I still say the audience did not care about that, and would have been a false danger, when the entire scene--like the episode was about the Kirk/Flint struggle.
Yes--entertaining, which is the point some miss while trying to damn the episode.
Fix an episode---Requiem for Methuselah
- Thread starter Grant
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I still say the audience did not care about that, and would have been a false danger, when the entire scene--like the episode was about the Kirk/Flint struggle.
Yes--entertaining, which is the point some miss while trying to damn the episode.
Rayna, a lady-bot, dying because her lady feelings got the better of her is pretty much offensively bad and shouldn't have ever been the focal point of an episode. Really awful that it was the center of TNG's The Offspring as well. Melinda Snodgrass is right to hate that episode. You would never be able to believe a male character would die of fee-fees, robot or otherwise. You'd laugh your ass off.
Actually having a male android suffer similar consequences could be an interesting playing against type. It could certainly underline that men can have similar feelings and also feel torn by them.
While certainly nothing like Vulcans human men are often taught from early age to suppress or mask their feelings. Rather than express feelings out in the open they can turn them inward and express them in other forms of behaviour with some of those being destructive.
While certainly nothing like Vulcans human men are often taught from early age to suppress or mask their feelings. Rather than express feelings out in the open they can turn them inward and express them in other forms of behaviour with some of those being destructive.
Personally I think that's doing "The Offspring" a bit of a disservice, though I kind of see where you're coming from as well.
As for this episode...I still feel Edith Keeler was the closest Kirk had to a True Love other than the Big E in the course of the series (certainly his feelings for her seemed to develop a bit more organically), and notably he never seemed to need help getting over that one, so the meld at the end of this episode kind of bothers me. Though if it was clear that Kirk's feelings had been induced to some degree then I might be more understanding of the situation. Either way, it kind of makes Kirk a weaker character, though I suppose whether weakening him in this manner is actually a bad thing is best left as an exercise for the viewer.
As for this episode...I still feel Edith Keeler was the closest Kirk had to a True Love other than the Big E in the course of the series (certainly his feelings for her seemed to develop a bit more organically), and notably he never seemed to need help getting over that one, so the meld at the end of this episode kind of bothers me. Though if it was clear that Kirk's feelings had been induced to some degree then I might be more understanding of the situation. Either way, it kind of makes Kirk a weaker character, though I suppose whether weakening him in this manner is actually a bad thing is best left as an exercise for the viewer.
Well, you can interpret it that way... but there's other ways as well. I don't see it as you do.
I see it as the chaos of conflicting emotion caused a neural breakdown. There's no gender association involved. I chalk it up to Flint having been a bit heavy on the cerebral side didn't account for the complexities of unanticipated emotion and didn't program enough safety subroutines to handle it. Rayna couldn't manage what she was experiencing, overloaded, and shorted out. However... "dead" is just utterly ridiculous where computers are concerned. We all know that. Parts can be replaced. But even in modern Trek incarnations we see flaws... like backing up Data's program. They treated the "data" of data like a fixed object, instead of something that could be backed up multiple times (and NEVER lost). What's a "soul" if an entire consciousness can be captured in a positronic memory chip, reloaded at any time back into a machine, albeit Data's body, Rayna's body, or a starship computer bank?
I agree with you here completely. If Sybok had scanned Kirk Edith would have been what popped up. And it's the one pain that he didn't need. But Rayna, that was his fault. He needed to learn from that and Spock took it away.
Gary7 said:
I think that's naive. Also impossible to argue without getting into reams of obvious historical examples you should know already, so we'll have to just disagree.
I'm not sure it needs fixing as it is one of the few third season episodes that I really enjoy watching (as pointed out... great music and the 33 inch Enterprise are the hi-lights).
That being said, this episode shows the true potential of the TV series to go further than the movie series can.
Could this premise be used in a Trek film today? Yes and no.
The current Trek property is tied to a fireworks style of film making that wouldn't take a risk on an intelligent story that might fail on a large audience (to make the most money, Trek is now aimed at the least common denominator of the movie going public). But we may actually have a current film that plays on the elements in Requiem for Methuselah... Ex Machina.
Heck, the visual styles of both this film and the two recent Trek movies are similar enough that one could edit together a Star Trek III: Requiem for Methuselah trailer by combining some of their elements.
