Transporters as Weapons

[Pauln6]

NuTrek screws with this concept to such a degree for the sake of plot contrivance that you have to give up trying to explain it. If it is possible to transport a living being over several light years safely onto a ship at warp or another solar system, it would be child's play to cripple or destroy a ship as long as you have detected it on your sensors. Just beam away chunks of it before it can react or beam out as many life forms as you can detect and keep your new shiny ship for yourself.

That's one of those things that only SOUNDS easy. In actual practice it probably wouldn't be.

Transwarp beaming has a lot of potential as a sabotage/assassination weapon, used on a very small scale, under ideal circumstances with a lot of intelligence overhead and premeditation. Somewhere in the Abramsverse, if you dig deep enough you will probably find at least one instance of Section 31 or the Tal Shiar using a transwarp beaming device to snuff out some uppity Klingon general and make it look like an accident. It's an interesting kind of trick, but it's hardly a silver bullet.

Of course, this would lead to an arms race whereby all ships have shields up all of the time

I'm not convinced they don't. Starships run with navigational deflectors as standard practice, and space is full of cosmic rays and charged particles that are difficult to shield against effectively.

It seems to me that the ubiquity of basic navigational shielding is one of the reasons transporters prefer to beam people from one transporter device to another; that's just easier and safer with all other things interfering. Sophisticated Starfleet transporters probably have some kind of ECCM devices that can penetrate low-level shielding nine times out of ten, but high-level shielding is either too hard to penetrate or too dangerous to try.


Which is another thing I liked about the Abramsverse transporters. They depict the beaming process as a lot less "push the energize button and there he is" and a lot more "Have to keep the transporter beam perfectly focussed on that target for like eight seconds or nothing much will happen." Apparently all the various tricks for increasing transporter's efficacy -- including transwarp beaming -- are really just complicated mathematical algorithms that make targeting easier.


First of all, "internal sensors" in this context basically means surveillance cameras and intrusion alarms on hatches and consoles. Narada is a mining vessel, so its internal security is probably geared around preventing theft and keeping the crew from accessing materials without authorization. OTOH, Starfleet's "internal sensors" aren't much better, so Narada's security seems pretty standard (if you think about this, modern Naval vessels operate more or less the same way; security isn't monitoring the ship's internal spaces, just its equipment).

Second of all, again, Narada is a mining ship; it's crewed by a bunch of Romulan factory workers who are NOT, in fact, ninjas. There are probably two or three people on the entire ship who are actually trained to operate a transporter system, and they only have civilian training; the rest of the crew probably knows as much about transporter operations as YOU do.

This assumes, of course, that the Narada actually HAS a working transporter system. This isn't known for sure.

I agree that beaming into a ship at warp should be crazy hard but then if all you are beaming is a chemical weapon, you don't have to be anywhere near as accurate as with a living being. Beaming onto a ship that isn't at warp should be much easier, especially with non-living matter so then it just becomes about distance. Ships can't automatically detect each other at great distances as transponders are encrypted and space is so big but with the kind of distances in NuTrek it's not a risk any ship could afford to take.

If navigational deflectors blocked transporters as standard then that would simplify things. Although they've never mentioned dropping navigational shields to beam in or out that I recall.

What I dislike about the Abramverse transporters is the inconistency. It takes ages to lock on when a woman is doomed but a second when Kirk wants to look cool. Quantum scanners should work instantaneously or what use are they? We're moving on the atomic level way faster than during an earthquake on a spinning piece of rock. It's the interruption in the confinement beam that should be the danger once transport has started and that's where I have difficulty with NuTrek. How much energy does it take to send a confinement beam 20 light years through subspace? They need subspace relays for communication signals but not for entire people? It's inconsistent.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Good potential for a terrorist weapon. Probably expensive. And in the Federation, also probably illegal.

It was sufficiently easy to obtain that terrorists got it without anyone caring.

Nobody EVER cares what kinds of weapons terrorists have, as long as they're using them against someone else.

No one raises cost as an issue at any point

That's because this is Starfleet and money is meaningless to them. That is clearly not a universal reality.

Or they could just come up with a countermeasure that would nullify the advantage of space-fold bombs. Like they did when photon torpeodes and phasers were invented.

I just described the counter measure in accordance with what we know of the weapon. In the episode it was impossible to stop using any known defenses other than direct attack, and that fact cannot be ignored.

Yes, in ONE EPISODE they failed to come up with a countermeasure to a technology they've never seen before, therefore it must be impossible to do so no matter how hard anyone tries.

That's another silver bullet solution, though. It's an interesting trick you can use if your enemy hasn't seen it before and hasn't come up with a defense. The thing is, if the technology for the space-fold transporter is so simple that a pissed off Ferengi can buy it on the black market, the countermeasure probably isn't that complicated either.

That was a subspace transporter, and a completely different technology.

Begging the question: ARE they different? They don't seem to be. But even if they're not, they don't seem to be state-of-the-art military technology either.

So it is not a one trick pony as either transporter system would necessitate a complete redesign of defenses

Or a technobabble re-tuning of the shields and/or warp field, depending on plot requirements. You would think a subspace transporter could be blocked pretty easily with, say, a subspace field.

\

And the 20bn credits you just spent retrofitting all of your starships for the new golden age of space fold bombs? Ooops.

Everything has a cost, and as a military organization if the defenses of their ships are no longer sufficient then they will upgrade them to something which is sufficient.

"Upgrade" and "complete redesign" are two VERY different things.

I upgraded the memory on my laptop a few months ago, increasing its memory from 4 to 8 gigs. Simple to do, just changing hardware. Converting my laptop into a tablet? Not so simple.

Transwarp/subspace beaming isn't a game-changing technology or a paradigm shift. It's an interesting gadget that can be installed on starships that lets you do some things you couldn't before. At worse, you'd need to develop a new device that prevents bad guys from doing the same to you and installing that on your starships as part of their defense systems; OTOH, it's a lot more likely that this can be done by upgrading the deflector shields' firmware.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I agree that beaming into a ship at warp should be crazy hard but then if all you are beaming is a chemical weapon, you don't have to be anywhere near as accurate as with a living being. Beaming onto a ship that isn't at warp should be much easier, especially with non-living matter so then it just becomes about distance. Ships can't automatically detect each other at great distances as transponders are encrypted and space is so big but with the kind of distances in NuTrek it's not a risk any ship could afford to take.

Which, yeah, is a good tactic for a terrorist or a guerilla warrior who can't afford a more efficient means of assault. Starfleet generally does not engage in terror campaigns, however, and Klingons have "honor" to consider and would prefer to sidle up to their enemies and blow their heads off with concentrated disruptor fire.

