So who did the worst single acting job in the first 10 films.

[Orphalesion]

It does seem a natural thing to happen, but from what I understand, it's not that Vulcans have no emotions; it's that they have to suppress them for the sake of themselves and everyone else. From what I recall, the Vulcans before they suppressed their emotions were more like earlier humans - brutish, prone to making important decisions based on feelings, etc. It's certainly possible that they could reconcile those emotions with the logic they've mostly mastered today, but it can get iffy as we see with T'pol in ST:ENT. I also think Vulcans are used to give that "purely logical" viewpoint often to counter how we humans have a tendency to fly off the handle. It's not always the right viewpoint or the one that works out best but it's nice to have that different perspective.

I always thought the Vulcans were throwing out the baby with the bathwater on that one. Possibly they were even fooling themselves a bit on how destructive their emotions were. The "Vulcans without Logic" on Enterprise were (mostly) fine.
Kristie Alley's Saavik is actually my favourite Vulcan because of her more emotional behavior It's (imho) nice to see members of a Alien Species in Star Trek that don't follow their species' stereotype 100%

As to her being half-Romulan, my stance on that (and I know it's a bit immature) if it wasn't in the movie, it didn't happen , the same with Valeris.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

It does seem a natural thing to happen, but from what I understand, it's not that Vulcans have no emotions; it's that they have to suppress them for the sake of themselves and everyone else. From what I recall, the Vulcans before they suppressed their emotions were more like earlier humans - brutish, prone to making important decisions based on feelings, etc. It's certainly possible that they could reconcile those emotions with the logic they've mostly mastered today, but it can get iffy as we see with T'pol in ST:ENT. I also think Vulcans are used to give that "purely logical" viewpoint often to counter how we humans have a tendency to fly off the handle. It's not always the right viewpoint or the one that works out best but it's nice to have that different perspective.

I always thought the Vulcans were throwing out the baby with the bathwater on that one. Possibly they were even fooling themselves a bit on how destructive their emotions were. The "Vulcans without Logic" on Enterprise were (mostly) fine.
Kristie Alley's Saavik is actually my favourite Vulcan because of her more emotional behavior It's (imho) nice to see members of a Alien Species in Star Trek that don't follow their species' stereotype 100%

As to her being half-Romulan, my stance on that (and I know it's a bit immature) if it wasn't in the movie, it didn't happen , the same with Valeris.

Agree with the movie/book thing.

As for Vulcans choosing a path of logic to live their life, to me that was always similar to someone who chooses not to drink or engage in some other behavior they consider a detriment to their life. It doesn't mean a non-drinker is incapable of drinking, and I've even known some long time non drinkers who have started drinking, in differing quantities, at some point for one reason or another.

Vulcans see emotional as an undesirable trait so they do all they can to purge themselves of it and use emotion instead. It doesn't mean they don't have the ability to EVER feel or show emotions and some control it better than others, but the ability to feel emotions is still there, even if it's dormant and they suppress it.

Just because a Vulcan shows emotion at times doesn't make them a bad Vulcan, just like it doesn't make someone who never drank before, and then decides he likes a few beer a week in his 40's, a raging alcoholic.

It's also like the wild instinct in dogs. No matter how domesticated they are the wild animal instinct in still in dogs and does come out at times. Indeed there have been stories of family dogs that were passive for years and suddenly one day went into a wild animal attack mode for no real reason on a family member.

Vulcans clearly have emotions, like Sybok. Most of them choose not to incorporate them into their daily lives.

 

[Orphalesion]

Agree with the movie/book thing.

As for Vulcans choosing a path of logic to live their life, to me that was always similar to someone who chooses not to drink or engage in some other behavior they consider a detriment to their life. It doesn't mean a non-drinker is incapable of drinking, and I've even known some long time non drinkers who have started drinking, in differing quantities, at some point for one reason or another.

Vulcans see emotional as an undesirable trait so they do all they can to purge themselves of it and use emotion instead. It doesn't mean they don't have the ability to EVER feel or show emotions and some control it better than others, but the ability to feel emotions is still there, even if it's dormant and they suppress it.

