Plot hole in Into Darkness? Was Admiral Marcus... (Minor spoilers)

[Kirk the Jerk]

Was Admiral Marcus in the room when Khan started firing on Starfleet command? I honestly cannot remember. I remember his conversation with Kirk after Admiral Pike had been killed, but my question is, if he was in the room..

How did Khan expect to get his 'crew' back if he had accidentally on purpose killed Admiral Marcus? There'd have been no real way of getting them back as he was counting on a ship to come and arrest him or try to kill him on sight with the torpedoes. Which led to the Enterprise being stranded in Klingon space (something Marcus rigged), which if the Enterprise had been destroyed by Klingons his crew would have died anyway. It was a huge risk IMO for someone with supreme intelligence.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Khan thought his crew was already dead when he attacked HQ, that's why he did it ("I had every reason to suspect Marcus had killed every single one of the people I hold most dear. So I responded in kind.") It was only when he heard Sulu's threat about the long range torpedoes locked on his position that he realized they were still alive and had been moved onto the Enterprise.

Later, when he thinks Spock blew his crew to bits in he Vengeance cargo bay, he crashes the ship into San Francisco.

 

[Cyke101]

Was Admiral Marcus in the room when Khan started firing on Starfleet command? I honestly cannot remember. I remember his conversation with Kirk after Admiral Pike had been killed, but my question is, if he was in the room..

Marcus was indeed in the room during the attack. There's a clear shot of Marcus alone running behind a pillar to dodge the fire (implying that he really was the main target), and then hightailed it out of there.

My question is: with guns that big and with Khan's abilities, how did he miss Marcus? "I laugh at the superior intellect."

 

[F. King Daniel]

I don't think he was trying to kill Marcus, he was hurting what's important to him.

 

[Gojira]

I agree. People bent on destruction are not rational and Khan was trying to kill everyone he could, I do not think he was after one person.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

I don't think he was trying to kill Marcus, he was hurting what's important to him.

That really doesn't make sense, though. Marcus' key staff may be strategically important, but they aren't "family." He might shed a small tear... but knowing what we know about him, he'd probably just take the golden opportunity handpick a few Captains or Commodres as his new "cabinet" who are amenable to his cause of war. In fact, Khan did him a favour by knocking off the morally-solid people like Pike.

Furthermore, by defecting to Qo'nos space he further did Marcus a great service by implicating the Klingons in an outright attack on Starfleet. I fail to see how any of this hurt Marcus.

 

[Kirk the Jerk]

I agree. People bent on destruction are not rational and Khan was trying to kill everyone he could, I do not think he was after one person.

He pretty much saved Kirk n co from the Klingons though, why not just kill everyone and attack the Enterprise himself with one of their D4 Attack Cruisers/or Birds of Prey. He did already know that they had the Torpedoes when Sulu threatened him as mentioned before, just not how many.

 

[CorporalClegg]

He pretty much saved Kirk n co from the Klingons though, why not just kill everyone and attack the Enterprise himself with one of their D4 Attack Cruisers/or Birds of Prey. He did already know that they had the Torpedoes when Sulu threatened him as mentioned before, just not how many.

Nor was he 100% certain the augments were in them until Kirk confirmed it. He couldn't kill Kirk or Marcus until he was absolutely positive he would be able to save his people. He didn't act on emotion or assumption like, say, his counterpart.

 

[publiusr]

Marcus and Khan are actually quite alike in many ways, in thinking Pine's Kirk naive

 

[Arianna]

I hadn't seen STID in months and months then watched it today.

Do you guys think Marcus knew Khan would attack Star Fleet top brass like Pike, and therefore provoked Khan by telling him he killed his people knowing he would attack back?

Marcus wanted to get rid of certain Star Fleet senior staff so wasn't Khan a handy assassin? Plus it eventually led to a potential war that Marcus wanted?

I think Marcus knew there was a good chance that Khan might attack that meeting.

