When Will the Novels Catch Up the Events Preceding the Reboot?

[Relayer1]

Someone asked this at Shore Leave last year, and Dayton Ward basically said that no one had any idea what the plan was, but that he felt it was good that after The Fall the chronological pace was slowing down so the novels wouldn't reach it very soon.

Also, resettling the surviving Romulans and Remans on a "New Romulus" (or the Vulcans on "New Vulcan" in the other timeline) would, after a time, start to become indistinguishable to the previous status quos. Sure, their populations are greatly reduced, but the races weren't eradicated. Both had starships out on patrol and (presumably) citizens living on colony worlds which weren't destroyed by Hobus or Nero.

I think both have been starfaring for long enough that enough of their assets are off planet. Support infrastructure (logistical, command and control etc.) for fleet operations to continue shouldn't be an problem, and the majority of the fleet should have survived.

A bigger problem would probably be recreating the governmental and civilian authorities after the initial martial law period.

 

[Jarvisimo]

But the RSE clearly has the ability to form another capital on a new planet, as demonstrated with the former Imperial Romulan State's (wealthier, better supplied) capital of Archenar Prime. It's even in a better economic zone.... I don't see why Romulus's destruction means the end of the state, although there might be a shake up of the 100 or how it is governed.....

 

[Christopher]

^That's Achernar (pronounced "ACK-er-nahr" or "AY-ker-nahr"), please, not "Archernar." It's got nothing to do with bows and arrows or 22nd-century starship captains. It's from Arabic ākhir an-nahr, meaning "end of the river" (i.e. the constellation Eridanus, which represents the River Po).

 

[Relayer1]

It's kind of a shame they killed off Donatra. This would've been her big chance...

 

[laibcoms]

Wow, interesting discussion and someone finally asked it.

I'm really not sure how they will carry on after that however. How do you write in a Trek universe where Romulus and it's system has been destroyed and the populations and characters killed or evacuated without referring to the events of the film ?

STO did it. The current year is 2401. So, yes, it is possible to create a story without Romulus.

As for the film -- and I'm confused why it is being debated for pages -- as was explained later (relative to the quoted post above), litverse is under contract to follow what's in the canon. Canon being the live-action sanctioned by CBS and/or Paramount.

If so, then, the litverse will indeed reach the point wherein [1] Romulus was destroyed;
[2] Spock was sucked-in a blackhole;
[3] a universe with red matter technology;
[4] a universe with Romulans holding advance borg technology (which would fit in the Typhoon story of trying to be at par with or be more advanced than the Khitomer Alliance).

Anything mentioned by our canon-Prime Spock in ST11, those are the only canon materials, as far, our "canon Primeverse" is concerned. It leaves a wide area for our litverse authors to develop and explore.

Yes, a supernova will occur. Romulus will be gone. There's the red matter technology that will be exposed. Romulans secretly developing technologies based on Borg tech. "The" Spock, dead (relative to our canon-Primeverse). (Come to think of it, all borg tech were transformed by the Caelar… then again, on-screen is king in Star Trek.)

We're one year away from it, in-universe time.

Do we need something, like a hint in the novels mentioning any detection of a supernova soon to happen? Nope, not at all. That story can be told in the novel itself, spanning months, even years, like in Destiny.

For all we know, someone already finished the story, ready for a 2016 release.

(Correct me if I'm wrong. But the above is how I see it works.)

 

[Idran]

The movie didn't say anything about Borg, did it? I don't remember the Borg coming up anywhere, and I just checked the transcript at Chakoteya and the word isn't used anywhere in the movie according to it.

Edit: Okay yeah, the "Borg technology" thing came from Countdown and a bonus feature on the DVD, it wasn't anywhere in the movie itself. And it's only what's in the actual episode or movie that counts; special features, concept art, behind-the-scenes background information, screens not intended to be visible, anything like that is wholly optional to tie-in writers.

Also, nitpicking, but since Disavowed is in January 2386, we're between a year and just under two years away from it; it was never said when in 2387 the supernova happened, they could always get more space for themselves by placing it in late December. :P

 

[The Wormhole]

Wow, interesting discussion and someone finally asked it.

What do you mean "finally?" This question's been asked every six months or so ever since Trek XI's release

[4] a universe with Romulans holding advance borg technology (which would fit in the Typhoon story of trying to be at par with or be more advanced than the Khitomer Alliance).

