"by any other name" question

[balls]

Do you think there was any type of punishment for Rojan for his murder of Yeoman Thompson? I just finished the episode and after multiple viewings over the past 40 years, I've never been able to get past the brutal murder of Thompson. Do Kirk and the Federation require let that slide in order to help with diplomatic relations? It would seem the Federation would also benefit from the Kelvins' advanced technology.

As much as I like the comical elements of the episode, I struggle with the lack of remorse from Rojan. Maybe that's simply due to the constraints of the time in the episode. It still bothers me, though.

 

[Timo]

Several TOS episodes already established that the Federation does not believe in punishment for crimes any more.

Kirk's convenient rhetoric in "The Ultimate Computer" aside, murderers are not punished, no matter what their political background or diplomatic stance. They are healed. A few months in an asylum, undergoing therapies of various sorts, turns murderers into nice citizens, and they re-enter the society.

If the relatives of the victim are agitated by this, supposedly they, too, are put in an asylum and cured of their criminal illness.

As much as I like the comical elements of the episode, I struggle with the lack of remorse from Rojan. Maybe that's simply due to the constraints of the time in the episode. It still bothers me, though.

I don't see why Rojan should show remorse. He has been struggling to save his species and culture, and his evil enemy Kirk has vanquished him. What any good soldier should show at that stage is defiance: "I will escape from your clutches, fight you, defeat you, and then show you that our culture doesn't think criminals should be patted in the back!".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[balls]

Several TOS episodes already established that the Federation does not believe in punishment for crimes any more.

Kirk's convenient rhetoric in "The Ultimate Computer" aside, murderers are not punished, no matter what their political background or diplomatic stance. They are healed. A few months in an asylum, undergoing therapies of various sorts, turns murderers into nice citizens, and they re-enter the society.

If the relatives of the victim are agitated by this, supposedly they, too, are put in an asylum and cured of their criminal illness.

As much as I like the comical elements of the episode, I struggle with the lack of remorse from Rojan. Maybe that's simply due to the constraints of the time in the episode. It still bothers me, though.

I don't see why Rojan should show remorse. He has been struggling to save his species and culture, and his evil enemy Kirk has vanquished him. What any good soldier should show at that stage is defiance: "I will escape from your clutches, fight you, defeat you, and then show you that our culture doesn't think criminals should be patted in the back!".

Timo Saloniemi

At the end of the episode, Rojan and the other Kelvins were taking on more and more human traits. It would have been nice to see some recognition as to what he did was wrong.

Why is Kirk his evil enemy? Kirk didn't vanquish him. Kirk even tells him that he doesn't need to do this by force- that the Federation can help. Ultimately, that's the end result of the episode. Rojan even says "You would do that for us?" Dude, that's what I told you 42 minutes ago...

I understand Rojan's motives. But the great barrier was the thing that damaged his ship, not Kirk. And, I can buy that he's doing whatever he needs to do in order to complete his mission. I would have liked something along the lines of, "Captain, I am sorry for my actions that resulted in the death of your crewmember...I regret it."

 

[Warped9]

One of those things most likely dealt with offsceen between major events televised.

 

[Push The Button]

Later that day, Commander Laura Roslin and two security guards "accidently" flushed Rojan and his crew out of an airlock.

 

[Shawnster]

Punished by whom? What authority?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Thompson was a Starfleet officer, and a citizen of the Federation. Either will do.

 

[Marsden]

Do you think there was any type of punishment for Rojan for his murder of Yeoman Thompson? I just finished the episode and after multiple viewings over the past 40 years, I've never been able to get past the brutal murder of Thompson. Do Kirk and the Federation require let that slide in order to help with diplomatic relations? It would seem the Federation would also benefit from the Kelvins' advanced technology.

As much as I like the comical elements of the episode, I struggle with the lack of remorse from Rojan. Maybe that's simply due to the constraints of the time in the episode. It still bothers me, though.

It's regrettable, but stopping and making peace with the Kelvins is much more important than the loss of any one person.

 

[The Old Mixer]

^This. Extragalactic invasion averted...we'll let the murdered crewman thing slide.

 

[Melakon]

Acceptable casualties.

Of course, Hanar is still hopped up on McCoy's supercrack, so when he hears the mission is over, he starts stomping on those dodecahedrons all over the ship.

 

[Shawnster]

^ Thompson was a Starfleet officer, and a citizen of the Federation. Either will do.

Rajan was not a member of Starfleet not the Federation. Therefore, he was not subject to their authority. Likewise, he was not viewed as a criminal, enemy combatant or prisoner by the end of the episode.

Rajan was no different than some foreign operative wiki is returned to his home government after killing a soldier or US personnel.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Thompson was a Starfleet officer, and a citizen of the Federation. Either will do.

Rajan was not a member of Starfleet not the Federation. Therefore, he was not subject to their authority.

Nonsense. If a person travels to another country and kills someone there, they can still be prosecuted for murder. After Rojan killed Thompson, he could have still been sent to a Federation penal colony if they had chosen to do so. His status as an 'alien' is irrelevant.

Even if the Kelvan Empire could be said to be in a state of war with the Federation at that time, Thompson's death was still murder, since she was a prisoner. There does exist a form of "interstellar law", as ST VI showed; surely the treatment of prisoners, which Thompson was, would fall within that law.

