I, Borg is really bad

[AntonyF]

But really, infect Hugh and send him on his way. There's no moral story for me here.

You have no problem to use a person, whom after being around for a few days you know is an innocent individual, to go off and infect his entire species with a "virus" in order to commit genocide?

I'd argue there's quite a bit of a moral story here.

But he's not an individual, he's a Borg drone. A confused Borg drone.

Hold on a sec here...When "I Borg" was written, the Borg were a race. The whole assimilation thing (that the Borg were in fact made up of other alien races who were changed into Borg) came later, and the only person the Borg had "assimilated" at the time was Picard.

I don't think so. They started off that way, in Q Who? yeah... they had babies there. However in Best of Both Worlds they said "We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own" so I think they had established that they would assimilate races.

 

[AgentCoop]

I always felt the flaw of that episode is that it opened the possibility that other Borg could possess likeable qualities,and could be 'saved.' It was a great concept but in practice, it just clouded the issue.

I'm fairly certain that clouding the issue was the writers' intent.

 

[Dukhat]

I don't think so. They started off that way, in Q Who? yeah... they had babies there. However in Best of Both Worlds they said "We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own" so I think they had established that they would assimilate races.

Yes, which was why I said this:

But at the time, the prevailing notion was that the Borg were a humanoid race of their own who added cybernetic implants to themselves, and only assimilated others in order to gain their technological know-how, not to just create more random drones.

During Q-Who and BoBW, the prevailing notion was that there was a Borg race, and they only assimilated people for specific reasons (i.e. a "voice" for the about-to-be-assimilated; or to gain biological and technological know-how), not to actually "reproduce" more Borg. That only came later. Hugh as represented in "I, Borg" was a member of the Borg race, not some assimilated alien who never wanted to be a Borg.

 

[RoJoHen]

Yeah, do we know anything about Hugh's past prior to assimilation? Do we even know if he was assimilated at all? For all we know, he could have been born Borg.

I mean, at one point or another, the Borg had to start off as a distinct race, long before the ever had the power to go around assimilating planets. That means they would require biological reproduction.

 

[IrishNero]

I'm fairly certain that clouding the issue was the writers' intent.

Yes, but that implies two things:

The crew would later need to approach the maiming and killing of Borg as if they weren't sentient, living, breathing persons; all evidence to the contrary.

Hugh would assumingly return to being Borg, and would also return to all efforts of adapting species to the collective....against their will.

The final thought I have is that the crew wasn't really expending much effort otherwise to stop the Borg Collective. Only when it was Picard who was assimilated did the sh*t get real.

 

[Gaith]

During Q-Who and BoBW, the prevailing notion was that there was a Borg race, and they only assimilated people for specific reasons (i.e. a "voice" for the about-to-be-assimilated; or to gain biological and technological know-how), not to actually "reproduce" more Borg. That only came later. Hugh as represented in "I, Borg" was a member of the Borg race, not some assimilated alien who never wanted to be a Borg.

How much later? Was it not fully cemented before First Contact?

 

[Orphalesion]

During Q-Who and BoBW, the prevailing notion was that there was a Borg race, and they only assimilated people for specific reasons (i.e. a "voice" for the about-to-be-assimilated; or to gain biological and technological know-how), not to actually "reproduce" more Borg. That only came later. Hugh as represented in "I, Borg" was a member of the Borg race, not some assimilated alien who never wanted to be a Borg.

How much later? Was it not fully cemented before First Contact?

I don't think so. I was just a little kid when that all was worked out, but now looking backwards it seems FC transformed them from this weird, incomprehensible race into basically cyberpunk zombies, complete with infection.

 

[Dukhat]

During Q-Who and BoBW, the prevailing notion was that there was a Borg race, and they only assimilated people for specific reasons (i.e. a "voice" for the about-to-be-assimilated; or to gain biological and technological know-how), not to actually "reproduce" more Borg. That only came later. Hugh as represented in "I, Borg" was a member of the Borg race, not some assimilated alien who never wanted to be a Borg.

