Yup.
Still drawn to this episode as it has another starship and cool assignment patches...a visual reminder that there is a Starfleet.
The Omega Glory - Info about the Enterprise?
- Thread starter JonnyQuest037
- Start date
Yup.
Still drawn to this episode as it has another starship and cool assignment patches...a visual reminder that there is a Starfleet.
I always assumed that shuttlecraft would be swapped among starships and starbases as convenient. We've mentioned The Menagerie in this thread: the shuttlecraft that Kirk & "Commodore Mendez" use to chase the Enterprise, would have to be stored somewhere.
I didn't think that at any point in the show, the Enterprise necessarily had the same 4 shuttlecraft they started with. So the "7" shouldn't throw us.
I just re-watched Journey to Babel the other day (to commemorate Nimoy). There's a great shot when Sarek & Amanda arrive on board. We are outside the hangar bay and linger with Kirk & Spock & MCCoy, as the red shirt honor guard troops in and lines up in front of the shuttlecraft, then Sarek disembarks, then they all walk back into the foreground and Kirk greets the ambassador. Really interesting shot.
Why except the Constellation? What's different about it?
Specifics? Is it shuttle size, number, or no feasible way to taxi, then launch in such a crowded hangar?
I think it would be reasonable for both the saucer and engineering hull to have "engine rooms."
The saucer would need one for the impulse rockets, near and able to service them normally when the ship is joined, and especially when the ship is separated. That the engineering hull has one is pretty much a foregone conclusion, as far as I'm concerned.
As far as what each one looks like, and more to the point where exactly particular scenes took place, eh, that might be hard to tell.
One option that's worth floating is that all the "engine room" scenes took place in the secondary hull, but in different sections of engineering, say different decks. The one with the basement ambiance could be the one underneath the other. I know that's not entirely satisfactory, but I don't think any option of making sense out of the on-screen sets would be.
The saucer would need one for the impulse rockets, near and able to service them normally when the ship is joined, and especially when the ship is separated. That the engineering hull has one is pretty much a foregone conclusion, as far as I'm concerned.
As far as what each one looks like, and more to the point where exactly particular scenes took place, eh, that might be hard to tell.
One option that's worth floating is that all the "engine room" scenes took place in the secondary hull, but in different sections of engineering, say different decks. The one with the basement ambiance could be the one underneath the other. I know that's not entirely satisfactory, but I don't think any option of making sense out of the on-screen sets would be.
I'm sure he didn't even exist from waist down. Heck, I'm not sure he existed at all, considering so much about the SB 11 action was downright illusory or potentially done under the influence of the Talosians. Perhaps Pike had died recently or even decades ago, and the Talosians simply lured Kirk to Talos in order to complete their slave-breeding mission (Kirk never noticed half a dozen of his best yeomen of either sex went missing).
If Pike lived, though, he might have been not just physically totally crippled, but also brain-damaged in the sense of having lost the ability to use language. The suitably enlightened McCoy would definitely still see his "mind" remains in there, intact and aware, but no mere voice synthesizer would ever allow it to speak its piece.
Regarding TAS, the shuttle flight deck seen there has different dimensions from those seen in TOS, but both might be taken with a grain of salt, considering the forced perspective and the shortcomings of animation. In terms of stowage, there ought to be plenty of space for spacecraft sized like vans; TAS is problematic because when the shuttles do see use, the interiors make them seem much larger than that.
Not only Finney but Evil Kirk exploits the two major characteristics of Engineering in evidence:
1) It's a vast maze
2) It's almost completely empty of personnel under normal circumstances
The second factor would make it easy for the Klingons to take control of Engineering, the vastness being no factor in that. At worst, a single hapless Grease Monkey, Second Class might be left behind the twenty-second beer barrel from starboard - but if he or she attempted valiant sabotage, whatever the * creature did would negate that sabotage right away, and if he or she attempted attack against the Klingons, a cycle of swift death and frustrating rebirth would follow...
Timo Saloniemi
Firstly the TAS shuttlecraft were vastly oversized by at least three or four times. Secondly the hangar was shown to accommodate about six or more of those vehicles when in reality you might get three of the moderate sized TOS shuttlecraft crammed in there and even that I think unlikely.
The TAS version is simply a ridiculous exaggeration in terms of scale.
When I first watched TAS back in the day I thought it was rather cool. I look at it now and wonder what they were smoking.
