I, Borg is really bad
- Thread starter AntonyF
- Start date
Well that sentence clears it all up. Thanks for the clarification.
Star Trek uses "sentience" largely incorrectly when there's another word that means what they want.
Sentience is, essentially, a being's ability to think and act on its own rather than by pure instinct. All mammals are sentient. All insects are not. Your dog is sentient. He uses his instincts to operate in the world, sure, because he has no other ability to think or act with but he's still able to "make decisions."
He still has emotions, feelings and a degree of intelligence. He can learn and adapt.
An insect, however, is essentially a robot. It just acts and behaves and this grows more and more the case as we get into lower and lower forms of animal life. Sponges, for example, are animals, probably the lowest form, yet they're by no means at all sentient.
*Sapience* is more what Trek is looking for when they say "sentience." Sapience is something else entirely and very, very few forms of life on Earth demonstrate grasping this. Humans, obviously, are sapient. Dolphins and many apes also display sapience.
Sapience is a beings ability to learn, think in the abstract, know they're an individual, and have a meta "quality" that goes beyond what is easy to understand. Think of all of the vast difference between what you are and what your pet is as a being and that's the difference between sentience and sapience.
In "Schisms" Data gives his "Ode to Spot" where he claims Spot is not sentient. Which says a lot about how the people in Trek's time looks at animals considering we see how much they value sentience. But this suggests, hugely, that Spot isn't considered intelligent or to have any "rights" as a living creature. Something he'd/she'd be granted in our society since our society recognizes Spot is a creature of some degree of feeling and intelligence.
Yes, as Data's poem suggests, Spot isn't capable of "valuing Data as a friend" nor does it know the concept of such a thing but it's likely -if Spot behaves around Data as it would a human owner- Spot sees Data as, at least, an "equal" in "cares" for Data in some manner. In our own time we hear stories all of the time of pets doing incredible things for their owners because most pets see their owners as "leaders of the pack" -this is especially the case when it comes to dogs. Doing this requires sentience because it means on some level, however small, the animal is "thinking."
Thinking is sentience.
Obviously not. In the end the crew thought Hugh's new sense of "individuality" would behave as the virus and we know from "Descent" that The Borg saw the problem Hugh was creating and simply removed him and the "infected" drones and set them off on their own.
We could liken this to you getting a really bad infection, like the flesh-eating bacteria, on a limb and the doctor cutting it off before it gets too bad to do anything about.
The malicious image they wanted to use likely would have been treated the same way. They would have just gotten rid of the infected drones to allow the rest of the species to survive.
I'm afraid that this time you've got me. First Contact implied that? How? Can you reference a specific part of the film?
You'd think that there would be a procedure for replacing a queen that managed to get herself destroyed or whatever. Perhaps that's the significance of the line from "Endgame": "Sphere six three four. They can still hear my thoughts." Sounds like sections of the collective might have been getting firewalled from each other automatically to limit the spread of the pathogen.
Which brings us back to "I, Borg." I never found the premise that the Borg would have been completely destroyed by the computer virus to be a believable one. Firewalling would be one obvious way to limit the spread. Certainly, in retrospect, given First Contact, we know that Data's knowledge of the collective isn't complete. Despite having accessed and analyzed the Borg command structure in BOBW, Data seems completely ignorant that there even is a queen at all. The existence of the queen would be pretty clearly something that didn't make it into Picard's reports also. Ergo, the crew's belief in total destruction was based on—big shock—incomplete information.
This isn't meant to absolve the crew in the event that they had elected to go ahead with infecting Hugh. On the contrary, it would be completely plausible for the crew to believe that complete and utter destruction of the Borg was a possibility. But, I think it's more plausible that something less than total destruction of the entire collective would have been the expected outcome.
At the climax when the Borg Queen is being melted by the coolant, all the Borg in their alcoves fall/stumble over dead, it's pretty weird:
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnN-SR_2ovA[/yt]
That's another reason the concept of the Borg Queen was a pretty stupid idea. She's the one who brings order into the chaos, the central data core, all shall love her and despair yadda yadda yadda. When she dies everything Borg related just collapses....yet we have seen at least 2 Borg Queens die and yet the Borg are still around (possibly) kinda makes her seem a lot less important than FC tried to make her out to be.
She really makes no sense in relation to the Borg.
She really makes no sense in relation to the Borg.
Isn't it a temporal paradox anyway? Captain Janeway will never become the Admiral Janeway that returns to the past to save them.
I sure men in their 30s and 40s, as well as any technical consultants they may have, knew about computer viruses. It's not like in 1992 computers were strange devices of myth. People had a strong understanding of them and used them on something of a daily basis. Not nearly on the level we use them now, obviously, but it's 1992, not 1972 or even 1982.
It's likely when part of the larger collective -the entire Borg species- the Borg do have a system in order to replace the queen should she be killed or removed from the collective. But in the case of First Contact the only Borg around where those on the Enterprise and there was only one candidate to be queen. Apparently the queen has a special quality the other drones do not have, likely that the queen still had her own separate intelligence and awareness.
