That's still only 1 or two seasons worth of stories before it gets stale and the "They'll always fail to get home" thing fully sets in.
They needed something else, to keep them in the Delta Quadrant. A real mission and plot.
[Question] Why do people hate VOY so much?
- Thread starter AlanAlias
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That's still only 1 or two seasons worth of stories before it gets stale and the "They'll always fail to get home" thing fully sets in.
They needed something else, to keep them in the Delta Quadrant. A real mission and plot.
When I was a kid I was a huge Voyager fan. Loved DS9 and TNG too, of course.
I've only just returned to Trek after quite a lengthy absence, and all I feel when I watch Voyager is disappointment. It should've - could've - been so, so much more, but was instead content to settle for mediocrity. Nothing and no one changed, they cheerfully zipped their way through the Delta Quadrant until they emerged from a Borg sphere in the Alpha Quadrant, complete with Batmobile armour (lol).
I wanted to see these people fight with each other on ideological grounds. I wanted to see them struggle to survive. I wanted to see Janeway wrestle with the consequences of her decisions (Night doesn't count - it just came out of the blue, too little, too late). I wanted to see a continuity of theme and developing plot arcs - all reasonable expectations in television storytelling. The two Fair Haven stories do not count.
The Enterprise-D is often mocked for looking like a cruise ship, but I think the real luxury liner of the Star Trek universe is the USS Voyager.
I also cannot stand watching Harry Kim. I just can barely tolerate even looking at him. That Kes was written off the show and he was allowed to stay is a heinous crime.
Oh well. What's done is done.
I've only just returned to Trek after quite a lengthy absence, and all I feel when I watch Voyager is disappointment. It should've - could've - been so, so much more, but was instead content to settle for mediocrity. Nothing and no one changed, they cheerfully zipped their way through the Delta Quadrant until they emerged from a Borg sphere in the Alpha Quadrant, complete with Batmobile armour (lol).
I wanted to see these people fight with each other on ideological grounds. I wanted to see them struggle to survive. I wanted to see Janeway wrestle with the consequences of her decisions (Night doesn't count - it just came out of the blue, too little, too late). I wanted to see a continuity of theme and developing plot arcs - all reasonable expectations in television storytelling. The two Fair Haven stories do not count.
The Enterprise-D is often mocked for looking like a cruise ship, but I think the real luxury liner of the Star Trek universe is the USS Voyager.
I also cannot stand watching Harry Kim. I just can barely tolerate even looking at him. That Kes was written off the show and he was allowed to stay is a heinous crime.
Oh well. What's done is done.
This was about the first thing coming to my mind when I read part of this thread yesterday. But after some more thought, I concluded it wasn' true.
Certainly the EMH and Seven changed and grew in a huge way.
Neelix, Tom and B'Elanna were decidedly different characters in S7 than they were in S1. Kes is somewhat hard to judge but I think she changed too.
Janeway is somewhere in the middle, I believe. Sometimes I'd like to believe that after 7 years in the Delta Quadrant she became a little less reckless, a little wiser, but every now and then she takes an impetuous action again ("Janeway or the highway").
I'd agree that we see no change of note in Tuvok, Kim and Chakotay. I'd contrast this to a show like DS9, where it seems even the minor characters receive some character development.
^ I can't argue with the points you raised specifically, but having spent the last few weeks jumping around the series in no discernable order, I can't see really any significant changes in the majority of the characters.
I agree with you about Seven and the EMH. More about the EMH than about Seven, who seemed to come to a screeching halt development-wise after 'Hope and Fear.' But with the others, I just can't see it.
Whilst we're talking about characters (and to prove I'm not just being a Negative Nelly), I'll single Neelix out for some praise. When he got to carry an episode (ie, Jetrel, Fair Trade, Mortal Coil, Once Upon a Time, Riddles, Homestead) it was clearly shown that there was rich material to mine with that character. In fact, he's really the only character that had a nice, complete arc - wrapped up in a bow one episode before the series finale. He joined the crew, took on a role, struggled with feelings of waning usefulness and was being drawn further from his home as the crew was getting closer to its, only to find a nice lady and a chance to have the family that circumstance had always robbed him off.