The only major military power that would even try this is the Romulans. And we don't know enough about them to say for sure that they DON'T.

What I dislike about the Abramverse transporters is the inconistency. It takes ages to lock on when a woman is doomed but a second when Kirk wants to look cool.

Kirk has +2 for coolness and +4 bonus for quick escapes. Amanda should have rolled a critical.

Quantum scanners should work instantaneously or what use are they? We're moving on the atomic level way faster than during an earthquake on a spinning piece of rock.

Yes, but everything's relative. You're not tracking an individual atom in brownian motion, you're tracking a CLOUD of them that are moving together as a system. One thing that's obvious is that the transporter can't beam the entire person/object instantaneously; it takes you piece by piece, starting with a few atoms/molecules and then pulling in their neighbors a few trillion at a time. Even if the SCANNERS work instantaneously across a long distance, the BEAM ITSELF doesn't.

How much energy does it take to send a confinement beam 20 light years through subspace?

How much energy does it take to send ANYTHING 20 light years through sub space?

My guess is sending anything at FTL speed requires the presence of a warp drive or something like it, so a subspace signal -- even a tightbeam one like a transporter beam -- is really just a warp field projected at a distance. How fast it gets there and with what intensity would also depend on the power of the engine you're using to channel the beam.

They need subspace relays for communication signals but not for entire people? It's inconsistent.

What makes you think subspace transporters aren't using the relays? That's EXACTLY how Khan did it in the novelization of STID. Otherwise, over a short enough distance, the relays are superfluous: it's a tightbeam, point-to-point transmission that only needs for an accurate targeting solution.

 

[Tarek71]

I feel like transporters have an awesome potential for weaponization. Beam a grain of sand into an artery and cause a heart attack. Beam out someone's lungs. Why haven't we seen more weaponized transporting? What are some possible issues a transporter wielder might face?

The hyper-range transporters in NuTrek especially. If you can beam a person from Earth to Kronos, you can beam nukes or antimatter warheads there and exterminate them. Or beam a trilithium warhead into or near their star. Planetary wide jamming would be needed. Or even a huge star system wide network of jammers and scramblers would be needed to defend against it.

 

[Pauln6]

Yes, but everything's relative. You're not tracking an individual atom in brownian motion, you're tracking a CLOUD of them that are moving together as a system. One thing that's obvious is that the transporter can't beam the entire person/object instantaneously; it takes you piece by piece, starting with a few atoms/molecules and then pulling in their neighbors a few trillion at a time. Even if the SCANNERS work instantaneously across a long distance, the BEAM ITSELF doesn't.

How much energy does it take to send a confinement beam 20 light years through subspace?

How much energy does it take to send ANYTHING 20 light years through sub space?

My guess is sending anything at FTL speed requires the presence of a warp drive or something like it, so a subspace signal -- even a tightbeam one like a transporter beam -- is really just a warp field projected at a distance. How fast it gets there and with what intensity would also depend on the power of the engine you're using to channel the beam.

They need subspace relays for communication signals but not for entire people? It's inconsistent.

What makes you think subspace transporters aren't using the relays? That's EXACTLY how Khan did it in the novelization of STID. Otherwise, over a short enough distance, the relays are superfluous: it's a tight beam, point-to-point transmission that only needs for an accurate targeting solution.

I don't think transporters can work piece-meal or the subject would die and any interruption in the beam would certainly lead to death rather than a failed lock. I think it must be the confinement beam that takes the time to 'lock on'. In that regard the problem is not movement but a sudden change in position. Is an increase in breathing rate or heartbeat too much movement? Sneezing? Falling from a platform in a planetary weather system (certainly challenging even once you reach terminal velocity due to sudden wind currents etc)? Conversion to energy would need to be instantaneous though despite appearances. Maybe the beam reflects light so to an onlooker the subjects seem to be gradually phasing out.

The issue for me is always going to be energy consumption. Sure the numbers are wibbly wobbly but they must only transport a few people at a time over a few thousand km for a reason. Scale that up to light years without also scaling up the energy consumption just feels weird to me.

I think using relays for long distance transportation is a potentially sensible compromise but using normal communications arrays is daft. The difference in the amount of information in a message pales compared to the information necessary to build a person or even a small object. Each array would need to have the means and power to receive, maintain, and pass on a powerful confinement beam with a fail-safe that if any array in the chain malfunctions, they have to have enough power to reverse the process as well. It's looking dicey to me.

Building little transporter stations like the gate bridge in Stargate has potential but you would need a lot of them with considerable security issues. Do they need to be manned by engineers? Do they need defences or just an emergency beam out protocol? How long does it take to rebuild a destroyed station? Building transporter bridges between key Federation worlds in well patrolled areas seems doable.

STID has a few issues to contend with there too though e.g. the only way the first film makes any sense is if Nero destroyed communications arrays while on his rampage from Klingon space otherwise why not call for help from the Andorians who are right on Vulcan's borders? Khan would also need to be able to access Klingon communications arrays to reach Qu'onos. The latter is not impossible to hand wave given Marcus' goals might lead them to have obtained info on the Klingon communications network but still.

At least the chain-link transporter has so many problems you can see why it would never be used as standard.

 

[Ithekro]

If I recall, Starfleet didn't know their was a serious problem on Vulcan, but sent what ships it had nearby just in case. Those being the I guess eight ships from Earth and maybe some other ships to make that debree field larger. It might be a case of the larger Starfleet ships at Earth having faster warp drives than whatever ships were in Andorian space. (if one thinks the Kelvin-style drives are some sort of super warps system rather than just the same warp drive as always, just in a different package/effect).

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I don't think transporters can work piece-meal or the subject would die and any interruption in the beam would certainly lead to death rather than a failed lock.

Except they OBVIOUSLY work that way or else a person would materialize instantly on the transporter pad. We actually SEE people materializing out of the beam; they are momentarily translucent, meaning not all of their physical structure is in place yet. There has to be some form of interaction going on in which the parts of the body that ARE there can still behave as if the missing parts are still present, especially since an interruption in the transporter beam usually (but not always) results in the transportee returning to his original location fully intact.

Is an increase in breathing rate or heartbeat too much movement? Sneezing?

No, since -- again -- your relative position within the beam is mostly unchanged. All of the atoms and molecules in the overall system that is "your body" are moving a lot more than that, but as long as you're INSIDE the confinement beam and it is properly focussed on you, you might as well be doing the macarena.

The problem is, you have to STAY inside of the beam long enough for it to fully de-materialize you. The system is probably set up so that your body will return to a solid state if you suddenly leave the beam before it is deactivated; OTOH, there are all kinds of things that could potentially screw with it (e.g. faulty equipment or a busted sensor) that might result in you leaving the beam halfway through the cycle only to watch your heart, lungs, liver and left testicle materialize on the ship without you.