How much later? Was it not fully cemented before First Contact?

Nope. The last time we saw the Borg before ST:FC was TNG's "Descent," and those rogue Borg were still treated as members of the Borg race, not assimilated aliens.

 

[just_me]

I'm on a TNG re-run with Blu-rays, but this is the first episode I've compelled to write about. I enjoyed the episode back in its day, not a favourite but it's okay. And Jon Del Arco is even cute in Borg makeup, which is part of the problem too.

It's just so preposterous that it angers me. The borg kill millions, possibly billions, and there's all this hand wringing about whether it's right to infect Hugh. DO IT! Millions... millions of innocents. This isn't a race, despite them keep calling the Borg a race. They are the antithesis of a race, they destroy races. They are a cancer that take lives, infecting them would not take a single life as those lives are already gone.

Of course what help is Hugh is young, sweet, cute... this isn't some grizzled, nasty, decaying borg. He's a sweet boy with a few wires in him. And he's so polite towards the end, thus making you the viewer conflicted.

Silly scenes, like Picard beaming Hugh to his ready room instead of meeting him in the brig.

Then they decide okay let's send him back, so they can all get a feeling of individuality. Oh that's fine then. A cube full of individuals who can't operate their ship, that's totally not more dangerous than the virus. I'm sure one of them will take the conn and fly them somewhere. But it does give them clean hands I guess.

And where are Starfleet? The thought that the Enterprise can make all these decisions on their own is preposterous.

Maybe it'd have been good if Picard was completely entrenched on the idea, and the rest of his crew overrule him, refuse to do it... something like that. A proper conflict.

You know, I don't over think Trek. Wonky episode, move on... but it's only now rewatching TNG that I just find this episode silly. And I admit DS9 has probably coloured that view, because they can do moral ambiguity well. In the Pale Moonlight, now that's a true dilemma.

But really, infect Hugh and send him on his way. There's no moral story for me here.

do we have a right to kill Hugh who was individual as much as us to destroy entire Borg race? i mean we can't kill incident whatever our aim is

 

[JonnyQuest037]

But really, infect Hugh and send him on his way. There's no moral story for me here.

That's what I always thought.

Agreed. The crew pussy-footing around this issue was absurd when the Borg had been presented up until this point as Space Nazis Squared. I've hated this episode ever since it first aired. One of Trek's worst, IMO.

 

[Trekker4747]

I'm glad genocide is such an easy decision for so many people. Gives me hope for the future.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But he's not an individual, he's a Borg drone. A confused Borg drone.

The very fact that Hugh is capable of being "confused" proves he is an individual.

 

[Mudd]

He's a person. You missed the forest for the trees.

The point of the story, like a lot of Star Trek stories, hasn't got a damned thing to do with some preposterous sci-fi cyber-zombie continuity crap.

The point of the story is that the enemy are people.

They are always people. It's only by looking at them from a distance, as if they're a mass, focusing on what you think makes them different from you, that makes the decision to kill them "simple."

There is not a situation you will ever encounter when you turn off the TV and look at the world around you where that is not true.

There's no reason to believe it will be different in a year, ten years or a thousand: when you're deciding to kill the enemy, the decision is about killing people like yourself.

Now - if the writers weren't willing to have Picard confront Hugh's personhood and recognize that destroying the Borg en masse was immoral then they had no story to tell - not one relevant to our culture, anyway. The idea of doing such a story and holding up that "final solution" to the Borg as morally acceptable might work in some trivial cheesy videogame or for some more aggressive, totalitarian civilization, but not for us.

 

[Trekker4747]

He's a person. You missed the forest for the trees.

The point of the story, like a lot of Star Trek stories, hasn't got a damned thing to do with some preposterous sci-fi cyber-zombie continuity crap.

The point of the story is that the enemy are people.

