Transgender Children

[hux]

Just watched Louis Theroux: Transgender Children on BBC2 which was fascinating (as most of Theroux's documentaries are)

We meet the families of transgender children. The doctors and surgeons who provide teenagers with puberty blockers and the boy/girl called Cole/Crystal who's mother indulged his/her dual gender identity but whose father did not. How can a boy who believes he is a girl even understand that there is a difference between the genders. Isn't that purely a social construct anyway. Is it wise to further encourage the distinction. On the one hand transgender people have a right to their identity but on the other, that identity only exists because of our strong social norms regarding gender

If one day in the future, gender norms are abandoned, would people still want to transition. Probably not, so is it a good thing to encourage transitioning (at any age). Shouldn't we encourage a genderless society instead

I like to think of myself as a right on, groovy liberal but when Louis met six year old Camille (born a boy) I did find myself feeling a little uncomfortable at the way her parents accepted her perspective on her gender identity so easily. Can a six year old really know who they are in that context?

?

 

[Amaris]

Yes, I believe children can know when they feel they're in the "wrong" body. We accept that little boys and little girls can have crushes on other little boys and little girls, so why can't we accept that children can know something feels wrong in their own body? It's not like a little boy just up and says "I want to be a girl now!" and doctors say "yep! Transgender!" There are medical studies that have been done that do indicate that children can realize their associated gender doesn't feel correct.

Here is one such study:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/01/150129132924.htm

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I was 6, 7 or 8, when on the playground I tried to use the "Kotterism" - "In your vagina with a set a china" towards some girls.

My poor mother was forced to attempt to explain the differences between boys & girls to me. I'm not sure I got anything from that talk.

Obviously I knew there were differences between boys & girls, but I don't think I really understood the differences, ie: what it meant to be one sex or the other.

I'm not sure someone of that age really understands enough about gender to make that determination. But with all the modern media coverage, I wonder if they're getting confusing information and simply latching on to this concept of "wrong sex/wrong body".

 

[Trekker4747]

Yes, I believe children can know when they feel they're in the "wrong" body. We accept that little boys and little girls can have crushes on other little boys and little girls, so why can't we accept that children can know something feels wrong in their own body? It's not like a little boy just up and says "I want to be a girl now!" and doctors say "yep! Transgender!" There are medical studies that have been done that do indicate that children can realize their associated gender doesn't feel correct.

Here is one such study:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/01/150129132924.htm

Exactly, and as much as we want to say "everyone is the same" there still are actually differences in brain development between males and females. But with transgenderism we can see this difference between the brain and body. It's not like they say, "Think you're a girl? Well we'll get right on that!"

It's an actual condition we can monitor and identify.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I listen to transgender adults talk about their childhood and that is why I picked "yes, of course". Because we're not in the dark here, we have many people talking about their personal experiences. Why would I get to decide something for someone else?

Puberty blockers can be reversed, if a person feels differently in adolescence/early adulthood they have choices.

Most children are not thinking about gender because they are perfectly comfortable with how they are identified by society, it's not even a topic to them. If a six year old is deeply uncomfortable about how they are identified by society doesn't that tell us something is different?

 

[thestrangequark]

Just watched Louis Theroux: Transgender Children on BBC2 which was fascinating (as most of Theroux's documentaries are)

We meet the families of transgender children. The doctors and surgeons who provide teenagers with puberty blockers and the boy/girl called Cole/Crystal who's mother indulged his/her dual gender identity but whose father did not. How can a boy who believes he is a girl even understand that there is a difference between the genders. Isn't that purely a social construct anyway. Is it wise to further encourage the distinction. On the one hand transgender people have a right to their identity but on the other, that identity only exists because of our strong social norms regarding gender

If one day in the future, gender norms are abandoned, would people still want to transition. Probably not, so is it a good thing to encourage transitioning (at any age). Shouldn't we encourage a genderless society instead

I like to think of myself as a right on, groovy liberal but when Louis met six year old Camille (born a boy) I did find myself feeling a little uncomfortable at the way her parents accepted her perspective on her gender identity so easily. Can a six year old really know who they are in that context?

?

I'm a bit too drunk to elaborate on this at the moment (Easter party Succcess). But no, gender is not a social construct. At least not entirely, or even mostly. This myth was, rather famously, disproven decades ago. One of the most famous case studies discrediting this theory, was of course, that of David Reimer, a boy raised as a girl with devastating consequences.