[snip]

Romulans secretly developing technologies based on Borg tech. "The" Spock, dead (relative to our canon-Primeverse). (Come to think of it, all borg tech were transformed by the Caelar… then again, on-screen is king in Star Trek.)

No, there is no mention of Borg technology in Trek XI. That comes from the Countdown comic, which is itself non-canon.

We're one year away from it, in-universe time.

And as I mentioned earlier in this thread, novel continuity can easily avoid the year 2387 until 2019 at least.

For all we know, someone already finished the story, ready for a 2016 release.

I sincerely doubt it. Besides, even if such a story were going to happen in 2016 (and again, I sincerely doubt it) it wouldn't already be done. In fact, there's a good chance it wouldn't even be started.

 

[Christopher]

Besides, even if such a story were going to happen in 2016 (and again, I sincerely doubt it) it wouldn't already be done. In fact, there's a good chance it wouldn't even be started.

Actually, if it hadn't been at least proposed and accepted already, it'd probably be too late to get it out by the end of 2016, unless it were an e-book exclusive. I'm currently writing a novel that's due out sometime in the first half of 2016.

 

[Sci]

References to the Narada being outfitted with Borg technology are not canonical, it's true. However, it is not incompatible with the Treklitverse. The novel A Singular Destiny made it clear that Starfleet has been collecting inert Borg technology in the hopes of re-activating them and utilizing them to advance Federation technology and science. The Romulans may well have been doing the same thing.

I don't think the Borg link is necessary, though. I have no trouble believing that standard civilian defense systems for the 24th Century Narada could take down even some fairly advanced 23rd Century starships and starbases. Just like I have no trouble believing that the 23rd Century USS Defiant could take down even advanced 22nd Century D'Kyr-, Kumari-, and NX-class starships. You have to assume that a century's worth of progress is real and meaningful, even if the viewers' experience is still "egg-bubble shields" and "beams of energy."

ETA:

I find myself wondering if the novels might end up having any wriggle room on the ultimate fate of Spock Prime. Obviously this will depend on whether or not the next film touches on his fate (which itself would certainly be affected by Leonard Nimoy's passing). But if the next film isn't definitive about Spock Prime's fate, I do wonder if the novels might eventually have some liberty in whether or not Spock Prime could return to the Primeverse.

 

[laibcoms]

What do you mean "finally?" This question's been asked every six months or so ever since Trek XI's release

Sorry, I meant, I want to ask it but I don't want to since no doubt it was asked already. ^_^

No, there is no mention of Borg technology in Trek XI. That comes from the Countdown comic, which is itself non-canon.

Ah, thank you for the clarification. Funny, I didn't read the comics, I don't even know what's in there, yet I was under the understanding Nero's ship was outfitted with Borg tech. My memory must be playing games with me, what I remember, this piece of information was mentioned in the cinema release.

If not, then I guess I must have picked up the information somewhere else, but definitely not from the comics, hehe (Hmm... on second thought, I might have picked it up from STO instead.)

Regardless, the point is, whatever was mentioned in ST11 is canon, and the old Spock and Nero's company, were from the canon-primeverse that we've watched in the past, and the litverse cannot avoid.

I sincerely doubt it. Besides, even if such a story were going to happen in 2016 (and again, I sincerely doubt it) it wouldn't already be done. In fact, there's a good chance it wouldn't even be started.

Granted. But it doesn't mean it cannot be mentioned in passing. That particular point in time can be skipped altogether in litverse both real-world time and in-universe time. Though that doesn't mean it never happened.

If this point in time was skipped in litverse, say, we're at 2410 already in-universe, Romulus still blew up due to a supernova, old Spock died (relatively speaking). On-screen canon is "king" in Star Trek's setup.

Which of course will affect the Typhon Pack. The Romulan Empire, having lost their capital world, the unification movement. The future is very much "free-for-all" if you will. Anything can happen after that point.

And I for one would love to see new conflicts. Not just on a galactic scale (which Destiny, Typhon Pact, and The Fall series were mostly about) but internal, local scale, similar to the Andorian crisis.