Just because a Vulcan shows emotion at times doesn't make them a bad Vulcan, just like it doesn't make someone who never drank before, and then decides he likes a few beer a week in his 40's, a raging alcoholic.

It's also like the wild instinct in dogs. No matter how domesticated they are the wild animal instinct in still in dogs and does come out at times. Indeed there have been stories of family dogs that were passive for years and suddenly one day went into a wild animal attack mode for no real reason on a family member.

Vulcans clearly have emotions, like Sybok. Most of them choose not to incorporate them into their daily lives.

I'm surprised that as a strict teetotaler myself I have never drawn the connection... thank you for opening my eyes to that
And let's not forget there are even humans in real life who try to suppress/control their emotions/desires like followers of Stoicism and Zen.
So I always liked the idea of Vulcans having different grades of "emotionlessness" it gives their culture/species more depth.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Agree with the movie/book thing.

As for Vulcans choosing a path of logic to live their life, to me that was always similar to someone who chooses not to drink or engage in some other behavior they consider a detriment to their life. It doesn't mean a non-drinker is incapable of drinking, and I've even known some long time non drinkers who have started drinking, in differing quantities, at some point for one reason or another.

Vulcans see emotional as an undesirable trait so they do all they can to purge themselves of it and use emotion instead. It doesn't mean they don't have the ability to EVER feel or show emotions and some control it better than others, but the ability to feel emotions is still there, even if it's dormant and they suppress it.

Just because a Vulcan shows emotion at times doesn't make them a bad Vulcan, just like it doesn't make someone who never drank before, and then decides he likes a few beer a week in his 40's, a raging alcoholic.

It's also like the wild instinct in dogs. No matter how domesticated they are the wild animal instinct in still in dogs and does come out at times. Indeed there have been stories of family dogs that were passive for years and suddenly one day went into a wild animal attack mode for no real reason on a family member.

Vulcans clearly have emotions, like Sybok. Most of them choose not to incorporate them into their daily lives.

I'm surprised that as a strict teetotaler myself I have never drawn the connection... thank you for opening my eyes to that
And let's not forget there are even humans in real life who try to suppress/control their emotions/desires like followers of Stoicism and Zen.
So I always liked the idea of Vulcans having different grades of "emotionlessness" it gives their culture/species more depth.

Cheers. I haven't had a drink in over 25 years, not because I drank too much, but I realized after a point I just didn't like the taste of beer, wine and most other liquor and I didn't care anymore if that made me "uncool".

Unfortunately I haven't had the same success with soft drinks. I'd been doing a good job on cutting way down on them then those bastards at Coca Cola introduced Vanilla Coke and I totally love the taste.......Seriously it was like Coke had someone spying on me personally and said "We're losing the **** ******* (my name) market, we'd better do something quick and Vanilla Coke was their response.

Well I guess we all gotta die of something

 

[JWPlatt]

Just because a Vulcan shows emotion at times doesn't make them a bad Vulcan...

Yes it does. That's a human judgement from our own point of view that offers no consideration to Vulcan sensibilities.

On the other hand, I could see Vulcans showing emotion similar to someone streaking (naked) through the city streets. They'll do it for a thrill to get a reaction from other people. And some other free-spirited Vulcans might cheer them on. But they'll still get arrested and maybe be put through psychological testing.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Just because a Vulcan shows emotion at times doesn't make them a bad Vulcan...

Yes it does. That's a human judgement from our own point of view that offers no consideration to Vulcan sensibilities.

On the other hand, I could see Vulcans showing emotion similar to someone streaking (naked) through the city streets. They'll do it for a thrill to get a reaction from other people. And some other free-spirited Vulcans might cheer them on. But they'll still get arrested and maybe be put through psychological testing.

Then every almost Vulcan is a bad one. Spock showed emotion, Sarek showed emotion, Savvik showed emotion, Sybok showed emotion, T'Pol showed emotion, NuSpock shows incredibly violent emotions. And all of the following showed emotion reacting to situations and not just to physical conditions like Pon Farr or what Sarek was dealing with before he died that compromised their abilities.