So had the Borg made their beacon to communicate with the Borg around in the 21st century killing the queen wouldn't have worked. Because now it's possible to replace her by assigning these drones a new queen somewhere in the DQ.
Perhaps the Temporal Integrity Commission had to clean up that mess as well...
That's certainly what "First Contact" suggests would happen to the Borg without the queen, but how is the Borg Queen dying any different to when a drone becomes severed from the hive mind any other time? The Borg who were disconnected from the Collective like "Hugh", Seven of Nine, and even Locutus weren't affected like those on the Enterprise? Shouldn't they have all died if they weren't connected anymore?
In the case of "Hugh" he certainly wasn't any more imporatant than the drones on the Enterprise-E, and even Voyager showed the members of Seven of Nine's unimatrix severed from the hive mind at one point, well before she became important to their plans for Voyager.
Or were those drones deaths merely spite by the Borg Queen because they were mostly made up of Picard's crew, if she can't have them then no one will?
Killing the queen in First Contact was the climactic beat of the story, so it was time for everything to 'splode. The fact that the few drones around her 'sploded when she died really says nothing about what might happen to the entire collective were the queen suddenly killed.
Plus, this was basically a jury-rigged mini-collective formed under emergency conditions. Given the (to them) limited resources at hand, I'd say that not all Borg protocols were represented by it. The queen obviously didn't expect that scenario; the Borg modus operandi is generally to be blindly unprepared for the unexpected, on the theory that they will adapt in time to cope with unexpected threats. Well, this time, they didn't.
Plus, this was basically a jury-rigged mini-collective formed under emergency conditions. Given the (to them) limited resources at hand, I'd say that not all Borg protocols were represented by it. The queen obviously didn't expect that scenario; the Borg modus operandi is generally to be blindly unprepared for the unexpected, on the theory that they will adapt in time to cope with unexpected threats. Well, this time, they didn't.
In the case of FC, that Borg Queen likely was the one holding that mini Collective together. Part of their objective was to build a beacon in order to establish contact with the Borg in the Delta Quadrant, which means they were essentially cut off from all the other Borg.
Perhaps there are normally enough redundancies in the Collective to prevent the death of the Queen; if one Queen body dies, another is automatically activated without interruption. However, since they had no contact with the other Borg in FC, the death of that particular Queen did in fact result in the death of those Borg. She was the only thing holding them together.
Perhaps there are normally enough redundancies in the Collective to prevent the death of the Queen; if one Queen body dies, another is automatically activated without interruption. However, since they had no contact with the other Borg in FC, the death of that particular Queen did in fact result in the death of those Borg. She was the only thing holding them together.
The story line from TNG era borg was that if their link to the collective was severed they self destructed.
In the first story some borg beams back on the Enterprise to remove the linkages from the dead drones which then self destructed.
In BOBW, Crusher had to find a way of removing Picard's link without him turning to ash.
For 7 of 9, Chatokatay was involved using a Borg neurotransmitter or something to communicate with her in order to sever the link.
Can't remember what stopped Hugh from self destructing - perhaps there was enough of the Borg cube left so his link wasn't lost.
In the TNG novel Vendetta, a fortutiously thrown knife damaged the linkage the collective of borg.
In First Contact, the collective linkages could have all run through the Queen so when she went they would have all died (well self destructed).
For those in Engineering it woldn't have mattered - the coolant gas would have killed them though going back to Q Who? they should have still turned to ash as we've send dead borg self destruct.
Just to point out that is factually inaccurate. While we aren't shown visual evidence that the Borg assimilate (and not just special cases like Jean-Luc). We have plenty of dialogue indicting it.
In Best of Both Worlds II, Locutus says something to the effect of "Worf, Klingon Species, a warrior race, you TOO will be assimilated." Worf argues, Locates says something like "Why do you resist we wish to raise quality of life for all species" Worf, "I like my species the way it is". Locates "A Narrow vision, you will be assimilated by the Borg", turns to rest of sickbay "You will all be assimilated by the Borg".
Pretty clear this predates I, Borg and states in pretty specific terms that the Borg do assimilated others, and races.
Locutus also states how he isn't going to harm them, he is going to control cube to Earth for its surrender.
Not destruction, like Q-Who. Surrender. In fact with the exception of Q-Who the Borg only try to to destroy when they meet resistance.
Technically, he says "You will become one with the Borg." He does not use the word assimilated.
I'm honestly not sure that anybody uses the word "assimilated" until the Borg Queen in FC.
Data: "Forgive me, but the Borg do not evolve. They conquer."
Borg Queen: "By assimilating other beings into our collective, we are bringing them closer to perfection."
From their own bizarre perspective, the Borg actually think they're helping.
Technically, he says "You will become one with the Borg." He does not use the word assimilated.
I'm honestly not sure that anybody uses the word "assimilated" until the Borg Queen in FC.
Data: "Forgive me, but the Borg do not evolve. They conquer."
Borg Queen: "By assimilating other beings into our collective, we are bringing them closer to perfection."
From their own bizarre perspective, the Borg actually think they're helping.
Hugh does when he is still 3 of 5, right after Geordi first feeds him.