You seem to be open-minded and thoughtful on the issue, which is awsesome. And I wish I weren't so hammered right now. But I think you'd benefit from reading up on the subject from some quality sources. And when you think about how uncomfortable you felt watching Camille, imagine how uncomfortable Camille felt, as a little girl, when the world thought she was a boy.

 

[B.J.]

As the father of a 6 year old boy, absolutely not. Half the time he doesn't even know if he needs to go to the bathroom.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Of course we should have a genderless society. Everybody should be whatever they want to be. That includes physically changing their sex if that's what it takes.

Can a six year old know? Like everything else, it probably depends on the person. It's certainly something to be very careful about.

 

[hux]

Yes, I believe children can know when they feel they're in the "wrong" body. We accept that little boys and little girls can have crushes on other little boys and little girls, so why can't we accept that children can know something feels wrong in their own body? It's not like a little boy just up and says "I want to be a girl now!" and doctors say "yep! Transgender!"

My issue here is why would a child even conceive of themselves as being wrong. No one instinctively thinks..."I am wrong"....the feeling must be encouraged by outside factors.

It's like those women who get breast implants and say..."I did it for me, not for anybody else".....clearly this is nonsense. If she had been born on a desert island and never met another human being, would she have still wanted breast implants?

As for those who bring up dysphoria, the younger children in the show felt no such feelings of despair or unhappiness. They simply wanted to wear a dress and have long pretty hair. Would these boys still feel that they had to identify with a different gender if it was socially acceptable for boys to wear dresses. Can't boys just wear dresses and have long hair

If this was truly about their innate sense of gender then why don't these young boys simply wear trousers and have short hair but still identify as girls

Where did they get the idea that being a girl meant wearing dresses, not liking football and having long hair?

 

[cultcross]

I'm a bit too drunk to elaborate on this at the moment (Easter party Succcess). But no, gender is not a social construct. At least not entirely, or even mostly. This myth was, rather famously, disproven decades ago. One of the most famous case studies discrediting this theory, was of course, that of David Reimer, a boy raised as a girl with devastating consequences.

I think this point is key - evidence suggests that males and females genuinely are 'wired' differently - there is more to gender than a social invention. This isn't to say that patriarchy and the devaluing of the feminine is a good or a natural thing, any more than it is supporting racism to acknowledge differences in human ethnicity. But it does support the idea that, from a purely scientific perspective, you could have a 'male' brain in a 'female' body or vice versa, or indeed have someone who is mentally both or neither state. And it supports the concept that being transgender is not a fad of an over liberal society, but a long overdue acknowledgement of something that genuinely exists.

As for the second part of the question, does a 6 year old know they are in the wrong body? Potentially, I would say yes. It will vary depending on the child, hugely, but I wouldn't rule it out. It is possible of course that what they are rejecting is the societal 'role' their gender is assigned, rather than the physical gender itself - the boy who wants to play with dolls, or the girl who wants to play football does not necessarily mean they want to change gender, only they wish to have access to the other gender's traditional 'domain'. And it would be very difficult at that age to tell the difference, I think. At the very least I think it is important to listen to children who express these ideas consistently and articulately. One of the main things transgender adults remember as traumatising in their childhoods is parents who wouldn't even listen or take them seriously, or tried to force them into gender roles all the harder.

 

[Amaris]

Yes, I believe children can know when they feel they're in the "wrong" body. We accept that little boys and little girls can have crushes on other little boys and little girls, so why can't we accept that children can know something feels wrong in their own body? It's not like a little boy just up and says "I want to be a girl now!" and doctors say "yep! Transgender!"

My issue here is why would a child even conceive of themselves as being wrong. No one instinctively thinks..."I am wrong"....the feeling must be encouraged by outside factors.

It's like those women who get breast implants and say..."I did it for me, not for anybody else".....clearly this is nonsense. If she had been born on a desert island and never met another human being, would she have still wanted breast implants?

As for those who bring up dysphoria, the younger children in the show felt no such feelings of despair or unhappiness. They simply wanted to wear a dress and have long pretty hair. Would these boys still feel that they had to identify with a different gender if it was socially acceptable for boys to wear dresses. Can't boys just wear dresses and have long hair

If this was truly about their innate sense of gender then why don't these young boys simply wear trousers and have short hair but still identify as girls

Where did they get the idea that being a girl meant wearing dresses, not liking football and having long hair?