They are always people. It's only by looking at them from a distance, as if they're a mass, focusing on what you think makes them different from you, that makes the decision to kill them "simple."

There is not a situation you will ever encounter when you turn off the TV and look at the world around you where that is not true.

There's no reason to believe it will be different in a year, ten years or a thousand: when you're deciding to kill the enemy, the decision is about killing people like yourself.

Indeed. That was essentially the entire point of the episode that The Borg are a people. Very different than us, sure, and apparently intent on destroying us, sure. But, none-the-less "a people" and not something that should just be destroyed with a shrug. I think likening it to the Crystalline Entity is pretty apt. Here's a creature that's killed countless lives and destroyed entire planets for its own purposes and motivations. Forget that we don't know what its intent was beyond "feeding" and that we don't know if it knew it was destroying intelligent life, but it was simply feeding.

And Picard was all for reaching a dialogue with the creature rather than destroying it.

The Borg are not much different. Granted, they're not open for a dialogue and are dead-set against destroying humanity/the Federation/Alpha Quadrant but that hardly opens them up for annihilation. The Klingons and the Romulans (the latter in particular) were both enemies of The Federation and showed little desire to work with the Federation. The Romulans pretty intent on destroying The Federation, at the very least humanity. But did The Federation opt for genocide of Romulans?

The Borg should be really no different, that they cannot be reasoned with or that a relationship with them is unlikely changes nothing. A relationship with sharks isn't likely, doesn't mean we need to eradicate them in order to prevent deaths.

 

[Gaith]

Nope. The last time we saw the Borg before ST:FC was TNG's "Descent," and those rogue Borg were still treated as members of the Borg race, not assimilated aliens.

I don't think so. I was just a little kid when that all was worked out, but now looking backwards it seems FC transformed them from this weird, incomprehensible race into basically cyberpunk zombies, complete with infection.

Huh, interesting; I'd never realized that, though I did remember the concept of Borg babies being more or less forgotten.

 

[Jeyl]

Then they decide okay let's send him back, so they can all get a feeling of individuality. Oh that's fine then. A cube full of individuals who can't operate their ship, that's totally not more dangerous than the virus. I'm sure one of them will take the conn and fly them somewhere. But it does give them clean hands I guess.

Here's the problem I had with the whole "infecting the Borg with individuality" idea. The Borg capture and assimilate individuals ALL THE TIME! That's their entire point! Hugh isn't connected to the collective so why should anyone assume the Borg will simply leave him alone when he gets reconnected? This is an issue I have when writers try to handle the Borg in a creative way. They don't really understand what kind of a threat the Borg should possess. They're here to assimilate cultures and technology into their collective, so how does Picard respond to such a threat in "The Best of Both Worlds"?

"We have developed new technologies since our last meeting and we are prepared to use them if you do not withdraw from Federation Space!"

That's like threatening a fire with firewood.

Jeri Taylor's comment on this episode best sums it up.

"we can never treat the Borg the same way again."

 

[RoJoHen]

Nope. The last time we saw the Borg before ST:FC was TNG's "Descent," and those rogue Borg were still treated as members of the Borg race, not assimilated aliens.

I don't think so. I was just a little kid when that all was worked out, but now looking backwards it seems FC transformed them from this weird, incomprehensible race into basically cyberpunk zombies, complete with infection.

Huh, interesting; I'd never realized that, though I did remember the concept of Borg babies being more or less forgotten.

Yeah, the Borg wouldn't even appear on VOY until the following year, and even then they still more or less behaved like the same Borg we knew in early TNG.

 

[Marsden]

Did doctors cry at the genocide of the smallpox virus?

 

[RoJoHen]

I don't know. Did any of them become friends with the smallpox virus?

 

[Mudd]

Did doctors cry at the genocide of the smallpox virus?

Is that being argued on behalf of the several political/historical movements that have identified undesirable human beings as infections?