Conversion to energy would need to be instantaneous though despite appearances.

"Conversion to energy" is a TNG term that TOS never explicitly made; in the original series the object was DISMANTLED, not converted into anything. The only real way to convert matter into energy is to bombard it with an equal amount of antimatter; scientifically, this process is called "BOOM."

What's a lot more likely is that the transporter beam is performing some kind of quantum tunneling trick: it creates a barrier (the length of the beam) and then forces the optimal energy conditions on either side of the barrier that would cause atoms/molecules to cross it in its entirety. So every atom that leaves your body on the planet's surface appears instantly (or almost instantly) on the transporter pad in the same relative position and in the same behavior as its still-missing neighbors; your body exists as a superposition of quantum states stretched across the entire length of the confinement beam and it'll STAY that way until the beam is shut down and your wave function collapses into a definite location.

So Schroedinger's Dad is both on Vulcan and on Enterprise, until the transporter beam is shut down and the wave function collapses on the Enterprise; Shcroedinger's Mom falls out of the confinement beam before her new position can take hold.

The issue for me is always going to be energy consumption. Sure the numbers are wibbly wobbly but they must only transport a few people at a time over a few thousand km for a reason. Scale that up to light years without also scaling up the energy consumption just feels weird to me.

Seriously. How much energy does it take to propel a seven hundred meter starship up to several thousand times the speed of light? However much energy that is, it probably substantially dwarfs the power required to propel an ugly bag of mostly water, especially if said bag isn't physically being MOVED anywhere and is actually riding to the new location on a some kind of carefully modulated energy beam.

If I had to guess? The amount of energy needed to beam an object is probably equal to the amount of energy it would take to heat an equal mass of carbon dioxide to incandescence. A few megawatts, probably. Then add in the requirements for a subspace field and whatever else is required in targeting systems. It probably isn't an issue with power so much as an issue with precision and safety.

I think using relays for long distance transportation is a potentially sensible compromise but using normal communications arrays is daft. The difference in the amount of information in a message pales compared to the information necessary to build a person or even a small object.

Assuming the information itself is being transmitted (and not an analog signal of finite but sufficient fidelity) this is contradicted by the fact that TRASNPORTERS are able to handle that throughput relatively well on a routine basis. Using the normal communication relays simply means the transporter signal would take a lot longer than usual to materialize the finished product and therefore would be a lot more dangerous.

OTOH, if you're using some kind of quantum superposition, then the "pattern" you're sending is really just an energy state and the only thing you need is a way to make sure the beam remains on both the target and the destination long enough to complete transport. That can be accomplished through relays IF you know ahead of time that the last relay in the chain is able to hit its intended target.

STID has a few issues to contend with there too though e.g. the only way the first film makes any sense is if Nero destroyed communications arrays while on his rampage from Klingon space otherwise why not call for help from the Andorians who are right on Vulcan's borders?

Because the VULCANS never called anyone for help. The distress signal was a trap set by Nero to lure Starfleet into a kill zone. If he'd wanted to ambush the Andorian fleet he would have sent them a message too. He didn't, because Andor wasn't his next target, EARTH was.

At least the chain-link transporter has so many problems you can see why it would never be used as standard.

Considering the incredible shit Khan had to do to set it up in the first place, it's more like a daredevil stunt than a practical means of transportation. It's the Star Trek equivalent of jumping out of an exploding helicopter with a rocket strapped to your ass and throwing a grapple hook at a passing airliner just to make a quick escape.

 

[Pauln6]

"Conversion to energy" is a TNG term that TOS never explicitly made; in the original series the object was DISMANTLED, not converted into anything. The only real way to convert matter into energy is to bombard it with an equal amount of antimatter; scientifically, this process is called "BOOM."

What's a lot more likely is that the transporter beam is performing some kind of quantum tunneling trick: it creates a barrier (the length of the beam) and then forces the optimal energy conditions on either side of the barrier that would cause atoms/molecules to cross it in its entirety. So every atom that leaves your body on the planet's surface appears instantly (or almost instantly) on the transporter pad in the same relative position and in the same behavior as its still-missing neighbors; your body exists as a superposition of quantum states stretched across the entire length of the confinement beam and it'll STAY that way until the beam is shut down and your wave function collapses into a definite location.

So Schroedinger's Dad is both on Vulcan and on Enterprise, until the transporter beam is shut down and the wave function collapses on the Enterprise; Shcroedinger's Mom falls out of the confinement beam before her new position can take hold.


Seriously. How much energy does it take to propel a seven hundred meter starship up to several thousand times the speed of light? However much energy that is, it probably substantially dwarfs the power required to propel an ugly bag of mostly water, especially if said bag isn't physically being MOVED anywhere and is actually riding to the new location on a some kind of carefully modulated energy beam.

If I had to guess? The amount of energy needed to beam an object is probably equal to the amount of energy it would take to heat an equal mass of carbon dioxide to incandescence. A few megawatts, probably. Then add in the requirements for a subspace field and whatever else is required in targeting systems. It probably isn't an issue with power so much as an issue with precision and safety.


Assuming the information itself is being transmitted (and not an analog signal of finite but sufficient fidelity) this is contradicted by the fact that TRASNPORTERS are able to handle that throughput relatively well on a routine basis. Using the normal communication relays simply means the transporter signal would take a lot longer than usual to materialize the finished product and therefore would be a lot more dangerous.

OTOH, if you're using some kind of quantum superposition, then the "pattern" you're sending is really just an energy state and the only thing you need is a way to make sure the beam remains on both the target and the destination long enough to complete transport. That can be accomplished through relays IF you know ahead of time that the last relay in the chain is able to hit its intended target.

STID has a few issues to contend with there too though e.g. the only way the first film makes any sense is if Nero destroyed communications arrays while on his rampage from Klingon space otherwise why not call for help from the Andorians who are right on Vulcan's borders?

Because the VULCANS never called anyone for help. The distress signal was a trap set by Nero to lure Starfleet into a kill zone. If he'd wanted to ambush the Andorian fleet he would have sent them a message too. He didn't, because Andor wasn't his next target, EARTH was.

Ha ha - quantum superposition. I love it! Somebody should totally retcon the transporters to work like this officially. You still get the problem with inconsistency at the convenience of the plot though. I'm not a fan of kill and clone teleporters so this is a fun way of dribbling around that. You still have the issue with targeting your destination though and if energy is not an issue why not simply send your ships to your destination in the same way?

I'm not sure rematerialisation imagery on the transporter pad necessarily shows that it happens slowly though. People can only see whatever light is reflected from the confinement beam. All the imagery shows is that light gradually starts to bleed through as the confinement beam is relaxed.