When having a penis feels wrong, and you identify more with biologically feminine characteristics, or vice versa, that is how you know. It's not about wearing dresses, that's cultural. This is a biological issue.

I knew when I was a kid that I felt funny around both boys and girls. I didn't know why, but I knew what I felt. As I grew older, I recognized it for what it was, and I hid the part of my identity that was attracted to males. It's easier to do when you're attracted to someone regardless of their gender. So even if a kid doesn't say anything to anyone else, it doesn't mean he or she doesn't know what they feel.

I'm a bit too drunk to elaborate on this at the moment (Easter party Succcess). But no, gender is not a social construct. At least not entirely, or even mostly. This myth was, rather famously, disproven decades ago. One of the most famous case studies discrediting this theory, was of course, that of David Reimer, a boy raised as a girl with devastating consequences.

I think this point is key - evidence suggests that males and females genuinely are 'wired' differently - there is more to gender than a social invention. This isn't to say that patriarchy and the devaluing of the feminine is a good or a natural thing, any more than it is supporting racism to acknowledge differences in human ethnicity. But it does support the idea that, from a purely scientific perspective, you could have a 'male' brain in a 'female' body or vice versa, or indeed have someone who is mentally both or neither state. And it supports the concept that being transgender is not a fad of an over liberal society, but a long overdue acknowledgement of something that genuinely exists.

As for the second part of the question, does a 6 year old know they are in the wrong body? Potentially, I would say yes. It will vary depending on the child, hugely, but I wouldn't rule it out. It is possible of course that what they are rejecting is the societal 'role' their gender is assigned, rather than the physical gender itself - the boy who wants to play with dolls, or the girl who wants to play football does not necessarily mean they want to change gender, only they wish to have access to the other gender's traditional 'domain'. And it would be very difficult at that age to tell the difference, I think. At the very least I think it is important to listen to children who express these ideas consistently and articulately. One of the main things transgender adults remember as traumatising in their childhoods is parents who wouldn't even listen or take them seriously, or tried to force them into gender roles all the harder.

Well stated.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I said "yes." Really, it's only going to come up if a child feels they are in the "wrong" body. If they don't feel that conflict, then they aren't really going to say anything about it. That said, my son is 7 and clearly identifies as a boy and has adopted that gender role quite readily. I sometimes have to correct him when he says certain things are "for" boys or "for" girls (such as certain colors, toys, etc.) Kids are definitely aware of this stuff.

 

[Mudd]

Is it wise to further encourage the distinction. On the one hand transgender people have a right to their identity but on the other, that identity only exists because of our strong social norms regarding gender.

That's a fair question but ultimately a useless one, IMO. Individuals experience life as they experience it, and the salient decision that others have is whether to accept or ignore their communication of their experience rather than whether to encourage or discourage.

 

[cultcross]

I've now watched the documentary that inspired the OP. Firstly, I thought it was very well done, I have a lot of respect for Louis Theroux as an interviewer and as a film-maker. He keeps a film interesting without ever sensationalising, and that is difficult to do. And when interviewing he remembers it's meant to be the other person doing the talking.

As to the subject, I think the child psychologist made an excellent point about half way through - we talk about the huge choice of letting a child transition, and the profound impact on their life and the risk of getting it wrong, but we rarely talk about the fact that doing nothing is also a big choice, will also impact the child's life, and comes with its own (far more well documented) risks - depression, anxiety, self harm, etc. Either way parents and medical professionals cannot escape making a big decision about the child's future.
My favourite people in the documentary were Camille's parents. What a lovely pair of caring yet sensible people.

 

[Sector 7]

Yes, I believe children can know when they feel they're in the "wrong" body. We accept that little boys and little girls can have crushes on other little boys and little girls, so why can't we accept that children can know something feels wrong in their own body? It's not like a little boy just up and says "I want to be a girl now!" and doctors say "yep! Transgender!"

My issue here is why would a child even conceive of themselves as being wrong. No one instinctively thinks..."I am wrong"....the feeling must be encouraged by outside factors.

It's like those women who get breast implants and say..."I did it for me, not for anybody else".....clearly this is nonsense. If she had been born on a desert island and never met another human being, would she have still wanted breast implants?

As for those who bring up dysphoria, the younger children in the show felt no such feelings of despair or unhappiness. They simply wanted to wear a dress and have long pretty hair. Would these boys still feel that they had to identify with a different gender if it was socially acceptable for boys to wear dresses. Can't boys just wear dresses and have long hair

If this was truly about their innate sense of gender then why don't these young boys simply wear trousers and have short hair but still identify as girls

Where did they get the idea that being a girl meant wearing dresses, not liking football and having long hair?

