"The Menagerie" questions

[Timo]

Whoops, not just the wrong episode, but the wrong series altogether - the first time we see this is in TNG "Half a Life", actually.

So in TOS, it's just beam-ups that feature people physically connecting to each other, stretching out, lying down, what-have-you, thus demonstrating the edges of the circular pads play no major role in that variant of the process.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

...I am so tired about the pretend mystery of how Fox beamed down. Scotty moved the ship out of range and lowered a shield to beam him down. Done. No anything else, just because they didn't spoon feed us with a paragraph of technobabble like other shows. We don't need to see the characters get dressed or sleep every night to know they do that, too.

Except that doesn't work dramatically, because the episode established the "we can't beam down" plot point as a serious obstacle, and then just didn't bother to explain how the problem was solved. It doesn't matter if you can rationalize an explanation after the fact, it's simply bad writing and bad structure to define something as a serious problem and then dismiss it without explanation. It's got nothing to do with technobabble, it's simply about playing fair with your audience.

By analogy, let's say you're watching a Western where the hero has been trapped in a cave-in and has no way of getting to town in time to save his best friend from being hanged. Then he shows up in time to prevent the hanging, and the fact that he was trapped in a cave with no way out is not even mentioned, let alone explained. That is simply a story cheat. Sure, as a viewer you can imagine that the hero found an air shaft out of the cave or was rescued by his wonder horse. But it's not your job to explain that, it's the writers' job, because they're the ones who set up the obstacle in the first place. If they had no intention of having the cave-in be an obstacle to the hero in the last act, they shouldn't have had it happen at all. You don't set something up unless you intend to pay it off.

 

[Timo]

the episode established the "we can't beam down" plot point as a serious obstacle

Except it didn't. Nowhere is it suggested that beaming down would be either impossible, nor even slightly hindered by the raised shields. It's just that Scotty feels that, under the circumstances,

a) dropping shields is idiotic and
b) beaming down is idiotic

but the two aren't related except through the fact that makes both idiotic: the folks down on the planet are extremely hostile, if not openly, then secretly.

When Fox is shown beaming down anyway, it's simply proof that he's an idiot. Scotty says as much when Spock calls him and belatedly tells that nobody should try beaming down.

It's an invention of the "Arena" writers that shields would stop the heroes from beaming up. And none of the TOS episodes include the interpretation that shields would stop the heroes from beaming down.

Indeed, I can't think of an episode of any Trek show or movie where beaming down with shields raised would have been an issue either way; it's always a matter of worrying about how to recover the away team or landing party afterwards. Can anybody else come up with a clear-cut example of shields stopping the heroes (or the villains) from beaming either down or out?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[johnnybear]

Yes he called him 'that popn'jay Fox' didn't he!
JB

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Indeed, I can't think of an episode of any Trek show or movie where beaming down with shields raised would have been an issue either way; it's always a matter of worrying about how to recover the away team or landing party afterwards. Can anybody else come up with a clear-cut example of shields stopping the heroes (or the villains) from beaming either down or out?

During the TNG era, it's all about the frequency at which the shields are resonating. Those who know the frequency can pass a transporter beam or topedo through the shields.

 

[Christopher]

Nowhere is it suggested that beaming down would be either impossible, nor even slightly hindered by the raised shields. It's just that Scotty feels that, under the circumstances,

a) dropping shields is idiotic and
b) beaming down is idiotic

but the two aren't related except through the fact that makes both idiotic: the folks down on the planet are extremely hostile, if not openly, then secretly.

Hmm... I suppose that's actually true. The lowering of the "screens" is implicitly linked to the cessation of disruptor fire. The fact that Scott and Fox are discussing beaming down and discussing lowering screens as part of the same conversation gives the impression that they're the same issue, but that isn't actually made explicit.

Yes he called him 'that popn'jay Fox' didn't he!

Popinjay. It's an archaic English term for a parrot or for a conceited or foppish person. It's a bit odd to be used for Fox, though, unless that huge, wide collar he has on is some kind of upper-class fashion craze in the mid-2260s.

 

[GNDN18]

Yes he called him 'that popn'jay Fox' didn't he!

