The Walking Dead Season 5
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Knowing that just makes me like it more. I hated Lost.
So what's wrong with some non-twisty straight-forward storytelling?
When exactly did we see Pete behave abusively?
Jessie does not come across to me as a victim of abuse whatsoever. She's always extremely calm and confident, never seems like she's scared or ashamed of something, and she openly invites Rick's advances. She doesn't strike me as a person who's living in fear. Literally the only time Pete has come across to me as threatening was when we first saw him drinking outside in the dark, and that scene was being shown to us from Rick's POV when he was still at his most suspicious and skeptical of the town. Ever since then he's usually been seen drunk, but never threatening, which could be a sign that he's drinking to dull the pain (and possibly shame).
Sam was supposed to paint that owl sculpture that day, but he wrecked it instead because he was upset about something. The owl sculpture was something he was working on with Jessie (who also has a tattoo of an owl, by the way, so it seems she has an affinity for them), so if Jessie were the 'good' parent that Sam wanted to protect, why would he lash out on something that was special to her?
I get that it's easier to assume Pete is the abuser because that's the usual and most obvious route to take, but I really hope the writers give us something a little more clever than that. We've already dealt with a scumbag husband abusing his wife and child (Ed). Women absolutely can be the abusive one in a relationship in the real world, so I don't see why it can't be the case here.
I just hope Rick doesn't kill Pete only to find out after the fact that he was actually the victim, which is where I'm thinking the writers are going with this storyline.
Actually the clever and tragic part of making Jesse the abuser and not Pete would be for Rick to murder the wrong parent only to find out later that he had done so.
Maybe not seen, but it's heavily implied. Why isn't Jessie acting scared of him? Victims of abuse are very good at putting on a facade.
But there's Pete's ominous speaking to rick on the porch, there's the fact that Pete is apparently an alcoholic (which is a huge signal in of itself) and then during the party there was a minor scuffle between him and Jessie, Jessie offers to go get something for Pete and he's rather short with her and acts annoyed as he goes to do it himself.
And, even accepting the fact that there's abusive wives out there towards their husbands, let's be honest. What's more likely? That this big, alcoholic, man is being abused by his waif of a wife who's shown no real violent or mean tendencies (as opposed to her husband) or that that big, alcoholic, man abuses his wife and child and they're able to more-or-less put on a "front" for it all to seem normal. (As what happens in pretty much all abuse cases.)
That's even all ignoring what happens in the source material.
And is it really "clichéd" for this to be the case? Aren't women overwhelmingly abused more by their husbands than men by their wives? And if you don't follow those numbers as they're not likely true reflections due to under-reported cases of wife-on-husband abuse, aren't women still abused by their husbands? So what would be the problem with Jessie and her husband to be the victims here?
For a TV series that's already dealt with one case of an abusive husband, yes, it would be cliched. The fact that it's more likely for the husband to be the abuser is why it would be better if Jessie is the abuser, because it would be different and interesting. I'm hoping that the writers will prove to be a little more clever in this case than they usually do, but I'm not holding my breath.
That's what I said...
Look... I'm not saying it absolutely HAS to be Jesse that's the abuser, but based on what we've seen, it's just as viable to prejudge it that way as it is the opposite, imho, but the notion that this show uses no misdirects, surprises or "Twists" is just not correct. They aren't guilty of the overblown & elaborate types that LOST frequented, but they drop things all the time that people don't see coming. They're a tv show. It's required to keep people guessing to some degree
It was "Heavily implied" that Eugene was on the level & knew wtf he was talking about, at least to the degree that every one of the characters believed & backed him. Shane & Lori's coupling was a twist. The entire trip to the CDC was a twist, that instead of being their rescue, ended up almost getting them killed
That the characters all believe something & it turns out to be untrue or even the complete opposite is not unheard of on this show. That something comes out of left field isn't either
I've no clue how this turn of events with Jesse will play out, but I've seen just as much to make a prejudgment that is if not opposed to the one the characters have made, is at least neutral
It was "Heavily implied" that Eugene was on the level & knew wtf he was talking about, at least to the degree that every one of the characters believed & backed him. Shane & Lori's coupling was a twist. The entire trip to the CDC was a twist, that instead of being their rescue, ended up almost getting them killed
That the characters all believe something & it turns out to be untrue or even the complete opposite is not unheard of on this show. That something comes out of left field isn't either
I've no clue how this turn of events with Jesse will play out, but I've seen just as much to make a prejudgment that is if not opposed to the one the characters have made, is at least neutral
There have been no real twists
I'm starting to think that people's inability not to speculate has retrospectively made them feel that there have been twists. I'm as guilty of doing it as the next guy. The show hints at things but usually follows quite the unsurprising route
- why didn't Aaron eat the applesauce, what's he hiding....um nothing
- look, Glenn is holding a baseball bat....that means something....doubt it
- why won't Deanna let them go in the clock tower....what's she hiding up there.....um nothing
- the people of the ASZ are hiding something....not really
- Noah is hiding something.......nope
- the gun in the blender meant something....nope
- Gabriel isn't a real minister, he's hiding something.....no, he's just unhinged
- Jessie is actually the abuser.....nah, doubt it
And so on
I'm starting to think that people's inability not to speculate has retrospectively made them feel that there have been twists. I'm as guilty of doing it as the next guy. The show hints at things but usually follows quite the unsurprising route
- why didn't Aaron eat the applesauce, what's he hiding....um nothing
- look, Glenn is holding a baseball bat....that means something....doubt it
- why won't Deanna let them go in the clock tower....what's she hiding up there.....um nothing
- the people of the ASZ are hiding something....not really
- Noah is hiding something.......nope
- the gun in the blender meant something....nope
- Gabriel isn't a real minister, he's hiding something.....no, he's just unhinged
- Jessie is actually the abuser.....nah, doubt it
And so on
And maybe my limited knowledge of what happens in the comics is getting in the way. But, near as I can recall the show has had no real, true, twists. Probably the biggest one is the "everyone is infected and turns no matter how they die" thing which is less a twist and just more a surprising development.