With the Nero thing, I wasn't talking about the Vulcan distress signal but the Enterprise's. It is plausible that every starfleet ship on Andoria also turned up at Vulcan and was also destroyed but that leaves an awful lot of non-Starfleet ships. It doesn't explain why Enterprise didn't contact Earth, Andoria, and/or Tellar and get THEM to get a faster ship to the Laurentian system (where they inexplicably don't have any contingency for emergency communications) or more likely, to communicate with faster ships that are much closer to the Laurentian system and/or warning Earth to change the defence codes. Many non-Starfleet ships can travel faster than warp 4.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Ha ha - quantum superposition. I love it! Somebody should totally retcon the transporters to work like this officially. You still get the problem with inconsistency at the convenience of the plot though.

Yeah, but that's just sloppy writing. The fans always rescue that with fridge logic anyway.

You still have the issue with targeting your destination though and if energy is not an issue why not simply send your ships to your destination in the same way?

The Kalandans were able to do it in "That which survives." It's probable that Starfleet experimented with this technology as well at some point and found it to be impractical for one reason or another. Either because of the tremendous infrastructure needed to make it work -- e.g. a transporter big enough to beam an entire starship in one go, which would be so maintenance intensive and so vulnerable to sabotage or attack that it would almost not be worth it -- or because of fleet politics and the people with the idea failing to convince anyone in Starfleet Command to sanction large-scale implementation. Starfleet may not use "money" but they do have a budget to consider.

I'm not sure rematerialisation imagery on the transporter pad necessarily shows that it happens slowly though. People can only see whatever light is reflected from the confinement beam. All the imagery shows is that light gradually starts to bleed through as the confinement beam is relaxed.

If that were the case, the confinement beam ITSELF would be opaque and you wouldn't be able to see through the beaming object; it would look more like the time bubble thing in Terminator 2.

Also, "confinement beam" is another TNG term that may not actually apply to TOS. I suspect that it was invented in the 24th century specifically to solve that annoying problem of people accidentally (or deliberately) jumping out of the transporter beam before transport is complete. In the 23rd century, they apparently solve this problem by better targeting systems; we get a hint of this when Carol Marcus tries to avoid being beamed off the Enterprise by running across the room, trying and failing to dodge the transporter lock.

With the Nero thing, I wasn't talking about the Vulcan distress signal but the Enterprise's.

Nero's torpedo had apparently wrecked their transmitter and limited them to short-range communication, which is why they were planning to head over to the Laurentian System and get the rest of the fleet instead of just CALLING them from the Vulcan system.

It is plausible that every starfleet ship on Andoria also turned up at Vulcan and was also destroyed but that leaves an awful lot of non-Starfleet ships.

It's equally possible that there aren't any Starfleet ships on Andor and that the ANDORIAN fleet is otherwise engaged. Strictly speaking, Andor probably isn't any closer to Vulcan than Earth is. Not a viable option either way since they don't have time to run over and call for backup in any case.

It doesn't explain why Enterprise didn't contact Earth, Andoria, and/or Tellar and get THEM to get a faster ship to the Laurentian system (where they inexplicably don't have any contingency for emergency communications) or more likely, to communicate with faster ships that are much closer to the Laurentian system and/or warning Earth to change the defence codes.

File this one under "space is BIIIIIIIIIG." For the same reason the lack of an FTL drive makes meaningful long-distance travel completely impossible, lack of FTL transmitter makes meaningful long-distance communications equally impossible.

Plus, they only had like 4 hours to figure out what to do about the Narada and they probably weren't going to waste it flying around looking for a cell signal.

 

[Pauln6]

Nero's torpedo had apparently wrecked their transmitter and limited them to short-range communication, which is why they were planning to head over to the Laurentian System and get the rest of the fleet instead of just CALLING them from the Vulcan system.

It is plausible that every starfleet ship on Andoria also turned up at Vulcan and was also destroyed but that leaves an awful lot of non-Starfleet ships.

It's equally possible that there aren't any Starfleet ships on Andor and that the ANDORIAN fleet is otherwise engaged. Strictly speaking, Andor probably isn't any closer to Vulcan than Earth is. Not a viable option either way since they don't have time to run over and call for backup in any case.

It doesn't explain why Enterprise didn't contact Earth, Andoria, and/or Tellar and get THEM to get a faster ship to the Laurentian system (where they inexplicably don't have any contingency for emergency communications) or more likely, to communicate with faster ships that are much closer to the Laurentian system and/or warning Earth to change the defence codes.

File this one under "space is BIIIIIIIIIG." For the same reason the lack of an FTL drive makes meaningful long-distance travel completely impossible, lack of FTL transmitter makes meaningful long-distance communications equally impossible.

Plus, they only had like 4 hours to figure out what to do about the Narada and they probably weren't going to waste it flying around looking for a cell signal.

None of these are very convincing for me. If Kirk had chased down Nero without the extra intel from Spock Prime, he would have failed. The best options with the information they have at that time are warning Earth, warning other Federation worlds, and getting help.

If their transmitter is damaged they could stop off at Scotty's outpost to use his or to effect repairs. Logic dictates that the most effective way to get the fleet back to Earth is to contact them and have them fly back at much faster warp 9.

Scotty's array may not work or exist (he didn't seem to know about the emergency on Vulcan and failed to pick up a distress call in his own back yard but conversely he did have a shuttle with transmitters extending at least several light years). Travel to the nearest array would be a logical next step (hence my earlier comment that Nero would have had to destroy the arrays since traditionally it is these that allow long distance communications). Of course the absence of subspace chatter would tip Starfleet off that arrays have been destroyed (we see this used as an excuse for missions in several episodes) but that's another story.

Having said that, I think it is likely that the nearest array would be away from Earth. I think they tend to be placed about 20+ light years apart according to Memory alpha and since Vulcan is closer to Earth than that I would think that the nearest array is likely to be 20+ light years in the wrong direction. One assumes that each array will be in contact with several other arrays in several other directions allowing signals to bypass a damaged array if necessary. It seems unlikely that a single enemy could take out too many before the missing signals are noticed. The Earth is not the entire Federation even in the 23rd century.

I think Andorian space would be a safer bet for communications, a faster ship, or repairs. It isn't logical to limp to the fleet at a low speed since even finding a ship that can go at warp 5 would reduce travel times so substantially that the time you spent finding it would pale into nothing.

They didn't have 4 hours to decide, as far as they knew, they had maybe half an hour to decide since Nero had travelled from Klingon space at such speed that there was no way they could beat him to Earth in their damaged state. Space ISN'T that big in NuTrek. They travel to Vulcan at top speed in, what, an hour? And how long to and from Klingon space in STiD? It took Nero a day I think. Even faster than Archer at warp 4! We do know that Andorian outposts are on the edge of Vulcan territory from the Enterprise series. It should not take a huge amount of time to get there if the plan is to contact the fleet.