Popinjay. It's an archaic English term for a parrot or for a conceited or foppish person. It's a bit odd to be used for Fox, though, unless that huge, wide collar he has on is some kind of upper-class fashion craze in the mid-2260s.

Well, it was the most outlandish men's outfit sported by a Federation official (Commissioner Ferris' cape notwithstanding).

On the other hand, perhaps Scotty was indirectly criticizing the Federation Council for its misguided gun-boat diplomacy: he could not abide Fox "parroting" the party line.

In addition to his talents as an aficionado of Bacchus and as a miracle worker, Scott also held a Lit.D. (philologist), from the University of Aberdeen. Professor Morbius was on his dissertation committee. (Conjecture.)

 

[Mudd]

The episode also must have really, really left awestruck the first generation of watchers, who'd presumably have no idea there was a rejected pilot to use as framing device. The episode presented the idea not just that the Enterprise had a past, but that it looked radically, enormously different. It must've been mind-blowing; the audience expectation would surely have been for a lightly redressed Enterprise set.

Yes, it made a big impression on me and my friends. It really did create a sense of history that I'm sure a show with flashbacks filmed at the same time would not have produced.

Though we didn't have any idea of what was involved in producing TV shows, we did notice that the Enterprise model appeared differently in different shots - not just here but in most episodes - but this was already a familiar (and puzzling) feature of other shows we liked such as Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea (the Seaview's bow windows kept changing in number).

 

[Melakon]

On the other hand, perhaps Scotty was indirectly criticizing the Federation Council for its misguided gun-boat diplomacy: he could not abide Fox "parroting" the party line.

Gunboat diplomacy usually means a show of force to accomplish desired goals. Using force was something Fox definitely didn't want. Scott was the hawk, Fox was the dove.

 

[GNDN18]

On the other hand, perhaps Scotty was indirectly criticizing the Federation Council for its misguided gun-boat diplomacy: he could not abide Fox "parroting" the party line.

Gunboat diplomacy usually means a show of force to accomplish desired goals. Using force was something Fox definitely didn't want. Scott was the hawk, Fox was the dove.

Quite correct, Melakon. I stretched a little there because of Fox's insistence upon opening diplomatic relations at any cost.

 

[Melakon]

. . .at any cost.

Well, let's consider what Fox meant by "at any cost". His goal was to establish peaceful relations. To achieve that, he was willing to sacrifice the ship and its crew. But not the people of Eminiar. Presumably, he did not include himself in that acceptable losses column either, since he seemed quite surprised Anan 7 intended to kill him.

He seemed to treat his aide as an acceptable loss too. Fox is a superb spokesman for humanity.

 

[GNDN18]

Those would seem to be his mission parameters, much to the aide's dismay.

Even as a kid, though, I rankled at his arrogant presumption that either his diplomatic skill or the appeal mom, apple pie, and the UFP would override whatever reason prompted the Eminians to broadcast code 7-10.

As an adult, though, I've grown to appreciate Gene Lyons' performance. After being such a herbert in the first three acts, he sells sincere humility in the fourth.

 

[Corylea]

If the Talosians' telepathy could reach from Talos IV to Starbase Eleven normally, then General Order 7 is useless, because the Talosians can get you from anywhere. But I'm assuming that General Order 7 isn't useless, because the Talosians can't usually reach so far. How come they can in this case, then?

I figure that the Talosians were able to reach Kirk clear out on Starbase Eleven because they had been in telepathic contact with Spock and were using his mind as a relay point.

 

[GNDN18]

I figure that the Talosians were able to reach Kirk clear out on Starbase Eleven because they had been in telepathic contact with Spock and were using his mind as a relay point.

That's certainly a plausible theory. Perhaps, though, Starfleet seriously underestimated their telepathic ability. Fortunately, instead of deciding to reach out and swat the Federation, the Talosians extended a helping hand.

As a side note, Starfleet's understanding of psionic ability was always pretty shaky. Note McCoy's skepticism of Spock's feeling the death of 400 Vulcans or Admiral Morrow's dismissal of "Vulcan mysticism" in TSFS. They certainly weren't prepared for the effects of the Galactic Barrier in WNMHGB.