The most unemotional Vulcan IMHO was Valeris....And she was a f'n traitor.......But I guess she was a good Vulcan.

Hell in "Unification" Spock speaks specifically of the fact that he believed he had the ability to see beyond pure logic, strongly implying he used emotions in his thought processes, and make his decisions based on that ability and that Sarek thought it was a weakness while Spock thought it was a source of great strength........So I guess Spock must be one of the worst Vulcans of all.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

^I remember Valeris showing emotion during her discussion with pock in the latter's quarters. Her behavior may not have seemed out of the ordinary by human standards, but Nick Meyer points out that the scene was written to illustrate that she was on the verge of a nervous breakdown because of the situation with the Klingons.

In any case, I agree that most Vulcans we've seen showed at least some degree of emotion. Of the regular Vulcan cast members, Tuvok was probably the least emotional of the bunch, but even he showed emotion in private--as was the case when he lit a prayer candle for Kes after she departed the ship and when he hurriedly read through a letter from his wife.

--Sran

 

[JWPlatt]

Human writers humanize everything they introduce for a human audience to relate to so that the show remains popular. That's why the Borg became so easily defeated. Things are introduced to be different, interesting, and sometimes threatening and undefeatable without an act of something like Q. But once they become a regular part of the series, they inevitably become human, including Q, because that's what we want - not necessarily what the characters want in an organic sense of storytelling. We want to be superior and win, and have our way be the right way.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

^I agree. This rule also applies to how fans perceive alien characters. For instance, a number of us have been talking about Commander Donatra lately--a character who's generally well-liked by fans--which most likely stems from her being more human than her Romulan peers, not necessarily in terms of her physiology, but in terms of her beliefs and actions (based on what we've seen on screen), which jive much more with those taken by Picard and his crew than do the actions taken by other characters featured in Nemesis.

It's much easier to like characters who appear sympathetic to humans and their goals. Donatra appears suspicious of Shinzon and later rides to the rescue when the Enterprise is on the verge of being destroyed by the Scimitar, things that make her instantly likeable to fans who root for their human heroes to prevail over Shinzon--who is human but behaves as something much less so, which makes him difficult to relate to and like.

--Sran

 

[enterprisecvn65]

^I remember Valeris showing emotion during her discussion with pock in the latter's quarters. Her behavior may not have seemed out of the ordinary by human standards, but Nick Meyer points out that the scene was written to illustrate that she was on the verge of a nervous breakdown because of the situation with the Klingons.

In any case, I agree that most Vulcans we've seen showed at least some degree of emotion. Of the regular Vulcan cast members, Tuvok was probably the least emotional of the bunch, but even he showed emotion in private--as was the case when he lit a prayer candle for Kes after she departed the ship and when he hurriedly read through a letter from his wife.

--Sran

Valeris may have been showing, or at least attempting to show emotions in some scenes, it just never came off to me as very convincing. When Spock slapped the phaser out of her hand you can tell he's pissed, when Savvik mutters "Damn" you can tell she's upset, when Sarek confronts Kirk in TSFS you can tell he's pretty pissed off about Kirk's decision to leave Spock in Genesis, even though he wasn't screaming and ranting.

Valeris never really came off as showing emotion, despite the fact her words implied she was feeling some. Which brings me back to the OP of this thread that I thought Kim Cattrell did a terrible job in the role. Because she, out of all the Vulcans in ST, should have been the most conflicted and prone to emotional moments but she was pretty flat all the time.

Whether it was her acting ability or Meyer's direction I can't say, but she was such a smug little ass from the start it was almost impossible not to pick her out as a conspirator from the start because she stood out so much.

 

[JWPlatt]

...Valeris never really came off as showing emotion... she, out of all the Vulcans in ST, should have been the most conflicted and prone to emotional moments but she was pretty flat all the time....