I mean, that's pretty good stuff - comparatively speaking. The EMH didn't even get a name.
I agree with you about Seven and the EMH. More about the EMH than about Seven, who seemed to come to a screeching halt development-wise after 'Hope and Fear.' But with the others, I just can't see it.
Whilst we're talking about characters (and to prove I'm not just being a Negative Nelly), I'll single Neelix out for some praise. When he got to carry an episode (ie, Jetrel, Fair Trade, Mortal Coil, Once Upon a Time, Riddles, Homestead) it was clearly shown that there was rich material to mine with that character. In fact, he's really the only character that had a nice, complete arc - wrapped up in a bow one episode before the series finale. He joined the crew, took on a role, struggled with feelings of waning usefulness and was being drawn further from his home as the crew was getting closer to its, only to find a nice lady and a chance to have the family that circumstance had always robbed him off.
I mean, that's pretty good stuff - comparatively speaking. The EMH didn't even get a name.
Neelix changed from an opportunist that only looked what was in it for him, a person you really could trust no further than his back, to someone that you could genuinely rely on (not that he never made error of judgements in the last seasons, of course).
Paris changed from a womanizing rogue who had refused to grow up to someone that took his responsibilities seriously if push came to shove (even if he lapsed every now and then).
Torres changed from an angry person that let nobody come near her and only trusted Chakotay (and even him only to a certain degree), to someone that was a lot more comfortable around people (even though I had the feeling that at the end of the series she was only halfway there).
These changes were not pushed in our face the same way the changes of 7 and the doctor were (often being the main theme of episodes), but they were therefore no less profound, in my opinion.
Those changes, though, are pretty superficial.
So okay, granting that Tom Paris goes from being a womaniser to a faithful husband in 7 years. Big whoop.
B'Elanna goes from angry to less angry. Also big whoop.
How does this compare to the character arcs of Sisko, Odo, Bashir, Kira, or even supporting characters like Winn and Dukat? I don't think it does.
I stand by my original point: you can jump into any episode of Voyager at any time and all the characters are pretty much as they were and as they will be.
To return to the original question in this thread: Voyager lacked direction and didn't even try to fulfil its original premise. Despite some truly wonderful episodes, the series as a whole never had anything to say for itself. It's a genuine tragedy.
So okay, granting that Tom Paris goes from being a womaniser to a faithful husband in 7 years. Big whoop.
B'Elanna goes from angry to less angry. Also big whoop.
How does this compare to the character arcs of Sisko, Odo, Bashir, Kira, or even supporting characters like Winn and Dukat? I don't think it does.
I stand by my original point: you can jump into any episode of Voyager at any time and all the characters are pretty much as they were and as they will be.
To return to the original question in this thread: Voyager lacked direction and didn't even try to fulfil its original premise. Despite some truly wonderful episodes, the series as a whole never had anything to say for itself. It's a genuine tragedy.
It sounds like you just don't like the choice for the series' format ("standalone episodes with a reset button"). Well, I prefer the DS9 format myself, too. But to be fair, the standalone format has always been the trek standard, and only DS9 (and perhaps ENT s3 and s4) had any significant arches.
In TNG or TOS too, you could essentially have swapped almost any episode with any other and it wouldn't have made much difference, story-wise. The same even holds for most "filler" episodes in DS9 itself.
Although this 'reset button' makes any "character arc" impossible, it does not preclude character development.
Early Picard, for example was more grumpy and more "arrogant" than his later version. Data was much more "normal" in S7 than in S1 (a nice reminder of that can be found in All good things ...). And so on.
While there's perhaps no change in "the surface story", there are background changes long-time viewers can pick up and appreciate. I think the same holds for VOY.
The audiance doesn't sit still, just because use of the "reset button" might have worked when TNG was made doesn't mean it'll work when VOY was made. Audiance tastes could have moved on, and had VOY been set in the AQ/BQ I suspect they might have gotten away with use of the "reset button". But VOY unlike TNG had a clear distict goal to get home unlike TNG which was on to the next adventure.
...so you've met the human race then?