If only the current holders of power in the Trek franchise were willing to boldly go where Trek has gone before.
That being said, this episode shows the true potential of the TV series to go further than the movie series can.
Could this premise be used in a Trek film today? Yes and no.
The current Trek property is tied to a fireworks style of film making that wouldn't take a risk on an intelligent story that might fail on a large audience (to make the most money, Trek is now aimed at the least common denominator of the movie going public). But we may actually have a current film that plays on the elements in Requiem for Methuselah... Ex Machina.
Heck, the visual styles of both this film and the two recent Trek movies are similar enough that one could edit together a Star Trek III: Requiem for Methuselah trailer by combining some of their elements.
If only the current holders of power in the Trek franchise were willing to boldly go where Trek has gone before.
Truth....this episode shows the true potential of the TV series to go further than the movie series can.
Could this premise be used in a Trek film today? Yes and no.
The current Trek property is tied to a fireworks style of film making that wouldn't take a risk on an intelligent story that might fail on a large audience (to make the most money, Trek is now aimed at the least common denominator of the movie going public).
If only the current holders of power in the Trek franchise were willing to boldly go where Trek has gone before.
Rayna was an android. She wasn't truly female, only a visual facsimile thereof. She didn't produce estrogen or have veins in which it would coarse. In any case, I was talking about the overload of handling strong emotions for the first time. It didn't require a representation of gender in which to happen. But, you can interpret it the other way if you wish, that it was a chauvinistic representation.
Also, this episode shows who is the real power in the center chair.
Spock has absolute control and Kirk is his puppet. Kirk just thinks he's dashing and intuitive, it's all Spock running things from behind the scenes and "making a suggestion" from over there at the science station. Mr. "I don't have asperations of command" Spock. No wonder Kirk's career went into the shitter, it wasn't because he became and Admiral, it was because he left Spock. Then in TMP, Kirk doesn't know what to do, Spock shows up and bingo, old Kirk is back.
Mirror Spock and Prime Spock aren't that different, are they.
Spock has absolute control and Kirk is his puppet. Kirk just thinks he's dashing and intuitive, it's all Spock running things from behind the scenes and "making a suggestion" from over there at the science station. Mr. "I don't have asperations of command" Spock. No wonder Kirk's career went into the shitter, it wasn't because he became and Admiral, it was because he left Spock. Then in TMP, Kirk doesn't know what to do, Spock shows up and bingo, old Kirk is back.
Mirror Spock and Prime Spock aren't that different, are they.
This kind of talk is a form of humor and a form of retconning. I do it myself because Kirk is big enough to take it. But in TOS, Kirk was the hero. In TMP, the writers' creative decision to take him down a peg was a terrible mistake, but TMP is not TOS.
Yes, Zapp, I was joking. I don't pretend it was actually funny, just an attempt.
And I really didn't like how they started TMP. I know it's too late but I would have liked them just starting on the bridge of the new Enterprise, Kirk in center, Spock at the science station and Scotty could say the redesigned engines are working fine and then they get the call to intercept V'ger.
And I really didn't like how they started TMP. I know it's too late but I would have liked them just starting on the bridge of the new Enterprise, Kirk in center, Spock at the science station and Scotty could say the redesigned engines are working fine and then they get the call to intercept V'ger.
Yes, but I don't think anybody had enough confidence in the V'ger story to let it carry the whole movie. They felt the need to fill out the plot with other stuff, and in came Kirk's crisis of competence.
Oh, yeah, this was a MOTION PICTURE. And it had been awhile since we had seen them, both in and out of universe. I like the out-of-water dickish Kirk finding his way back once he's back in the center seat with Spocko and McCoy standing on his shoulders. Sucks for Decker a BIT, but then he becomes MoonChild or whatever, so all's well.
I think today's feminists are too quick to interpret things through the lens of gender. Men famously let their romantic feelings get the better of them, and always have.
Goethe's novel The Sorrows of Young Werther set off a wave of romantic suicides by love-sick young men. Their systems crashed, you might say, when the agonies of love destroyed them. There's nothing specifically feminine about it, and no need for feminists to feel insulted by a story like "Requiem for Methuselah."
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