I think in order to keep up dramatic tension they felt forced to shrink Federation space down substantially in terms of time scales but then tripped themselves up by overlooking that Nero had travelled from Qu'onos to Vulcan in a day but limped from Vulcan to Earth at a much slower pace to allow the heroes to beat him there at only warp 4.

It is possible that Nero interrogated Pike to learn the locations of the arrays rather than Earth's defences and dawdled back to Earth because he was destroying arrays to isolate the Federation core. Marcus could then oversee the deployment of the new arrays pre-STiD with the addition of transporter tech added in. Wow - I just plugged my own plot hole. Brainstorming works! Except of course Nero is stated to be on course for Earth so maybe not.

It's fine for the Enterprise to be the only ship in the quadrant when you are in deep space but when you are in the heart of the Federation and travelling at only warp 4, it does make one wonder... Of course this is no sillier than the unfinished Enterprise being the only ship stationed anywhere between Klingon space and Earth (or the only heavy cruiser at least) in TMP.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

None of these are very convincing for me. If Kirk had chased down Nero without the extra intel from Spock Prime, he would have failed.

Sure, but KIRK didn't know that. That was, in fact, EXACTLY the argument that got him thrown off the ship. Spock's plan was to run to the fleet at the Laurentean System and rally the fleet for a showdown.

Laurentean is either closer to Earth than Andor is (a real possibility) or Spock knew that there wasn't enough of a fleet on neighboring Federation worlds to make a big enough difference in time.

If their transmitter is damaged they could stop off at Scotty's outpost to use his or to effect repairs.

Implying that Scotty HAD a transmitter available for that purpose. Delta Vega is too much of a shithole posting for that to be likely.

Logic dictates that the most effective way to get the fleet back to Earth is to contact them and have them fly back at much faster warp 9.

You say "logic dictates" like you actually worked that out using some kind of formal proof. That's cute.

You start with the premises. It takes X amount of time to repair the transmitter. It takes Y amount of time to LOCATE a working transmitter. It takes Z amount of time to fly to short-range communications range of the primary fleet in Laurentean.

If X > Y > Z then Z is the logical course of action. Locating a transmitter elsewhere only makes sense IF it actually takes less time than repairs or travel. Stopping to make repairs makes sense IF it takes less time than travel or searching. And all of these assume that the main fleet is actually close enough to Earth to be able to intercept Nero BEFORE he destroys the planet; Kirk seems to believe they're not, and he may not be wrong.

Having said that, I think it is likely that the nearest array would likely be away from Earth.

Doubtful. Earth and Vulcan are probably close enough that direct point-to-point transmission is possible. It's even likely that Vulcan ITSELF functions as the major hub in the Federation's communications array and the main reason the Enterprise can't contact Earth is because the big transmitter on Vulcan -- the relay they would normally use to route traffic homeward -- isn't there anymore.

I think Andorian space would be a safer bet for communications, a faster ship, or repairs.

That, again, is assuming a lot. To begin with, we don't actually know where Andorian space IS relative to Vulcan. "Enterprise" suggests it's relatively close, but that could mean just about anything in the context of galactic politics; for all we know, Vulcan is closer to Kronos than Andor.

They didn't have 4 hours to decide, as far as they knew, they had maybe half an hour to decide since Nero had travelled from Klingon space at such speed that there was no way they could beat him to Earth in their damaged state.

Counterfactual: they could -- and nearly DID -- beat Nero to Earth even in their damaged state (that, again, was Kirk's original idea).

Space ISN'T that big in NuTrek.

Yes it is. Space is space. The fact that starships are really really fast in a straight line doesn't change the fact that the VOLUME of space in which to find something valuable is incomprehensibly huge. You can get some place quickly if you know exactly where to go; if you DON'T know where to go, you're dicking around on impulse power until you find it.

This just works out mathematically. Even if you know there's a station with a long-range communications rig SOMEWHERE within 4 light years of your current location, it takes more time to search that volume (about 33 cubic light years) than it does to travel to the actual fleet (15 to 20 light years). It makes sense if you think you might get lucky and find somebody who can pass on a message without searching the entire sphere, but relying on luck isn't very logical.

They travel to Vulcan at top speed in, what, an hour? And how long to and from Klingon space in STiD? It took Nero a day I think. Even faster than Archer at warp 4! We do know that Andorian outposts are on the edge of Vulcan territory from the Enterprise series. It should not take a huge amount of time to get there if the plan is to contact the fleet.

It doesn't take a huge amount of time. Just more time than they can afford. Again, there's no basis for the assumption that Andor or its outposts are closer to Vulcan than the main Federation fleet. There's even less basis for the assumption that those wartime-era outposts would even still be there with both worlds being Federation members.

I think in order to keep up dramatic tension they felt forced to shrink Federation space down substantially in terms of time scales but then tripped themselves up by overlooking that Nero had travelled from Qu'onos to Vulcan in a day but limped from Vulcan to Earth at a much slower pace to allow the heroes to beat him there are only warp 4.

Nero didn't travel from Kronos, though. He traveled from Rura Penthe, once described by Checkov as "Deep within the Klingon frontier." And if you go by the IDW comic adaptation, he wasn't even AT Rura Penthe, that's just the origin of the transmission asking for reinforcements after Nero massacred their fleet on the way back from trolling V'ger.

It's fine for the Enterprise to be the only ship in the quadrant when you are in deep space but when you are in the heart of the Federation and travelling at only warp 4, it does make one wonder.

Still better than TMP or Wrath of Khan where the exact same thing happened. Better in this case because we know WHY they're the only ship in the area: Nero deliberately lured all the others into an ambush.

The pace of STXI makes it a little hard to see, but the fight with Nero is essentially a battle over Vulcan and then hot pursuit by the Enterprise. Pretty much anything the Enterprise could have done OTHER than chase the Narada would have been "disengage and call for backup." I don't think it was ever really a question of whether or not the main fleet could get to the Narada first; I think it was a question of whether or not to make a last desperate attempt to save Earth or sacrifice Earth to guarantee Nero's defeat. Spock -- blinded by grief and rage -- chose option B; Kirk, motivated mainly by his Personal Awesomeness Field, chose Option A.

 

[Pauln6]

Laurentean is either closer to Earth than Andor is (a real possibility) or Spock knew that there wasn't enough of a fleet on neighboring Federation worlds to make a big enough difference in time.

If their transmitter is damaged they could stop off at Scotty's outpost to use his or to effect repairs.

