So Kirk makes the same mistake TWICE in accepting promotion?

[Timo]

Yet, we see dozens of Galaxy-class ships during DS9, which suggests that either the Federation's ship-yards are much more efficient, or the Galaxy-class is actually considerably less advanced than other starship classes built later.

Why couldn't there be dozens of "best" ships in a fleet that no doubt features hundreds and later is indicated to have thousands if not tens of thousands of ships? It doesn't sound like an exceptional feat of manufacturing - especially when we see even more of the Nebula class ships of the same size and basic design features. (That is, stock footage of ships of that class gets assigned more names backstage and in dialogue than the very few assigned to Galaxy appearances; make of that what you will.)

Even in TMP, we don't really learn much about the state of the art or the total strength of the fleet or the manufacturing capabilities of the Federation. Kirk doesn't obsess about the renovated Enterprise because she would be the best - he obsesses exclusivel because she is the Enterprise. There might indeed be scores of more advanced ships out there at the time, and Kirk has no interest in dragging his butt from behind his comfortable desk for those.

For all we know, Kirk in TMP loved his desk job. But possibly he instead calculated that he needed to take some job to stay current in Starfleet while he was waiting for the Enterprise to return to active service, and he had no interest in going aboard other ships so the prestigious desk was where he settled with pleasure.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

Kirk nay have done the best deskwork that he could, but I cannot see him preferring it to Starship command. Spock says so and he is seldom incorrect.

 

[golddragon71]

When Kirk did the inspection tour it was really just a way to get off-planet and leave the paperwork behind for a little while. I don't think he would have wanted things to turn out the way they did, but I'm pretty sure he was itching for something like Khan or another V'Ger type emergency to pop up so he could use it as an excuse to take the center seat.

 

[Ithekro]

I suppose it is possible that we keep seeing a bunch of Galaxy-class ships in the Dominion Wars battles around DS9 because they are the most survivable of the fleet (maybe they fixed that random coolant leak problem that was suppose to be nearly impossible to happen with all the safety systems in the ship) and therefore the one ship type that almost always made it home.

Which reminds me, were there any Galaxy-class ships in Sisko's fleet when they went to engage the Breen for the first time?

 

[fireproof78]

Might need to talk with a Navy Admiral that was in command of a ship to get if they would rather be in the Captain's chair or behind a desk.

That would be an interesting comparison. I certainly would enjoy that conversation.

I also think that it largely depends upon the individual. There are some who have the drive and need for adventure and excitement regardless of their age or stage of life. There are others who make the transition from different ages and stages with with the same level of energy in taking on a new task.

I would say that Kirk is likely to be dissatisfied with retirement, desk job and any thing else that takes him away from being on a starship. But, I also know that sometimes the organization needs the experience in the leadership to help direct the newer officers and lead the fleet.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

^I wonder if Kirk would have been happier commanding a starbase following his promotion; he would have been stationary, but at least he would have been in space and had plenty to do. Earth-bound assignments definitely did not agree with him.

--Sran

 

[Trekkin]

I can't remember exactly, but what was it that Kirk did between TUC and Generations? If he ended up desk-bound again, you'd think he'd retire and go mountain climbing.

 

[BillJ]

I can't remember exactly, but what was it that Kirk did between TUC and Generations? If he ended up desk-bound again, you'd think he'd retire and go mountain climbing.

He was retired.

 

[Timo]

He was retired in ST:GEN. What he did in the intervening few months (no more than two years in any version of the timelines, certainly), might not be all that interesting... But it is open to speculation.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

Might need to talk with a Navy Admiral that was in command of a ship to get if they would rather be in the Captain's chair or behind a desk.

That would be an interesting comparison. I certainly would enjoy that conversation.

Well, the grand total of one admiral I worked for was not in the habit of confiding in someone on my lowly level. However...

Commanding a warship is a high pressure, high stakes, super-scrutinized position, and people who reach that level are very able, confident, and driven. The small percentage who make flag rank, even more so. They might have fond memories of commanding a vessel, and might consider it more enjoyable. But at the same time they are in their position because they -- and their superiors -- feel that they are able to handle even more complex and consequential issues. If they don't want more responsibility, they can put in their retirement papers and get out of they way for someone who does.