We're at litverse's "golden age". I agree, some slowdown is in order. But moving time forward shouldn't be slowed just because we're too fast. Stories can be told for a specific point in time. In-universe chronological order shouldn't be tied-in to publication year.

Atonement could be one good example, if my hunch is correct. A story or in-universe "event" still set before the Assassination but the novel published after The Fall.

So, we may be reading 2410 novels already, but we're still seeing novels being released for stories in 2386. Doesn't make it any different than the Enterprise series.

 

[Relayer1]

I find myself wondering if the novels might end up having any wriggle room on the ultimate fate of Spock Prime. Obviously this will depend on whether or not the next film touches on his fate (which itself would certainly be affected by Leonard Nimoy's passing). But if the next film isn't definitive about Spock Prime's fate, I do wonder if the novels might eventually have some liberty in whether or not Spock Prime could return to the Primeverse.

I think they'll probably kill the character off. I rather hope they don't do it offscreen, but it may be too hard to do otherwise. I'd like to see both Spocks meld in a 'katra' passing way...'Remember'...

It would be one way to keep Spock prime. Otherwise, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I had an idea for a Shatner/Nimoy cameo :

Spoiler: Story idea for next movie, not for Treklit

During the film, reference is made to Spock's work being a success setting up New Vulcan.

Then, post credits :

New Vulcan - a wormhole opens and a 'jellyfish' ship appears. Onboard ship, view from over the pilots shoulder as he opens a video link to the planet. Nimoy Spock appears on screen as the pilot says 'Spock - I've been looking for you !'. Spock's eyebrow rises - 'Jim ? But you were...'
Change of viewpoint to see the pilot is a grinning Shatner Kirk. 'Yes, it's been quite a journey - now pack a bag, you're leaving !'

Neither are ever seen again.

On screen at least - I suppose they could always turn up again in Treklit.




Spoiler added just to be on the safeside...

 

[laibcoms]

I'd like to see both Spocks meld in a 'katra' passing way...'Remember'...

Would be very interesting if they do that. We've seen it in the litverse, not sure if there was an episode in the canon series using the same concept. That's a very good way of keeping him alive. Old spock quantum merged with the Abrams-Spock.

 

[Enterprise1701]

No, there is no mention of Borg technology in Trek XI. That comes from the Countdown comic, which is itself non-canon.

Ah, thank you for the clarification. Funny, I didn't read the comics, I don't even know what's in there, yet I was under the understanding Nero's ship was outfitted with Borg tech. My memory must be playing games with me, what I remember, this piece of information was mentioned in the cinema release.

If not, then I guess I must have picked up the information somewhere else, but definitely not from the comics, hehe (Hmm... on second thought, I might have picked it up from STO instead.)

Despite cooperatively developing the movies and the tie-in comics, the whole idea of the Narada being enhanced with Borg technology wasn't consistently maintained. In Countdown, Nero commanded the Narada to construct a metal tentacle to attack Worf by surprise. Then in Nero while in Klingon custody, the Narada regenerated any of its components that the Klingons tried to take apart for analysis. Then when Nero's crew broke out, it killed all Klingons aboard and then locked Nero's crew out of its computers so that it could go meet V'Ger. But when Kirk and Spock infiltrate the Narada in Star Trek 2009, no onboard systems attack them whatsoever.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I always assumed the Narada had to have been advanced by some artificial means, because...well, look at it in the film and then ask yourself, does THAT look like a simple mining vessel?

 

[laibcoms]

Despite cooperatively developing the movies and the tie-in comics, the whole idea of the Narada being enhanced with Borg technology wasn't consistently maintained. In Countdown, Nero commanded the Narada to construct a metal tentacle to attack Worf by surprise. Then in Nero while in Klingon custody, the Narada regenerated any of its components that the Klingons tried to take apart for analysis. Then when Nero's crew broke out, it killed all Klingons aboard and then locked Nero's crew out of its computers so that it could go meet V'Ger. But when Kirk and Spock infiltrate the Narada in Star Trek 2009, no onboard systems attack them whatsoever.

True, but in such a case, the live-action version trumps the tie-ins and licensed materials. At least, as far as the litverse is concerned, only what was shown in the ST11 are canon, what were left out will become stuff litverse authors can explore themselves.