To pick a fight with a human you need to exist....that'll really piss `em off.
Thankfully, to defeat a human, you need to simply leave them by themselves for a bit, after which they will arrange to beat the living hell out of themselves.
You know, Voyager was the wrong (episodic) show when 'interesting' T.V. was moving away from it. It was superficial in the way that much of TOS was. It seemed to be TNG lite. It had characters and actors I just didn't like and didn't change my opinion of. It had a ridiculous reset button. It lacked continuity. It lacked internal logic. It threw away it's premise of 'two crews'. The Kazon were dire. There had just been too much 'planet of the week' Trekking, etc., etc., etc.
There were many, many reasons why it wasn't exactly great. The bottom line was, it was still Trek I hadn't seen. I watched every episode and enjoyed them. We should be so lucky now...
There were many, many reasons why it wasn't exactly great. The bottom line was, it was still Trek I hadn't seen. I watched every episode and enjoyed them. We should be so lucky now...
I honestly think the reset button is a complete myth that has been allowed to be perpetuated online for so long that everybody now accepts it was the case without question.
One of the most lauded things about TNG was that it had true ongoing character growth which was refreshing for it's day. Sure, it didn't do 'arcs' in the sense that they are understood today... but things were not simply 'reset' and forgotten about after each episode. Stuff that happened in Season One would get namechecked in Season Four, or events that transpired in one episode might come back to haunt the characters in other episodes much later down the track. It certainly wasn't a continuity free zone, and I dislike that it has gained this unfortunate (and inaccurate) reputation over the years.
It's harder to quantify same in VOYAGER's case though, as there *are* moments where it flatly contradicts itself, or characters seem to stagnate. Maybe people were more atuned to it by the time VOY came along, as it stood in contrast to the DS9. But, definitely in TNG's case, the effect of the reset button has been blown out of all proportion over the years, IMHO.
Well certainly TNG generally had continuity, some of which carried over into DSN such as Worf's arc with Gowron, Duras etc.. With VOY however as it was moving away from regions of space it had to find new ways of doing a similar thing. VOY generally adopted the planet of the week approach, similar to TNG and TOS however being set in the DQ for the most part we never get the impression that there was some race that claimed that particular region of space, yes in the early seasons we had the Kazon with the Vidiians being a bit more of a scavanger race as they searched for a cure.
So just as DSN did with the Dominion VOY could have dropped hints about a race/alliance that claimed this region of space and that they might be able to help VOY if friendly or best to avoid meaning VOY has to try and sneak their way through their claimed region of space.
Or perhaps VOY was just caught when tastes where changing to a more serialised approach of TV. I doubt we can point to a single thing as to why VOY seems to generate a feeling of disappointment amongest some fans. We all have our likes and dislikes when it comes to what we want from a TV show, for some VOY was their fourth ST show for others their first which can impact on ow they viewe it i.e same old same old vs all new. Some like a more serialised aproach/high level of continuity others not so much.
VOY did produce some very good episodes of ST, but for me it was largely average ST with the aforementioned few moments of brilliance.
So just as DSN did with the Dominion VOY could have dropped hints about a race/alliance that claimed this region of space and that they might be able to help VOY if friendly or best to avoid meaning VOY has to try and sneak their way through their claimed region of space.
Or perhaps VOY was just caught when tastes where changing to a more serialised approach of TV. I doubt we can point to a single thing as to why VOY seems to generate a feeling of disappointment amongest some fans. We all have our likes and dislikes when it comes to what we want from a TV show, for some VOY was their fourth ST show for others their first which can impact on ow they viewe it i.e same old same old vs all new. Some like a more serialised aproach/high level of continuity others not so much.
VOY did produce some very good episodes of ST, but for me it was largely average ST with the aforementioned few moments of brilliance.
That's because at the end of Season 1, Kira's antagonistic role vs. Sisko was transferred onto a much better character (and actress), Kai Winn. When Kira started to get along with Sisko, they didn't just eliminate the Bajor/Federation conflict and then replace it with absolutely nothing - but that is what the Voyager show did in its pilot with its counterpart conflict (Maquis/Federation), to Voyager's great detriment.