 

[Timo]

Regarding the effort of "establishing diplomatic relations", I think we might be misinterpreting the "we" in who is actually going to achieve it. Fox is just part of a big mean machine, and so is Kirk: if they all perish trying to broach the Code 7-10 secrecy, then so be it, as this will still have helped a little bit in finding the relevant facts. There would be other ships to follow, and follow soon, unlike in certain other adventures where the heroes stumble onto a danger Starfleet knows nothing of.

Fact-finding is clearly in order, as Spock tells the audience that basically nothing is known of the planet(s). Other parts of the expository dialogue establish that there are limits to what Kirk can do diplomatically, yet basically none to what an Ambassador can (a sensible setup, as soldiers should never have power over gunboat diplomacy!) so having Fox aboard is a good precaution even for a purely pathfinding mission.

Fox can be seen as a selfless individual, as an alternative to him being an idiot. The ship is being fired upon? Scotty and friends can't figure out why - Kirk is stuck on the planet without a communicator. So the fact-finding mission is a total failure. But if Fox beams down, armed with a smile and the "It must be a misunderstanding" pretense, there's at least some chance of finding out relevant facts before Scotty has to withdraw or start acting on his own. Even if that's likely to cost Fox his life.

That Fox subsequently is amazed that he is going to be killed is understandable, really. There would be little to wonder about being gunned down at first sight, and he might be prepared for that. But these people all of a sudden, and very politely to boot, tell Fox that there's a war going on and there's going to be an execution, two rather nonsensical claims that the audience is well prepared for but Fox truly cannot be.

I figure that the Talosians were able to reach Kirk clear out on Starbase Eleven because they had been in telepathic contact with Spock and were using his mind as a relay point.

The other option is that they got their inside man smuggled from Talos to SB11 somehow. They could make the Enterprise and perhaps the Columbia crash and burn; with this bit of practice, they might have hijacked the third vessel they lured in, and inserted their operative using that ship.

(If it were a human ship, the easiest sort to lure in with their knowledge of human distress calls and whatnot, its crew would be useless to them - no matter what their goals, stated or hidden, they were unable to use Pike's crew originally. But Pike is a special kind of human, thanks to his experiences, and they could work with him, warranting the operative-insertion complexity.)

Personally, I feel the maximum range of their telepathy was that which allowed them to create the false distress call in "The Cage" and transmit the imagery in "The Menagerie". And that was too little to reach any starbases or regular shipping lanes, and only worked on exploration vessels headed for Talos, or starships taking shortcuts to get their wounded to a place of treatment.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Melakon]

As an adult, though, I've grown to appreciate Gene Lyons' performance. After being such a herbert in the first three acts, he sells sincere humility in the fourth.

Yeah, Lyons is great in it. When it first aired, I had already seen him in other shows, and it was the kind of character he was good at. I love how his voice trembles during "This is a diplomatic matter!"

 

[Dude111]

After the events of "The Menagerie" do you think the Federation opened up diplomatic relations with Talos IV? Did they strike General Order 7?

Well they still did not understand Talos IV and I doubt they would be willing to try to get to know them.....

I would say NO,Order 7 remained....... (I believe they were scared how they operated (Mind controlling,etc))

 

[MarsWeeps]

Nowhere is it suggested that beaming down would be either impossible, nor even slightly hindered by the raised shields.

No, but according to the transcripts, they can't fire phasers with the screens/shields up, which seems strange. I'm pretty sure they've done that in other episodes.

SCOTT: We can't fire full phasers with our screens up, and We can't lower our screens with their disruptors on us. Of course I could treat them to a few dozen photon torpedoes.

 

[Mytran]

Perhaps it's a power reserve thing? Photon Torpedoes have an independent drive system and are thus not affected by extra power being diverted into the shield generators.

 

[Timo]

That's as good a rationalization as any. The energies hitting the ship must be immense, to generate those decibels... While the ship can shrug them off, it's apparently only at the expense of other things such as firepower. (In contrast, transporters have often operated on minimal power, especially in the spinoffs, so Fox trivially using that machinery even when the shields are struggling is consistent.)

Timo Saloniemi