 

[Mudd]

No, Marcus didn't know. Harrison had gone rogue. It was Harrison's intention to kill Marcus because Harrison assumed his crew was dead.

 

[Timo]

We see on Qo'noS that Khan is a fantastic marksman with heavy weaponry. He could have killed Pike, winged Kirk and given Marcus but a new tattoo if he so wanted! And if he wanted Marcus dead, Marcus would be dead. Just lob a bomb in there, rather than toy with machine-gun fire!

I'm personally convinced that the attack on the meeting was planned by Khan and Marcus together, Godfather III style. But even if it were Khan's own doing only, there's little or no danger he would have jeopardized anything by firing into that room. He could easily have avoided killing Marcus - but he could also have killed Marcus for all he cared, assuming he thought that such an action would lead into his torpedoes being loaded aboard a starship he could then hijack.

His best bet was probably what actually transpired: Marcus survives, Kirk survives, and Pike dies, and the villain uses the schmuck to launch a mission to "avenge" the veteran that in fact is intended to launch the war the villain covets - and by a means foreseen by the other villain, who is counting on that very mission being launched.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I don't think he was trying to kill Marcus, he was hurting what's important to him.

The only person important to Marcus IS Marcus.

(And maybe Carol, although his treatment of her when she's on the Vengeance calls this into doubt)

 

[King Bob!]

I don't think he was trying to kill Marcus, he was hurting what's important to him.

The only person important to Marcus IS Marcus.

(And maybe Carol, although his treatment of her when she's on the Vengeance calls this into doubt)

It does make one wonder what exactly Khan's plan was? If his people are dead and he succeeded in killing Marcus, what was the plan? Marcus was one of the few people to even know about the existence of Khan.

Khan punched a one-way ticket to Kronos. But what was the plan from there?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Take over Kronos himself? If Khan managed to get himself into a meeting of the High Council, there's no telling what he might have done.

 

[King Bob!]

^ Take over Kronos himself? If Khan managed to get himself into a meeting of the High Council, there's no telling what he might have done.

If 80 supermen couldn't hang onto control of Earth, I doubt one would be able to take over the Klingon Empire.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

^ Take over Kronos himself? If Khan managed to get himself into a meeting of the High Council, there's no telling what he might have done.

If 80 supermen couldn't hang onto control of Earth, I doubt one would be able to take over the Klingon Empire.

Yous seriously over estimate the Klingon Empire.

Lets not forget were are talking about a species of warriors who Kira smacked the crap out of while bleeding out from a nasty stab wound.

 

[Timo]

We only have Khan's own word he thought his people were dead. That's when he's trying to jerk tears out of Kirk, so that it sort of deflects the attention from all the evil things Khan did in order to bring matters to this point where the torpedoes are on the same ship with him...

Getting the torps there was an extremely complicated chain of events where Khan had to manipulate several people into unknowingly working for him when they in fact wanted to work against him. IMHO the easiest (and perhaps only) way to make that work is to write out the entire dastardly plan in detail, then sell that plan to Marcus so that he helps Khan execute it. Marcus would readily buy, as the plan serves his interests as well: it (almost?) gets the war started. Khan would only need to tell a few small lies - and one of those would be "I acted simply out of grief - I didn't coldly calculate that my mass murders would bring my crew back to me, oh no, I certainly didn't".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Take over Kronos himself? If Khan managed to get himself into a meeting of the High Council, there's no telling what he might have done.

If 80 supermen couldn't hang onto control of Earth, I doubt one would be able to take over the Klingon Empire.

Without any other Augments to fight against him, Khan would have a much easier time of it.

 

[Timo]

Fair enough. But Khan was supposedly the last supertyrant to be ousted - so it's a bit unlikely he was ousted by his peers!

Yet "Space Seed" does suggest that a tiny handful of the supermen "took over" a number of countries. Doesn't sound like military conquest - more like a series of palace coups of some sort, or rigged elections. Or even clean ones... If that worked in the violent and paranoid 1990s, why not in the complacent 2260s?

Timo Saloniemi