I respect your view, let me, also, offer a personal perspective from a gay man.

I knew from childhood that I liked boys more than girls. Society, however, dictated that I must like girls instead. I thought something was wrong with me; that I was demon possessed, perverted and other words I heard in my family for "those kinds of people". I never had the desire for female things like dresses, dolls, etc. I liked baseball, basketball and football. I liked to build models and play with trains... so I wasn't transgender. I JUST LIKED GUYS.

I tried hard to do the "right" things... dated a girl, kissed, asked her to the prom. But, since 7th grade my best friend and I were "doing it"... wordlessly and without shame. The pressure came from outside, so we dated girls. [In retrospect, I wonder how many girls I used wrongly. The guilt stings.] In the end, I stayed "single" (with boyfriends) "in the eyes of the church" while my best friend throughout my school years succumbed to society's pressures by eventually marrying a girl. I haven't heard from him in a few years, but he always regretted "not having the courage" to stick it out. We both hoped for a future where kids like us wouldn't have to make the choices we did.

I hope that helps the discussion from my perspective.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Kids can be more self-aware than adults at times.

 

[hux]

What I struggle with is this. We strongly inculcate everyone into primarily seeing sexuality and gender as binary states which leads to obvious problems. If this were not the case and we successfully established a society that was culturally genderless would anyone still feel they are in the incorrect body? Hard to say

But one school of thought strongly rejects the notion of gender as innate and sees it as an entirely constructed concept (and its a school of thought that has always appealed to me) but if we accept this then we would inevitably end up questioning the opinions of children who reject their own gender (since gender is a social construct and doesn't actually exist)

The other school of thought is that those people who feel that they are in the wrong body and want to change it are entirely correct and should be listened to at any age. If we accept this school of thought then we must inevitably accept that gender is innate and not a social construct

Ultimately, I was always strongly persuaded by the argument that gender is a social construct and should be deconstructed but the notion that a transgender person has an innate sense of their gender brings me into conflict with that idea. How could a child possibly know that they are the wrong gender since gender is a social invention

This is where I find other peoples certainty on the issue (from either perspective) so hard to understand. What is that certainty based on? To fully embrace the transgender community should we abandon the dream of a genderless society and accept that gender is a naturally occurring non-socially constructed innate state?

Have we already?

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Gender is biological and innate. Gender expression and gender roles, on the other hand, are constructed.

Gender dysphoria doesn't come from external sources (e.g. people telling someone they are expressing the "wrong" gender) but within.

There is no such thing as a "genderless society." What you can have is a society in which we don't pressure or force people to express their gender in any particular way. It shouldn't matter whether someone is a man or a woman, something in between, or neither. It only matters that they are a human being, and they can express who they are however they want.

 

[hux]

Gender is biological and innate. Gender expression and gender roles, on the other hand, are constructed..

There are many that disagree with that and find the notion of gender roles to be nothing more than the oppressive consequence of a socially constructed belief in innate gender. One irrevocably and inevitably influences the other. That might admittedly be a politically motivated assessment but it's one that has some intellectual weight if you ask me and one that definitely continues to interest me

Gender dysphoria doesn't come from external sources (e.g. people telling someone they are expressing the "wrong" gender) but within.

Even in children who cannot conceive of gender unless it involves specific demonstrated (constructed) concepts? None of the transgender boys in this show simply saw themselves as....."being a girl and that's all there is to it"; they saw themselves as......"being a girl and so I want to wear a dress and have long hair etc etc"

I'm not sure I believe a genuinely genderless society could ever really happen but I do wonder how it would affect transgender people and children in particular if it could/did

The poll results so far have been fairly interesting and quite positive as far as a child's innate sense is concerned

 

[RJDiogenes]

A sense of gender is a part of one's individual makeup, but gender roles and behaviors are determined by a particular society (e.g., one society may dictate that only women can have long hair, while another may not). So you have some people who feel a need to physically change themselves, and others for whom behaviors commonly associated with the opposite sex come naturally. The question is, how old must someone be before they know which is which-- and the answer undoubtedly varies from individual to individual. So, yes, gender is a social construct in that sense and we need to cultivate a genderless society for the sake of individualism, but that doesn't mean each individual won't have some intrinsic sense of being biologically male or female.