Implying that Scotty HAD a transmitter available for that purpose. Delta Vega is too much of a shithole posting for that to be likely.


You say "logic dictates" like you actually worked that out using some kind of formal proof. That's cute.

You start with the premises. It takes X amount of time to repair the transmitter. It takes Y amount of time to LOCATE a working transmitter. It takes Z amount of time to fly to short-range communications range of the primary fleet in Laurentean.

If X > Y > Z then Z is the logical course of action. Locating a transmitter elsewhere only makes sense IF it actually takes less time than repairs or travel. Stopping to make repairs makes sense IF it takes less time than travel or searching. And all of these assume that the main fleet is actually close enough to Earth to be able to intercept Nero BEFORE he destroys the planet; Kirk seems to believe they're not, and he may not be wrong.


Doubtful. Earth and Vulcan are probably close enough that direct point-to-point transmission is possible. It's even likely that Vulcan ITSELF functions as the major hub in the Federation's communications array and the main reason the Enterprise can't contact Earth is because the big transmitter on Vulcan -- the relay they would normally use to route traffic homeward -- isn't there anymore.


That, again, is assuming a lot. To begin with, we don't actually know where Andorian space IS relative to Vulcan. "Enterprise" suggests it's relatively close, but that could mean just about anything in the context of galactic politics; for all we know, Vulcan is closer to Kronos than Andor.


Counterfactual: they could -- and nearly DID -- beat Nero to Earth even in their damaged state (that, again, was Kirk's original idea).

The pace of STXI makes it a little hard to see, but the fight with Nero is essentially a battle over Vulcan and then hot pursuit by the Enterprise. Pretty much anything the Enterprise could have done OTHER than chase the Narada would have been "disengage and call for backup." I don't think it was ever really a question of whether or not the main fleet could get to the Narada first; I think it was a question of whether or not to make a last desperate attempt to save Earth or sacrifice Earth to guarantee Nero's defeat. Spock -- blinded by grief and rage -- chose option B; Kirk, motivated mainly by his Personal Awesomeness Field, chose Option A.

Ha ha. Yeah, your mileage may vary depending on how canon you want your calculations to be but according to non-canon STO maps I've looked at, Andoria seems to be about 5 light years closer to Earth than Vulcan and is pretty much on the way for the Enterprise. Rura Penthe is slightly further away from Earth and Vulcan than Qu'onos and I think Vulcan is slightly closer to Qu'onos than Andor. So yes, my assumptions are based on a map that has placed real world stars into Star Trek context. The writers of NuTrek may be working from an entirely fictional star map or from a different set of assumptions to previous Trek. The writers do seem to make glaring contradictory claims about time, speed, and distance for dramatic effect from one episode to the next so relying on canon gets very tricky.

However, Scotty must have a transmitter since he has a shuttle with a working (long distance) transporter.

 

[Ithekro]

But woud Spock know Scotty is even there? Also, would any normal transmission even be able to get past Nero's jamming and whatever effect Vulcan's destruction had on local subspace? Nero is heading in the direction of Sol, so any if his jamming is powerful enough, no message of warning will reach it or anything beyond it. Which means a starship has to go deliver any messages personally (baring new transwarp beaming technology since no one but Scotty and future Spock would be able to make that happen that day).

We can assume that any able Starship in easy range of Vulcan was sent there and destroyed other than Enterprise. The rest of the fleet is busy in another star system that is too far away to defend Earth or Vulcan within the limit of Nero destroying Earth. Spock's logical conclusion is that a fleet that is properly warned is needed to destroy Nero's ship, and Enterprise, nor any other local ships will be able to deal with the situation alone. Earth, while being a large planet, is but one planet within the Federation. The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, therefore, Enterprise limps to get the fleet in order to take out Nero.

With the jamming field, and/or Enterprise's subspace communications array being offline, Enterprise has to go to places in person to deliver any sort of message. And if the problem is the jamming field, Enterprise going to some other system other than towards the Fleet only wastes more time that they don't have. Enterprise on a direct course for the fleet at warp 4 would be faster than Enterprise going to someplace else at warp 4, than getting a faster ship to warn the fleet at a higher warp speed. They still lose the time in getting to that faster ship.

Assuming of course there even is a faster ship anywhere nearby. Assuming that "warp 4" is even the same as Archer era warp factor four. Assuming non-huge, 23rd century Starfleet ships can travel the same way as huge, 23rd century Starfleet ships. Why would Scotty even have something called "tranwarp" anything? Why not just warp beaming?

 

[Pauln6]

But woud Spock know Scotty is even there? Also, would any normal transmission even be able to get past Nero's jamming and whatever effect Vulcan's destruction had on local subspace? Nero is heading in the direction of Sol, so any if his jamming is powerful enough, no message of warning will reach it or anything beyond it. Which means a starship has to go deliver any messages personally (baring new transwarp beaming technology since no one but Scotty and future Spock would be able to make that happen that day).

We can assume that any able Starship in easy range of Vulcan was sent there and destroyed other than Enterprise. The rest of the fleet is busy in another star system that is too far away to defend Earth or Vulcan within the limit of Nero destroying Earth. Spock's logical conclusion is that a fleet that is properly warned is needed to destroy Nero's ship, and Enterprise, nor any other local ships will be able to deal with the situation alone. Earth, while being a large planet, is but one planet within the Federation. The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, therefore, Enterprise limps to get the fleet in order to take out Nero.

With the jamming field, and/or Enterprise's subspace communications array being offline, Enterprise has to go to places in person to deliver any sort of message. And if the problem is the jamming field, Enterprise going to some other system other than towards the Fleet only wastes more time that they don't have. Enterprise on a direct course for the fleet at warp 4 would be faster than Enterprise going to someplace else at warp 4, than getting a faster ship to warn the fleet at a higher warp speed. They still lose the time in getting to that faster ship.

Assuming of course there even is a faster ship anywhere nearby. Assuming that "warp 4" is even the same as Archer era warp factor four. Assuming non-huge, 23rd century Starfleet ships can travel the same way as huge, 23rd century Starfleet ships. Why would Scotty even have something called "tranwarp" anything? Why not just warp beaming?

I don't think it's suggested that Nero can jam communications over long distances. The Klingon distress signal got through. I also think that the more you have to layer on to plug the holes the more that in itself becomes a hole. We've seen dozens of 24th century ships in TNG and yet this 'simple' mining vessel has an unlimited supply of vastly more powerful torpedoes and interstellar jamming? The non-canon V'Ger angle might be able to explain away some of this though.

It's a good point about whether there is any distinction between transwarp beaming and long distance beaming. From STiD it still isn't clear. Khan wasn't beaming to or from warp. Beaming onto a ship at warp is so unlikely to work it would only be used in dire emergencies although if you are beaming a simple chemical weapon or a space mine you have a wider margin of error and you don't have as much to lose.