A twist has to truly come out of left-field and almost contradict what we've seen and were told before. While, arguably, still staying more-or-less consistent within the established story. So the "everyone is infected" thing was a surprise reveal rather than a twist as it was never established before that you had to be bitten to turn.
But, agreed, hux, there's been no real twists and I think people just try too hard to rationalize and make sense of things we're shown and have seen. Hell, the actual street they film the ASZ scenes on is named "Morgan Street", maybe the name of that street is what prompted the show runners to use that community/housing development but it's more likely it was a happy coincidence to be a street name in a community that'd allow the production to take place there.
But, it's something they can play with for fun winks at the audience. But, ultimately, means nothing. Particularly since we already know Morgan is out there and on his way to Alexandria.
I don't think we're getting any "hidden clues" or are going to see any "big twists" like the 100-lb waif of a woman being the abuser to her alcoholic dick-weed of a husband.
A twist has to truly come out of left-field and almost contradict what we've seen and were told before. While, arguably, still staying more-or-less consistent within the established story. So the "everyone is infected" thing was a surprise reveal rather than a twist as it was never established before that you had to be bitten to turn.
But, agreed, hux, there's been no real twists and I think people just try too hard to rationalize and make sense of things we're shown and have seen. Hell, the actual street they film the ASZ scenes on is named "Morgan Street", maybe the name of that street is what prompted the show runners to use that community/housing development but it's more likely it was a happy coincidence to be a street name in a community that'd allow the production to take place there.
But, it's something they can play with for fun winks at the audience. But, ultimately, means nothing. Particularly since we already know Morgan is out there and on his way to Alexandria.
I don't think we're getting any "hidden clues" or are going to see any "big twists" like the 100-lb waif of a woman being the abuser to her alcoholic dick-weed of a husband.
A twist pretty much is a surprise reveal. TWD has had several twists, but none are really of the magnitude that some people theorize about. Like people went on and on about Bob being some kind of secret agent guy, which to me seemed pretty out there. The same might be said for theories on Enid, although we'll have to wait and see on that one.
Theories about Jessie being the abuser are in the same league. Wanting to see things that aren't actually there. Because even though TWD has had twists, most of them have subtle clues as to their nature. I wouldn't be completely dismissive of those clues, but just try to stay out of tinfoil hat territory.
You are aware that women can and do abuse men in the real world, right? Can you cite one clear example of Jessie being a victim of abuse? She has zero marks or bruises on her body (that we've seen) and doesn't seem to be very worried about covering any up, given how often we see her in outfits that keep her arms bared. Abuse victims tend to wear long-sleeved shirts to hide that kind of stuff (speaking of which, so far Pete's always been seen wearing extra layers and long sleeves). Jessie has exhibited zero behavioral signs that she's scared of Pete, and from what I know of the comics she's nothing like her comic counterpart, who was timid and quiet where TV Jessie is outgoing and confident.
I'm not saying it's guaranteed that Jessie is the abuser, I'm just asking you guys to actually look at the evidence and consider the possibility. Remember that we're seeing all of this from the POV of some incredibly damaged people: Rick, who is already damn near animalistic anyway and clearly is attracted to and feels somewhat possessive toward Jessie, and Carol, who herself is a victim of abuse and would naturally be inclined to assume right away that Pete is abusing Jessie and their kids, just based on her own experience.
The writers on this how might not always go for the unexpected, but that doesn't mean they'll always take the less obvious (and, in my opinion, less interesting) route.