Picard to Hugh "This Culture will be assimilated"
"All will be assimilated"
Hugh: "Must Geordi be assimilated?" "He would rather die then be assimilated"
Picard: "You will asset us in assimilated this vessel"
And Locutus comes close in Best of both Worlds II
"There are no terms. You will disarm all your weapons and escort us to sector zero, zero, one.
Where we will begin assimilating your culture and techno - "
Ends when Riker cuts audio feed.
So thanks, as that dialogue also helps make my original point that there is plenty verbal evidence that the Borg assimilate beings, long before either I, Borg or First Contact where we see it occur.
Last edited:
As for a couple other examples of things that have been as series (in some cases even more serious) threats to the Federation and how Starlet at large , and by extension the casts didn't seek out racial extermination.
We have 1 the single biggest threat to the Federation, Q. While not a per say evil being. It is still threaten twice to exterminate the entire Federation, we know he kills, the crew knows this. The crew also knows he is quite able to with literally the star of his fingers (well technically just thinking) utterly remove the Federation from existence. Yet once he is utterly human, Picard and crew defend him. They don't pursue charging him for his actions, again he has killed at least one member of the Enterprise crew.
We have Species 8479, a race that views all beings inner universe as something to be destroyed. Yet we see Janeway and crew, not seek widespread destruction, but dialogue with a race that sought only our annihilation.
We have the Dominion. A group of races that has caused more death to the Federation then everything Starlet will ever learn from the Borg (we still have no idea how much Picard knows from his experience in the hive mind. Clearly it wasn't full access). Yet when covert members of the Federation try to commit genocide, Deep Space Nine's crew reverses their actions. And frankly the Jem'Hadar were DS9 version of the Borg. A race that wouldn't stop, and would go until the last to destroy.
We saw with the Crystalline Entity that Picard seems to always seek understanding instead of destruction, even when all he knows of a creature is destruction. We have seen how he responded to the being who did destroy an entire species, even if it was a violent one.
Needless to say I love I'Borg. Its in my personal top ten of TNG episodes.
And Picard's choices, either you agree with them are not seem to be consistent with 24th century starlet, by and large, not to mention the primary leaders and characters from the three trek's set in this time period.
People say well it humanizes the Borg, which defeats the whole purpose of it's coolness from Q-who. And on that issue there is some merit, but frankly the bulk of that criticism belong's to Best of Both Worlds, as we are far more attached to Jean Luc then some previously never seen being.
Again since Best of Both Worlds already establishes that the Borg seek to assimilate full cultures, and not just technology, we get the humanizes impact from seeing Picard, and from seeing it brought up in great material like Family (another episode I love). The only difference is we can perhaps assume that 3 of 5, was one of the Borg who never had a previously developed personality (like one of the infants shown in Q-Who). So we saw with BoBW that not only how a being who is assimilate is impacted and can regain his or her individuality, that even a life long member of the collective can also grow to be an individual.
We have 1 the single biggest threat to the Federation, Q. While not a per say evil being. It is still threaten twice to exterminate the entire Federation, we know he kills, the crew knows this. The crew also knows he is quite able to with literally the star of his fingers (well technically just thinking) utterly remove the Federation from existence. Yet once he is utterly human, Picard and crew defend him. They don't pursue charging him for his actions, again he has killed at least one member of the Enterprise crew.
We have Species 8479, a race that views all beings inner universe as something to be destroyed. Yet we see Janeway and crew, not seek widespread destruction, but dialogue with a race that sought only our annihilation.
We have the Dominion. A group of races that has caused more death to the Federation then everything Starlet will ever learn from the Borg (we still have no idea how much Picard knows from his experience in the hive mind. Clearly it wasn't full access). Yet when covert members of the Federation try to commit genocide, Deep Space Nine's crew reverses their actions. And frankly the Jem'Hadar were DS9 version of the Borg. A race that wouldn't stop, and would go until the last to destroy.
We saw with the Crystalline Entity that Picard seems to always seek understanding instead of destruction, even when all he knows of a creature is destruction. We have seen how he responded to the being who did destroy an entire species, even if it was a violent one.
Needless to say I love I'Borg. Its in my personal top ten of TNG episodes.
And Picard's choices, either you agree with them are not seem to be consistent with 24th century starlet, by and large, not to mention the primary leaders and characters from the three trek's set in this time period.
People say well it humanizes the Borg, which defeats the whole purpose of it's coolness from Q-who. And on that issue there is some merit, but frankly the bulk of that criticism belong's to Best of Both Worlds, as we are far more attached to Jean Luc then some previously never seen being.
Again since Best of Both Worlds already establishes that the Borg seek to assimilate full cultures, and not just technology, we get the humanizes impact from seeing Picard, and from seeing it brought up in great material like Family (another episode I love). The only difference is we can perhaps assume that 3 of 5, was one of the Borg who never had a previously developed personality (like one of the infants shown in Q-Who). So we saw with BoBW that not only how a being who is assimilate is impacted and can regain his or her individuality, that even a life long member of the collective can also grow to be an individual.
Similar threads