Also, I don't think it's realistic to assume that Andoria, a major Federation planet that has a militaristic history would have no warp capable ships any more than it is realistic to suggest that none of the Vulcan ships that escaped would had had no warp capability or long distance communications. A single Federation escape pod must have a long-distance distress beacon or getting into an escape pod would be a death sentence.

Personally I don't have a major issue with transwarp beaming. It's long distance beaming that causes me the headaches and that has the potential for weaponisation. In fact it's even more amazing as espionage if you can beam a tiny bug or coded transmitter close enough to a ship to lock on. In a solar system you could probably mask the transporter signal or magnetic propulsion among the background noise of the heliosphere.

Is the term 'transwarp' synonymous because the transporter is warping space to achieve the longer distance? If that's the case then would you need to engage warp engines to achieve your goal and would your maximum distance be as far as it takes the ship to travel at that warp speed in the time it takes to transport? If that is the case then would Khan have needed to have had warp powered relay stations to get as far as Qu'onos?

 

[Ithekro]

Does anyone on Andor know what is going on? Since no one on Earth knew what was going on at Vulcan, I doubt anyone on Andoria knows either. No one knows Vulcan has been destroyed yet. If Starfleet's ships are using some advanced style warp system that gets them to Vulcan within a single crew shift, does anyone else with smaller ships have that sort of drive? Do the Andorians operate modern starships? or were all their ships sent with the fleet while Earth's group was acting as the reserve? Are their older ships of the smaller type that still used older style warp drives that would take days to reach Vulcan? Days to reach Earth? If so, Enterprise going there will do nothing useful. Have the Andorians sends out a Subspace signal? To who? Earth? Not possible through the jamming (that prevented signals from Vulcan aside from the one that was a trap signal. Vulcan sent no warning...Nero did. The Klingon signal was intercepted after Nero left the area to find Spock he might not have been jamming anymore, or the line of sight from his jamming system was not between the Klingon transmission source and Earth.). Even if there is no jammong, what can anyone do about it by the time Enterprise arrives anyplace? Have the Andorians contact the Fleet. Okay, there's still not going to make it in time. That was why Kirk was against the idea. They would not be able to get to Earth before Nero destroyed it as he did Vulcan. Even if going to Andoria takes three hours and the message gets to Starfleet...they won't get there in time. There are no ships at Earth since those went to Vulcan. Any ships at Andor won't get there in an hour even with drives like those on the other starships. The Vulcan ships. No fight in them againt Nero. Likely not faster than even a crippled Enterprise. Subspace radio? Still not telling what sort of issues the destruction of Vulcan does to subspace. Plus there still might not be enough time to get the fleet back to Earth. All these things add up to Enterprise being their only shot they got for this film because all the other help was blow away by Nero.

 

[Pauln6]

Does anyone on Andor know what is going on? Since no one on Earth knew what was going on at Vulcan, I doubt anyone on Andoria knows either. No one knows Vulcan has been destroyed yet. If Starfleet's ships are using some advanced style warp system that gets them to Vulcan within a single crew shift, does anyone else with smaller ships have that sort of drive? Do the Andorians operate modern starships? or were all their ships sent with the fleet while Earth's group was acting as the reserve? Are their older ships of the smaller type that still used older style warp drives that would take days to reach Vulcan? Days to reach Earth? If so, Enterprise going there will do nothing useful. Have the Andorians sends out a Subspace signal? To who? Earth? Not possible through the jamming (that prevented signals from Vulcan aside from the one that was a trap signal. Vulcan sent no warning...Nero did. The Klingon signal was intercepted after Nero left the area to find Spock he might not have been jamming anymore, or the line of sight from his jamming system was not between the Klingon transmission source and Earth.). Even if there is no jammong, what can anyone do about it by the time Enterprise arrives anyplace? Have the Andorians contact the Fleet. Okay, there's still not going to make it in time. That was why Kirk was against the idea. They would not be able to get to Earth before Nero destroyed it as he did Vulcan. Even if going to Andoria takes three hours and the message gets to Starfleet...they won't get there in time. There are no ships at Earth since those went to Vulcan. Any ships at Andor won't get there in an hour even with drives like those on the other starships. The Vulcan ships. No fight in them againt Nero. Likely not faster than even a crippled Enterprise. Subspace radio? Still not telling what sort of issues the destruction of Vulcan does to subspace. Plus there still might not be enough time to get the fleet back to Earth. All these things add up to Enterprise being their only shot they got for this film because all the other help was blow away by Nero.

It's a stretch. Nero can block the signal from Vulcan while he's there but to suggest that he can block all signals getting to Earth from all directions is a much bigger ask. It's heavily implied that it's just the drill that causes the problem. Even so, it's 16 light years to Earth - are there any mathematicians who want to calculate the area he has to cover? And assuming that Andoria is in that dead zone, they would not just sit on their hands wondering what was going on. Don't these planets run fire drills?

Where you see 'new super fast warp drive,' I see 'careless writing'. However, even assuming that super fast speed is intentional, why would the militaristic Andorians have no new fast ships that don't belong to Starfleet? We do know that Federation planets have their own vessels. You end up multiplying the stupid factor to such a degree that I might as well go and watch Prometheus.

Andoria is pretty much on the way to Earth. It's not a major detour and it's closer to Vulcan than it is to Earth. If it takes 3 hours to get to Andor then it would take 8 hours to get to Earth at that same speed. If it takes 3 hours to get to Andor and get on a faster ship, then you might get to Earth in an hour.

But of course all this is academic because Nero has no real reason to fly to Earth at less than warp 4 now does he? :P

We know that the fleet won't make it back in time if Enterprise limps there at warp 4. It does not automatically follow that an Andorian ship travelling at warp 6+ would not be able to fly there or message a closer ship or Starbase to get the fleet there sooner. Spock's approach is as silly as Kirk's.

I understand the level of contrivance that is needed to keep Enterprise at the heart of the action in a 2 hour movie but there should have been some reason to keep Nero slow (e.g. damage to his ship or encountering automated Federation defences) to make it seem less silly.

 

[Ithekro]

Nero's delay is one of two things. One, he's waiting until he has the defense system codes for Sol from Pike, thus delaying his arrival at Earth by a few hours. Or, his mining ship has much slower warp drives that even a 23th century Federation Starship, and he doesn't feel like he is in a hurry.

As for Andor's ships, it might be a case of them building ships for Starfleet rather than themselves, or their own defense fleet designs are similar to their 22nd century counterparts and don't have the massive drives the huge Starfleet ships have. Or their fleet is the one Enterprise is heading for. We don't know where in relation to Andor Spock is going. Just that Kirk thinks it won't work.