The difference from Trek is, by the time they've reached captain, they've already had a couple periods of shore/staff duty. They know that being "behind a desk" is part of their career, that it's part of learning how different aspects of the service(s) work, and that there are challenges and rewards in that kind of assignment, too. But that's not very interesting to watch, so you don't see it on TV or movies much. Not to mention the fact that being captain of a ship is in large part administrative/managerial work, itself.

I also think that it largely depends upon the individual. There are some who have the drive and need for adventure and excitement regardless of their age or stage of life. There are others who make the transition from different ages and stages with with the same level of energy in taking on a new task.

I would say that Kirk is likely to be dissatisfied with retirement, desk job and any thing else that takes him away from being on a starship. But, I also know that sometimes the organization needs the experience in the leadership to help direct the newer officers and lead the fleet.

The whole thing doesn't hold up to much scrutiny in a larger context, and is really not that great for the Kirk character. Kirk is supposed to be a great leader at one level, but can't take it to the next level. He wants the challenge of commanding a ship, but not the challenge of commanding multiple ships. He wants to pick and choose assignments to get ones he prefers. He accepts promotion then wants to take it back. He gives the benefit of his experience to one ship and core crew, rather than to the larger service.

It's easier to just chalk it up to dramatic license and the desire for a "Captain Kirk" to be at the center of all the adventures.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

^What I never understood, however, is why the writers and producers believed that Kirk's promotion precluded his commanding a ship or a fleet of ships. Why not have the Enterprise serve as part of a larger battle group, with Kirk using the vessel as his flagship?

The concept could still have worked in TWOK, with Reliant serving as one of the ships in the fleet under Kirk's command--and Project Genesis being within Kirk's purview as a member of the Starfleet General Staff (as indicated by Chekov).

Hindsight is always 20/20, but I think an opportunity was missed by limiting Kirk's influence to a single ship.

--Sran

 

[fireproof78]

I certainly agree that it does not hold up under scrutiny either, at least as J.T.B describes it. Kirk's character is one of rising to the challenge that he is presented, regardless of the circumstances, and flag command should be no different.

Honestly, I can see him being a station commander and commanding a battle group without question. Quite honestly, the films could have done themselves a service by spreading out the action and having Kirk in charge of a fleet. When things go south he then takes command directly, giving the climatic battle to the end of the film.

So, yeah, I don't understand why being a flag officer means a boring job? Shouldn't commanding a battle group, you know, a bunch of starships, be just as fun?

 

[Ithekro]

But he's not that kind of Admiral. He's was Chief of Starfleet Operations in TMP and probably head of Starfleet Academy in TWOK (if not still Chief of Starfleet Operations). Neither of those are in charge of battle groups (if Starfleet even has those) nor place him on the front lines of anything, be it a combat area or an exploration front. If he was Chief of Starfleet Operations, he reported to the top advisor on Starfleet operations to the President or Council. He'd be in charge of who goes to what operational commanders in various sectors and quadrant of the Federation. He would more or less be the top Starfleet officer in the fleet unless the equivalent of the Secretary of Starfleet was also an Admiral.

Chief of Naval Operations is the position taken by a full Admiral or Fleet Admiral if one is in use. If Kirk is that guy (he shouldn't be a Rear Admiral then, but full Admiral), than he's not in command of the other admiral, so he would need to go to Admiral Nogura, who would be in charge of Sol or whatever department has USS Enterprise under it, and get his ship back. But Kirk would be the guy who would have assigned everything to all the various admirals across the Federation. He would be an advisor to the Council and President at least part of the time. This might explain were his tape of Project Genesis cames in. Carol proposed it to Starfleet, he's Starfleet's top non-combat Admiral, he proposed it to the Council to get approval for Carol.

He has the boring job of making sure Starfleet runs smoothly across the entire Federation. After 10 or so years of that, I can see him wanted to go back to the simpiler days on the Frontiers of space exploration. It be less stressful and a lot more fun.

 

[Timo]

... is really not that great for the Kirk character.

Why not? It paints him as smarter than the organization he deigns to serve: Kirk defeats the Peter Principle all on his own, because he has superior self-restraint and is not afraid to apply it.

Sure, that's not very nice of him. But it shows great character, and a whole new level of loyalty to the organization...

