak onto 23rd or 24th century vessels is hokey. The plan can only succeed if:
1. 24th century vessels can't detect and trace incoming transporter signals.
2. Nero's security sensors can't detect movement in parts of the ship where no personnel are supposed to be.
3. Nero's computers don't have security protocols to flag unusual searches.
4. Nero's automated doors don't log when they open and close in secure areas.

We have automated security systems NOW that can detect these things and even use facial recognition software to identify the people. Nero may have none of these things but Kirk doesn't have that information. That's why I speculate if things should have been done differently. I'm not one of those people who thinks NuKirk deserves promotion for failing to consider more sensible alternatives just because a massive gamble pays off. Mission specialist, perhaps, but captain of a ship, definitely not.

I would not say that other Trek always covers these ideas that well either but then I've always preferred earlier Trek episodes where landing parties consist of various personnel qualified for the mission rather than just Kirk, Spock, and McCoy.

It doesn't really matters whether Kirk had used a 6 man team or not, he would still have succeeded. With only 2 men, he just gets more of the glory. I'd rather see him succeed by being smart rather than by being lucky and we don't see enough of that in NuTrek. It's also worth pointing out that Troi failed her command exam because she was reluctant to delegate.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I don't think sneaking with two people is any easier than sneaking with four or with six for the mission they were trying to achieve. Kirk and Spock both nearly die because of lack of manpower. Kirk has to be saved by Pike at one point.

It's the SNEAKING OUT thing that's likely the problem. Easier to beam out two people than six, especially if they're beaming them from different locations. You're simply giving transporter technology ALOT more credit than it actually deserves: beaming people up is HARD.

Even so, the whole notion of being able to sneak onto 23rd or 24th century vessels is hokey.

"Hokey" isn't the word for this. You think it's not believable because of your assumptions about what their technology is capable of; those assumptions, as I've said, do not reflect anything that ever happens in Star Trek.

To wit:

The plan can only succeed if:
1. 24th century vessels can't detect and trace incoming transporter signals.

Which, on the whole, they can't.

2. Nero's security sensors can't detect movement in parts of the ship where no personnel are supposed to be.

Which CLEARLY they can't.

3. Nero's computers don't have security protocols to flag unusual searches.

Which they probably don't, but even if they did, Spock is a computer expert and is probably trained to get around that sort of problem.

4. Nero's automated doors don't log when they open and close in secure areas.

Which they probably don't. More importantly, even if they DID, that's a security feature designed to catch crewmembers who did something they weren't supposed to do. It's not even SLIGHTLY helpful in preventing a hostile boarding party from robbing you.

Your objections remind me of a conversation I had when I worked as a security guard. A red faced and sweating man ran up to my booth complaining that he had just seen two teenagers fighting in the station lobby and he demanded to know why the security team didn't do anything about it. I responded simply: "I did exactly what I'm required to do: I called the police, I filed a report, and I locked the doors to the platform.

Why did't I break up the fight, he demanded to know? Why didn't I intervene to keep train station customers from getting hurt? Why didn't I secure the lobby like I'm supposed to do? Is that gun just for show or what?

Because it's not my job to break up fights, only report them.
It's not my job to protect customers, only the railroad's property.
It's not my job to secure the lobby, only to inform someone when it isn't secure.
And yes, the gun is just for show. If I ever draw this weapon in anger it's because I am either way too frightened or way too pissed off to worry about keeping my job, because if I ever fire this gun, for ANY reason, they will fire me.

"Security" isn't about stopping criminals; that's what law enforcement is for. "Security" is about deterring criminals and then helping law enforcement catch them if deterrence doesn't work. Beyond that, the only real goal of a security policy is to limit the amount of damage a perpetrator can do if and when he manages to bypass security. So Kirk and Spock can steal a ship, rescue Pike, steal Ayel's lucky charms and draw smily faces and penises on Nero's trophy case; but they can't access engine control without a password, can't arm or disarm the weapons on a terminal that isn't already logged in, can't raise or lower the shields either.

We have automated security systems NOW that can detect these things and even use facial recognition software to identify the people. Nero may have none of these things but Kirk doesn't have that information.

Why would Kirk NEED that information? He's got no reason to assume Nero has top-notch intrusion detection systems wired all through his ship. Even the Enterprise' security system is only designed to keep people from tampering with equipment they haven't been authorized to use. It's doubtful the Narada's security is much tighter than that, and is undoubtedly LESS so, given that it is actually a civilian ship.

That's why I speculate if things should have been done differently.

Once again, your speculation is based on assumptions that of what should have been there as if Kirk should have made those very same assumptions. And once again, none of the things that "should" have been there actually WERE, so Kirk's failure to account for them isn't actually an error.

It doesn't really matters whether Kirk had used a 6 man team or not, he would still have succeeded. With only 2 men, he just gets more of the glory. I'd rather see him succeed by being smart rather than by being lucky and we don't see enough of that in NuTrek.

That's because Kirk is living proof of the fact that it's better to be lucky than smart.

Fortunately, he also hangs out with Spock, who is smart enough to save his ass when his supply of luck runs low.