Andor (if it is Procyon system) is 13 light years from Vulcan (Keid System) and 11 light years from Sol. Vulcan is 16 light years from Sol, but Andor is not a straight line between them. Laurentian seems to be towards Klingon space, which is in the opposite direction from both. This would indicate that Spock doesn't think much of the chances of any local defense fleets from being able to do any better than Starfleet ships from Earth just did against against Nero. Meaning the closest logical support is towards the Klingon border. The Fleet. (The Klingon border is something like 85 light years away from Vulcan.) Now why not use subspace to do that? Unknown. Though it is possible that Kirk and Scott's arrival was before Enterprise could even reach a known location with a needed subspace transmitter (even Andor) and thus with Kirk in command again, it was decided that going after Nero was the only solution to save Earth, as the Fleet, warned or not, was still at least half a day away, or more than the jump cuts needed to get Enterprise to Sol and the drama factor of the heroes against Nero.

 

[Pauln6]

Nero's delay is one of two things. One, he's waiting until he has the defense system codes for Sol from Pike, thus delaying his arrival at Earth by a few hours. Or, his mining ship has much slower warp drives that even a 23th century Federation Starship, and he doesn't feel like he is in a hurry.

As for Andor's ships, it might be a case of them building ships for Starfleet rather than themselves, or their own defense fleet designs are similar to their 22nd century counterparts and don't have the massive drives the huge Starfleet ships have. Or their fleet is the one Enterprise is heading for. We don't know where in relation to Andor Spock is going. Just that Kirk thinks it won't work.

Andor (if it is Procyon system) is 13 light years from Vulcan (Keid System) and 11 light years from Sol. Vulcan is 16 light years from Sol, but Andor is not a straight line between them. Laurentian seems to be towards Klingon space, which is in the opposite direction from both. This would indicate that Spock doesn't think much of the chances of any local defense fleets from being able to do any better than Starfleet ships from Earth just did against against Nero. Meaning the closest logical support is towards the Klingon border. The Fleet. (The Klingon border is something like 85 light years away from Vulcan.) Now why not use subspace to do that? Unknown. Though it is possible that Kirk and Scott's arrival was before Enterprise could even reach a known location with a needed subspace transmitter (even Andor) and thus with Kirk in command again, it was decided that going after Nero was the only solution to save Earth, as the Fleet, warned or not, was still at least half a day away, or more than the jump cuts needed to get Enterprise to Sol and the drama factor of the heroes against Nero.

Still a victim of its own inconsistencies and stupidity (i.e. the plot being stupid). If Nero's ship is so slow, how did he get 85LY to Vulcan so quickly? If his ship is awesome enough to destroy 47 Klingon ships built for battle and then take on Vulcan's defences plus 7 Federation ship and any number of Vulcan ships, why would he need the Earth defence codes? Why would Starfleet have defence codes that its captains know how to disable in the first place (mind sifters anybody)?

Plus, if his ship has been upgraded by V'Ger, doesn't V'Ger already know how to disable Earth's defences (although I haven't read the comic so I have no idea how this went down)?

More importantly, Kirk and Spock don't know that he is going to travel slow to get the defence codes, or how long that will take (he could speed up as soon as he has them, which could be 5 minutes into his trip).

Andor may not have any suitable ships to take on Nero but could help evacuate civilians, or distract him, or any number of other possibilities. Spock does not even consider these possibilities so how can he know? However, it is still not realistic to suggest that the entire planet has no ships capable of travelling faster than Warp 4. A ship capable of beating Nero to Earth with a crew of three and a transporter is what they needed to succeed in the end.

Even that is a bit weird. Nero can't know that all the defences are definitely offline so why is he entering the solar system at sub light speed without shields up? Does Starfleet seriously have no outer defences at all? This is sort of an issue in TMP too, although in that case V'Ger could have simply disabled or absorbed the outer defences off-camera I suppose.

It's a good job the universe was onside for the heroes because both the heroes and villains were pretty clueless. :P

Back to weaponising transporters: would it have been safer to beam an explosive onto the bridge of Nero's ship, and/or the area of the ship that deploys the mining platform rather than send two men into the bowels? There are risks either way but if the ship can't deploy its platform it would give the fleet time to arrive to save the planet. Obtaining the red matter is more important and not igniting the red matter in the solar system is more important again so likely not an ideal choice but then neither was sending in only two people.

 

[Ithekro]

Of course, by Spocks' (both of them) admission, he is emotional compromised. His logic is impared. However he is also running a brand new, and more or less untested starship full of cadets against a giant ship from the future that has wiped out over fifty ships and the planet Vulcan. Spock's logic is not going to be very helpful right now, nor sound. His only thought is to warn Starfleet at Laurentian , and so he heads their, away from Nero.

I don't recall any incident with V'Ger and Nero. What I recall is that he took captured Borg tech from a Romulan base following the destruction of Romulas. That tech reworked his mining ship into the monster we see. He then take on 24th century Klingons that are invading Romulan space, then the USS Enterprise-E sent to escort Spock. The Enterprise-E survives, barely, but is unable to give chase to where Spock dumps the red matter to stop the supernova, causing the temporal storm that takes him and Nero to an alternate 23rd century.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Does anyone on Andor know what is going on? Since no one on Earth knew what was going on at Vulcan, I doubt anyone on Andoria knows either. No one knows Vulcan has been destroyed yet. If Starfleet's ships are using some advanced style warp system that gets them to Vulcan within a single crew shift, does anyone else with smaller ships have that sort of drive?

Actually, that was one of the observations that lead to the (temporarily shelved) Starfleet Guide. The ships that were sent to Vulcan weren't the ENTIRE Earth fleet, just the eight vessels in the area that happened to be equipped with a transwarp drive and therefore capable of making the trip from Earth to Vulcan in a matter of hours; going by TMP and ENT, a conventional warp drive would need at least four days to cover that same distance.

The idea being that transwarp drives -- and the ships that carry them -- are at this point so expensive and over-engineered as to be borderline impractical. They're the Space Shuttle of the Trek era: unique in their capabilities, but at a huge burden to Starfleet's budget.

Which means the ships the Enterprise is going to join at Laurentean may or may not be in any position to intercept Nero until LONG after Earth has been destroyed, and ditto for whatever the Andorians can bring to the table. There could be twenty starships hanging out in that fleet action with only three of them being fast enough to make the intercept.

Even if there is no jammong, what can anyone do about it by the time Enterprise arrives anyplace?

Especially since Nero has root access to the defense grid and can simply switch his IFF/transponder code so that traffic control won't be able to tell what the Narada really is until he starts drilling.