Furthermore, DS9 has plenty of additional internal conflicts besides the ones you mentioned, like Odo/Quark, Garak/Odo, Garak/Sisko, Quark/Rom, Quark/Sisko, Sisko/Eddington, Odo/Eddington, Odo/Worf, Quark/Brunt etc.
In contrast, Voyager had hardly any internal conflict and hence hardly any drama. That makes watching/listening to the Voyager crew members interact with each other about as much fun as watching paint dry. [Incidentally, TNG is equally bad in this regard as well as in many others, but generally seems to get a free pass for some inexplicable reason.] To return this post to the OP's question, almost no drama is one reason why I hate Voyager.
Others reasons are: it has no overall story, it has virtually no character development except for some with Seven and the Doctor, most episodes have nothing to do with the premise whatsoever, many of its uninteresting characters are interchangeable with each other (i.e. Paris/Kim/Chakotay), anything significant that happens gets reset by the end of the episode, and very rarely does it present any unique or interesting SciFi ideas.
A handful of Voyager episodes are good SciFi stories, but the majority are nonsense filler that have nothing to do with SciFi, like holodeck soap operas, wasting time watching the equivalent to NASCAR races in space or holograms singing operas on stage, etc.
That is not to say that the other Trek shows are completely immune to all of the problems I've mentioned, but with Voyager those problems are so prevalent that they make the ratio of unworthwhile content to worthwhile content so unfavorable that watching Voyager is neither entertaining nor thought-provoking most of the time.
Winn was a straight up villain.
They did, it was never that important after S1.
All minor, insignificant things.
I'm sorry they didn't all turn into bloodthirsty morons. It's not like their situation was ever that bad.
An no, the other series didn't have that much internal conflict either (including TOS and DS9).
That's Gilligan syndrome for you.
Yeah, because Kirk Spock and McCoy were so changed over time
It's Gilligan Syndrome.
All the series did this. Especially the ones treated with kid's gloves like TOS and DS9.
BlahblahblahTrekshouldonlybethe20thcenturywithnodifferencesblahblahblah.
Idiots who do nothing but conflict with one another when there's real problems at hand have no business leaving their homes.
It's why I was truly sick and tired of Spock and McCoy's racist swipes by the end of TOS.
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The first i have ever heard of this was from YOU. Voyager has always been supported by the Trekkers with Captain Janeway being the TOP . I am NO WAY a trekker myself , but from the magazines and conventions that i have watched and by this Panel it is quite clear there has been a LOT of support of Voyager
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6xM4txpwQ0
I just have to say that i cannot believe Mulgrew had put her dentures in a live panel show , i was like
.Did she REALLY do that? Tell me she did not . She MUST have been on something because its a rule NEVER to go on a live panel - especially one that is highly publicized as an ALL captains panel without your dentures
I feel this topic was just a rooze to bring contention in the room. If you are not a supporter of Voyager, that is fine . Maybe this section is not somewhere for you to put a damper on people who truly love and appreciate Voyager
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6xM4txpwQ0
I just have to say that i cannot believe Mulgrew had put her dentures in a live panel show , i was like
.Did she REALLY do that? Tell me she did not . She MUST have been on something because its a rule NEVER to go on a live panel - especially one that is highly publicized as an ALL captains panel without your dentures I feel this topic was just a rooze to bring contention in the room. If you are not a supporter of Voyager, that is fine . Maybe this section is not somewhere for you to put a damper on people who truly love and appreciate Voyager
I feel this topic was just a rooze to bring contention in the room. If you are not a supporter of Voyager, that is fine . Maybe this section is not somewhere for you to put a damper on people who truly love and appreciate Voyager
Then feel free to stay out of it. We're free to discuss all aspects of the show, not just your inane fantasy with Janeway and 7 sleeping together.
But characters who don't conflict with each other at all don't make good drama. Especially when the premise their creators thrust them into is custom made for some interesting conflict.
Voyager creators made their bed, but didn't want to lay in it. That, IMO, is the problem.
You can't get 7 years based on nothing but internal conflict, not unless you change the entire cast every few years or the people are insane.
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