About the only thing I can think of is that since Rojan had no experience with emotions, he didn't yet know HOW to feel remorse. He may have had no idea what it was.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

Of course, Hanar is still hopped up on McCoy's supercrack, so when he hears the mission is over, he starts stomping on those dodecahedrons all over the ship.

And I thought Timo was evil!

 

[Timo]

There does exist a form of "interstellar law", as ST VI showed; surely the treatment of prisoners, which Thompson was, would fall within that law.

But that is UFP interstellar law, not Kelvan. While Klingons may agree to some of the silly ideas the Feds have about the treatment of prisoners (even though they really shouldn't!), there's no reason why the Kelvans would. And there is no known higher authority to force Kelvans and Feds to obey the same set of rules, nor any history (or future) of inescapable coexistence that would coerce the two sides to accept common rules.

The legalistic result: UFP prosecutes Rojan for murder, Kelva denounces that and prosecutes UFP for unlawful arrest and a host of other crimes relating to the ill treatment of Rojan. Whether Kelva also has the power or will to nuke the UFP kangaroo court (supposedly no sooner than 300 years after the fact, but anyway) is debatable, as their government may have found better ideas for survival than the conquest of Milky Way in the meantime. But in theory at least, Rojan himself could terminate the human race for their arrogance, with a few billion pushes of his handy little button.

It's true that Rojan is growing soft. But that the episode falls short of having him become fully human and apologize is IMHO a very good thing, because otherwise this would be but another example of Trek imperialism where entire cultures are twisted and turned into the human mold before they can be redeemed.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MacLeod]

^ Thompson was a Starfleet officer, and a citizen of the Federation. Either will do.

Rajan was not a member of Starfleet not the Federation. Therefore, he was not subject to their authority. Likewise, he was not viewed as a criminal, enemy combatant or prisoner by the end of the episode.

Rajan was no different than some foreign operative wiki is returned to his home government after killing a soldier or US personnel.

Well they were within Federation territory and as such subject to Federation Law.

When you visit another country you are subject to their laws, it is up to the local authorities to decide upon what course of action to take should you break any laws.

 

[Warped9]

Were they in UFP territory? The Enterprise could be exploring deep space--one of the show's core elements--and be well beyond UFP territory.

 

[Timo]

The Kelvans came from the rim barrier in a "lifecraft", supposedly a vessel they could not use or modify for use in an intergalactic trip. One is tempted to speculate its range would not have sufficed for spanning the gap between the mysterious barrier and UFP proper.

That is, it never seems as if the UFP really extends all the way to that barrier. But there are human assets pretty darn close to it, such as the Delta Vega station... Perhaps the UFP has taken care to send such robotic precursors to all parts of the galaxy, so that they have jurisdiction everywhere, at least as per their own rules!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marsden]

Even if the Kelvan Empire could be said to be in a state of war with the Federation at that time, Thompson's death was still murder, since she was a prisoner. There does exist a form of "interstellar law", as ST VI showed; surely the treatment of prisoners, which Thompson was, would fall within that law.

When you visit another country you are subject to their laws, it is up to the local authorities to decide upon what course of action to take should you break any laws.

I wonder if anyone as alien as the Kelvin are have a concept of that. Not everyone respects the rights of prisoners, but maybe they don't even have the concept of special rights for prisoners of war.

 

[Timo]

The issue of prisoners is one of those where we might expect pretty much similar points of view from everybody, be they humans or flying octopi. On one hand, individuals want to be free; on the other tentacle, it's often so darn useful to take others prisoner instead of, say, killing them. So one has to dance the "do unto others" dance somehow, and the options are pretty much "do unto others before they get around to doing it unto you, and do it HARD" and "play nice so the others just possibly won't take revenge".

The choice won't automatically go for the latter, though, not even in situations of prolonged conflict. There are real-world examples to quote, mainly from bygone eras of slow communications and great relative distances, but those are rather apt for Trek, too. And the Trek cases are well known in their own right.

Klingons hate being captured (they are individuals, after all), and the Klingon society detests the idea of Klingons getting captured (any warrior culture would require its members to avoid capture till the very last and probably beyond, even when this goes against the interests of the individual). But Klingons still take prisoners, and supposedly treat them with utter contempt, both because that's what the warrior society needs (showing respect might give Klingons ideas about whether to allow themselves to be taken prisoner after all) and because the Klingon lifestyle isn't a good springboard for thinking that playing nice would make others play nice.

Kelvans appear equally arrogant and equally likely to control their citizens through ideologies of self-sacrifice. Furthermore, they have no need for playing nice, as they can always simply triumph over their opponents - that's what Rojan says they have done until then (and whether it's misleading propaganda or not is a question we need to ask with the similar Dominion claims, but it can't be a completely empty boast, since the vast Dominion and the galaxy-wide Kelvan empire do exist).

The starting point thus isn't good for humane treatment of prisoners...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Warped9]

The episode made a point of showing that human sensibilities were quite alien and unknown to the Kelvans. Rojan crushed Yeoman Tomkins with as little thought as us stepping on an insect crossing our kitchen floor.