I'm not saying it's guaranteed that Jessie is the abuser, I'm just asking you guys to actually look at the evidence and consider the possibility. Remember that we're seeing all of this from the POV of some incredibly damaged people: Rick, who is already damn near animalistic anyway and clearly is attracted to and feels somewhat possessive toward Jessie, and Carol, who herself is a victim of abuse and would naturally be inclined to assume right away that Pete is abusing Jessie and their kids, just based on her own experience.
The writers on this how might not always go for the unexpected, but that doesn't mean they'll always take the less obvious (and, in my opinion, less interesting) route.
Yes, I am aware that men are victims of abuse. This just doesn't strike me as the case. As for Jessie not having any physical wounds, it's possible he's not physically abusing her but, rather, emotionally abuses her. Or he's able to physically abuse her in a way that doesn't leave marks or bruises.
I just don't see this waif of a woman being the abuser of her burly drunken lout of a husband. It doesn't add up.
The guy is an alcoholic he showed fairly hostile or at least strong annoyance at Jessie's offer to help with drinks at the party. The hallmarks are there.
And while we're seeing the reactions of things from our characters' perspective we are seeing everything as they are. I doubt the show meant to show us Rick imagining seeing the guy get annoyed with his wife's offer to help. Or his ominous "greeting" from the porch, or the several scenes we've seen of him three-sheets. Yeah it's Rick's perspective he reaches for his gun when he sees him, or Carol's impressions of the guy being an abuser. But then there's the things we the audience have actually seen.
But, sure, go with "Jessie has no bruises and men get abused too!"
I'll go with "the guy is a drunken jerk and women and children are far more likely to be victims of abuse than men are."
I don't think there is a twist, but instead, what can Rick do about it. Most likely the town knows what Pete is. And allow it because he's a doctor, and doctor's are such a rare commodity. They likely allow him his 'indulgences' as long as he keeps it at home.
Outright killing him, while a good idea, is against what is best for the town.
Outright killing him, while a good idea, is against what is best for the town.
The fact that it's far more likely is why I think it's not as clear-cut as you do. Like I've said, we've already explored this territory before on this show. Why bother going through the same thing again?
Pete is seen drinking almost constantly, yes, but we don't know if he's doing it because he's an alcoholic or because he's trying to numb the pain and shame he's experiencing. We honestly don't know.
Although a friend of mine did suggest that maybe both Pete and Jessie are abusive, but not to each other, but to their kids. That would help explain why Sam would destroy the owl sculpture, which makes no sense if Jessie is a victim. Why destroy an object that means something to Jessie if she's supposed to be the "good" parent?
EDIT: Said something that didn't need to be said and had no real business being there. If you saw that, Trekker, I apologize!
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I didn't relies that this might be a spoiler and I don't know how to put it under spoiler while editing it.
Sam might not had distoryed the owl statue cause of being abuse. He might had destroy it cause his parents are fighting a lot and he doesn't want his mom to leave.
If you had read the comic verson? You will know who Pete real target was and why.
The rest of you have to read the comic verson. Unless someone whom had read it post it as a spoiler?
Sam might not had distoryed the owl statue cause of being abuse. He might had destroy it cause his parents are fighting a lot and he doesn't want his mom to leave.
If you had read the comic verson? You will know who Pete real target was and why.
The rest of you have to read the comic verson. Unless someone whom had read it post it as a spoiler?
the ASZ are hiding something....yeah, actually... 2 things. 1) There's some domestic abuse going on (being hidden, just like it would in a pre-apocalypse suburb and 2) They leave their people behind. It's their current belief system, but something they aren't proud of.
The gun in the blender hasn't been resolved -- yet. I think we will soon.
And Glenn's bat might be foreshadowing (for either finale or season 6) ...though i hope not
The gun in the blender hasn't been resolved -- yet. I think we will soon.
And Glenn's bat might be foreshadowing (for either finale or season 6) ...though i hope not
Lashing out against his mom probably gets him a talking to or just a shrug from her. Lashing out against his dad gets him yelled at/beaten. Kids are also irrational. Destroying the sculpture could not be about retaliation against either parent but just simply because it is there and he has to vent his frustrations and doesn't know how to handle it.
Didn't see it. But, I guess I accept your apology none-the-less.
I hope not. The resolution to Glenn's story in the comics was so horrific, I quit reading it after that. I can't blame the characters for that, it was all on Kirkman.
I basically just insinuated that you'd prefer to accept the more common situation of the man being the abusive one because it's easier. Not really much of an insult, I guess, but I still felt bad after saying it.
Anything is possible. But this show isn't known for a lot of misdirection, so it's highly improbable. They're clearly establishing Peter as a bad guy in several ways, so it would be a lot of misdirection.
Also, if Pete is physically a lot stronger than Jessie, then why would Sam need to get him a gun? A gun seems like the answer to vulnerability and weakness, and Pete doesn't strike me as weak towards anything except booze.
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