Of course she didn't show emotion - she's a Vulcan. And here we are again trying to humanize, or force our humanity upon, a character who isn't human with judgements against a Vulcan for not displaying emotion or perhaps not even feeling emotion. There is prejudice in that.

...she was such a smug little ass...

Heh! Now that's funny because it's true. Yes, smugness, pride (Kirk: "You must be very proud."), amusement (Valeris: "I don't believe so, sir."), and pride. Despite what I say above, Kim Cattrall did display plenty of human emotion - too much, I thought, for a Vulcan. I saw the actress and not the character in those moments.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

...Valeris never really came off as showing emotion... she, out of all the Vulcans in ST, should have been the most conflicted and prone to emotional moments but she was pretty flat all the time....

Of course she didn't show emotion - she's a Vulcan. And here we are again trying to humanize, or force our humanity upon, a character who isn't human with judgements against a Vulcan for not displaying emotion or perhaps not even feeling emotion. There is prejudice in that.

...she was such a smug little ass...

Heh! Now that's funny because it's true. Yes, smugness, pride (Kirk: "You must be very proud."), amusement (Valeris: "I don't believe so, sir."), and pride. Despite what I say above, Kim Cattrall did display plenty of human emotion - too much, I thought, for a Vulcan. I saw the actress and not the character in those moments.

Relax a little on the trying to force our humanity on the character.

The characters themselves had these moments the writers choose to give to them and they were done for character development and/or plot device and it's pretty clear the audience was expected to notice these episodes.

We didn't just make these up moments in our heads watching the shows and I don't think the writers were being a bunch of prejudiced aholes in their motives.

It's really not worth getting that worked up about.

 

[eyeresist]

Caithlin Dar was fine with me and the least of TFF's problems, really. I got the impression that she used her beauty and feminine wiles to get as far in Romulan politics as she could, but her foolish optimism put her government off, so they were glad to send her off to some loser posting like Paradise City to spin her wheels

The novelisation says she is part human, which might be another explanation for why she is sent to such a shabby post, and why she wears the ear protectors (to hide her "deformity").

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/romulan_evolution.htm

 

[JWPlatt]

...Relax a little on the trying to force our humanity on the character.
It's really not worth getting that worked up about.

I don't appreciate being told what to do and how I feel. FYI - I was relaxed and enjoying the discussion - until this very moment.

The characters themselves had these moments the writers choose to give to them and they were done for character development and/or plot device and it's pretty clear the audience was expected to notice these episodes.

We didn't just make these up moments in our heads watching the shows and I don't think the writers were being a bunch of prejudiced aholes in their motives.

I give the writers and actors free reign over the characters they create, to define and shape them. I have observed they tend to humanize their characters or races, especially those that recur, to allow their audience to relate to the characters and continue watching the show. I didn't say the writers were prejudiced, but nice try. I said your post expressed a judgement against Valeris for being unfeeling. Well, she's a Vulcan, as McCoy observed.

 

[Admiral Archer]

The Spacedock Security Guard that Sulu knocks out in TSFS gets my vote. His delivery of "Don't get smart, Tiny", always snaps me out of the film. Worst, most bland delivery of a line in Star Trek movie history.

 

[eyeresist]

^ That scene is better in concept than execution.

 

[JRoss]

Tom Hardy. This role soured me on the guy until I saw him in Wuthering Heights.

 

[JWPlatt]

Tom Hardy. This role soured me on the guy until I saw him in Wuthering Heights.

He felt badly about it too.

 

[IrishNero]

Decker in TMP. Just something about his all-American Apple-pie, self-righteous Goody two shoes...ugh. On second thought, maybe this is more of a personal vendetta, and hasn't much to do with his acting.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Tom Hardy. This role soured me on the guy until I saw him in Wuthering Heights.

He felt badly about it too.

This thread has cataloged numerous moments of bad acting, particularly from bit players, but I think Hardy's Shinzon is the one that did the most to bring down a film. Never did I feel he was supposed to be Picard's doppelgänger--never did the personal animosity he had for Picard come to life.