The dramatic problem comes from us having to accept that his organization would put up with him and his self-declared superiority. But perhaps the crux of his argument with Nogura prior to TMP was that his performance as Chief of SF Ops was not all that great, and a demotion would be a great service to the Federation! (It's not as if Starfleet would have to pay extra for his expertise and service years after demotion to Captain level, as they supposedly pay him nothing anyway...)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[fireproof78]

But he's not that kind of Admiral. He's was Chief of Starfleet Operations in TMP and probably head of Starfleet Academy in TWOK (if not still Chief of Starfleet Operations). Neither of those are in charge of battle groups (if Starfleet even has those) nor place him on the front lines of anything, be it a combat area or an exploration front. If he was Chief of Starfleet Operations, he reported to the top advisor on Starfleet operations to the President or Council. He'd be in charge of who goes to what operational commanders in various sectors and quadrant of the Federation. He would more or less be the top Starfleet officer in the fleet unless the equivalent of the Secretary of Starfleet was also an Admiral.

Chief of Naval Operations is the position taken by a full Admiral or Fleet Admiral if one is in use. If Kirk is that guy (he shouldn't be a Rear Admiral then, but full Admiral), than he's not in command of the other admiral, so he would need to go to Admiral Nogura, who would be in charge of Sol or whatever department has USS Enterprise under it, and get his ship back. But Kirk would be the guy who would have assigned everything to all the various admirals across the Federation. He would be an advisor to the Council and President at least part of the time. This might explain were his tape of Project Genesis cames in. Carol proposed it to Starfleet, he's Starfleet's top non-combat Admiral, he proposed it to the Council to get approval for Carol.

He has the boring job of making sure Starfleet runs smoothly across the entire Federation. After 10 or so years of that, I can see him wanted to go back to the simpiler days on the Frontiers of space exploration. It be less stressful and a lot more fun.

I understand what the films present. My position was purely hypothetical that Kirk could have been a front line admiral and that could make for a more interesting film and character arc.

I agree that being the CSO would be the type of command Kirk could get bored with, but the angst that is presented still feels like he resents being successful in Starfleet. But, that's just the impression I get.

 

[Ronald Held]

Perhaps the Admiralty wanted Kirk at a desk job, to better keep him under control? Chief of Operations and Commandant of SFA are not jobs requiring lots of starship traveling.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

^That idea's been discussed in several novels. In reality, I don't understand why people have the perception that Kirk is uncontrollable or insubordinate. He only violated orders (significantly) during TSFS, which he likely would not have done had Spock's life not been at stake. Additionally, it's not as though he did all of that by himself. The other members of his former senior staff were helping him, and were complicit in any insubordination he committed.

--Sran

 

[Timo]

His pre-movies acts of insubordination are pretty much limited to "Amok Time", too.

But insubordination might not be what Starfleet is worried when reading Kirk's reports of the five-year mission. Rather, the summary might feature expert opinions such as "This man is a menace!" and "He's done more damage to our reputation than the time we blew up Zeta Reticuli by accident!". Kirk is a diplomat plenipotentiary when commanding a starship, and many of his decisions might have been really controversial but unfortunately not legally actionable.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kor]

No matter the original intentions thirty-plus years ago, it does make sense to drop TMP from continuity, there's too much change in the look and feel of things from TOS-TMP-TWOK - going from TOS to TWOK works better.

I disagree completely. That's why I accept TMP and basically ignore TWOK-TUC.

+1

As far as when exactly TMP takes place in relation to the series... In one of the supplemental features on the TMP-DE, Robert Wise said that it was always their intention for the movie to take place just as long after the series as had passed by in real life. He said he didn't know where the idea came from that it was only a couple years later. (I think that comes from the Reeves-Stevenses). But what did Wise know? He was only the director.

Kor

 

[Timo]

Well, the movie as presented has this tidbit about Voyager Six having been lost "over 300 years ago", which is so nicely consistent with the popular idea of "Star Trek takes place exactly 300 years after Star Trek" that it's difficult to think of it as a coincidence. ST:TMP release date plus 300 years would be more than 300 years after the real Voyagers, while the early 2270s would be less than 300 years.

Lots and lots of ideas were generated for ST:TMP. Most saw no practical use in the movie, and thankfully so. This sounds like some of the background work shining through, though.

It's easy to see why ST2 would make people favor the idea that TMP took place earlier - more distance between the two dissimilar takes on Trek is better. But TMP is also dissimilar to TOS, and arguably more so than to ST2.

Timo Saloniemi