Would be very interesting what "actually" happened -- relatively speaking

I always assumed the Narada had to have been advanced by some artificial means, because...well, look at it in the film and then ask yourself, does THAT look like a simple mining vessel?

Yep, when his ship was first shown in all its glory, the first thought that came to my mind he came from the 27th century or his ship was not a Romulan ship at all.

Too huge. The design is too un-Romulan. I wonder how big it is compared to the Voth ships.

 

[Christopher]

But there's nothing remotely Borg-like about the Narada's design either. Borg technology is all right angles and the occasional circle. The Narada is all complex curves and sharp points. The comics' attempt to explain it as Borg tech never made any sense to me for that reason.

Conversely, I can see an aesthetic throughline from the Valdore type to the Narada. They're both based on sweeping arcs and sharp points. Sure, they're very different in a lot of other ways, but so are a D'Deridex Warbird and a TOS-era Bird of Prey.

Size-wise, the Narada is reportedly 5 miles long, i.e. 8 kilometers. A Voth city ship is 11 kilometers long.

 

[Avro Arrow]

Nero was a huge fan of the old Earth artist H. R. Giger, and had his ship designed accordingly.

But yeah, the Narada never really made sense to me as either a civilian mining ship or as a Romulan design.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I actually think that having its origin be a civilian mining ship is justification enough for its size. Possibly. If we assume that it's intended as a platform for extraction of resources, processing of raw materials and maybe even establishment of temporary settlements, then I could see it being so large. An entire mining city in space. More like a mobile version of a Nor-class station. The advanced weaponry would need to be explained, though. I assume the original mining ship would be torn to pieces by a military vessel one-thirtieth of the size.

As for the origin of the spiky growths of villainy, I suppose the fact that's it's greenish-black and creepy was enough to lead the Countdown writers to a Borg answer, beside the fact that the Borg are a household name and of interest to casual fans (all creepy advanced technology is linked to the Borg somehow, even if it makes no sense).

Perhaps, if we instead assume that the Narada as it appears onscreen is the original configuration, then building on what Christopher says about the Valdore/Mogai and the implications of a Romulan design lineage, then it's intended to resemble a bird with its wings folded back? Are those spikes actually feathers? A roosting or diving bird, if you will, rather than a soaring, displaying bird-of-war?

 

[Christopher]

I actually think that having its origin be a civilian mining ship is justification enough for its size. Possibly. If we assume that it's intended as a platform for extraction of resources, processing of raw materials and maybe even establishment of temporary settlements, then I could see it being so large. An entire mining city in space. More like a mobile version of a Nor-class station.

Excellent point. Think of how much bigger a supertanker is than a battleship. Civilian doesn't mean small.

The advanced weaponry would need to be explained, though.

Maybe it's not weaponry by design. Maybe it's for carving up asteroids to get at the goodies inside. Dynamite was invented as an excavation tool, remember.

And maybe it only seems advanced because it's a 2380s ship that we're looking at from a 2250s perspective. It may be feeble compared to a Sovereign-class starship's phasers.

Perhaps, if we instead assume that the Narada as it appears onscreen is the original configuration, building on what Christopher says about the Valdore/Mogai, then it's intended to resemble a bird with its wings folded back?

I see no reason to question that that is the original configuration. There's not a shred of canonical evidence that the ship was altered in any way. It's probably just got a lot of bits and pieces because, as you said, it's more of a traveling industrial complex than just a space truck. It may be that, say, each of those spikes is for processing ore and separating out waste material and whatnot, and having a bunch of them operating in parallel is quicker and more efficient.

And I don't see why a civilian mining ship would be expected to follow the same design philosophy as a military vessel. I'm just saying there's enough of a hint of aesthetic commonality that I can believe they're products of the same civilization even though they come from directions as different as a jet fighter and whatever the hell this thing is.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I'm just saying there's enough of a hint of aesthetic commonality that I can believe they're products of the same civilization even though they come from directions as different as a jet fighter and whatever the hell this thing is.

I assume it's a weapon of terror used to lay waste to enemy cities, and requiring plucky heroes in giant mecha to defeat.

EDIT: I mean, it says Krupp built it. Centuries-old aristocratic dynasty, famous for steel production and arms, the slave labour thing in WWII. Also their wiki page features the term "super-Nazi", so chances that this isn't used for villainy are decreasing steeply.