And yet when realistic future prosthetics were utilized in "Spock's Brain", comparisons with "The Menagerie" were unfavorable.
What comparisons are you talking about? From fans? As for "Spock's Brain," I don't know if the remote control crown would constitute a "prosthetic" in the usual sense. It probably stimulated whatever nerves were necessary to keep autonomic functions going ("life support"), while also providing ambulatory remote control. The only reason for this silly display was so that brainless Spock would be able to shut off the pain belts.
If Pike had been a vegetable or in a coma, he would not have been given a mobile wheelchair. And since he could move his head and blink his eyes, the blinky light was totally unnecessary. Ergo, there was nothing wrong with his brain that precluded prosthetics. It was the story that required him to be so isolated.
Again, we come back to engineering and protective suits. Robots today don't have to look like a human figure. And a futuristic technology that includes tractor and pressor beams might not need even a physical robot to go into the dangerous areas of engineering.
Note that the Galileo's registration number is/was (since it burned up) NCC-1701'7, thus suggesting it is associated with the Enterprise.
One wonders how many seconds it takes to paint a new registry, and how often this typically takes place...
Or is it something one can do with a push of a button in the dashboard?
Timo Saloniemi
Or is it something one can do with a push of a button in the dashboard?
Meaning all of the vast and deserted Engineering of TOS could be one big robot, usually taking care of itself. This further meaning that there would be little need for sophisticated work costumes, as those would be so rarely needed.
What do you know about the state of his brain? It's an apparent onscreen fact that he couldn't use a voice box, or else he would have - so his brain probably couldn't process language expression beyond "yes/no" or "good/bad", even though he clearly understood what was being said. That's a well-documented type of brain injury today. Something else comparably realistic could have prevented him from controlling a fake body, except perhaps after years of training which he according to the episode timeline did not yet have.
So you are saying it's silly despite being plausibly futuristic?
Timo Saloniemi
The NIF facility used for Into Darkness wasn't completed until March 2009. As it happens, I toured the facility in May 2009 (I used to work at LLNL) and had the thought at the time, "they should use this place as the Enterprise's engine room". They used to do a lot of magnetic confinement fusion experiments at LLNL as well, what was always funny to me in light of the "brewery" complaints is that most of those facilities and some of the other high energy stuff at LLNL really didn't look that much different from a brewery. The Nova laser they used in the original Tron was pretty cool - the beamlines were in whay was essentially a clean room, so it wasn't quite as industrial (now that I think about it, that section was kind of like the TMP engine room).
I think you know the answer: do more. For everything even daydreamed but never realized during TOS' production, Filmation wanted to make it happen, including life support belts, giant living starships, etc.
I do applaud Filmation for creating other shuttle designs with mission-centric functions, such as the aqua shuttle.
Are there any other TAS/1701 inaccuracies you think are unforgivable?
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Can we try to keep on topic and not have yet another tired debate about the brewery engine room, please?
Well, I don't want to derail the thread or get too far off topic. But in short, the model used for the Constellation was the 18 inch AMT kit, suitably burned and broken and with the decals rearranged. The model kit's proportions are quite different from those of the 11 foot model which represented all the other Connies. The kit decals was rearranged to 1017, a substantially lower value than 1701, or any of her sisters. Also, watch Kirk as they discover Decker. They are looking for Auxiliary Control and that's where Decker is, yet Kirk almost walks past it, only stopping when he notices the person inside, evidently about to pass the room, suggesting he wasn't quite sure where the room should be, which he should have known if the ship was the same class with the same arrangement.
There are two schools of thought on this:
1) The Constellation was exactly the same as the Enterprise, the registry numbers don't actually work in a way where the weird sequence is significant, and the model was what was available and just squint.
2) The differences in the model and the logic of the registry number and Kirk's unfamiliarity with the internal arrangement indicate it was an older class of vessel.
Personally, I go for option 2. I like to imagine that the 1017 was a much older ship that underwent a major rebuild to bring it up to Constitution specs, much as 1701 later underwent a major refit in TMP.
--Alex
...The nice real-world precedent being Italian battleships in WWII. The modern Roma pair of ships and the Cavour pair from the previous war ended up looking nearly identical in both silhouette and detail after the latter two were refit - until one gets down to things like the actual number of main guns per turret.
"Futile attempts at standardization" are a recurring motif in refitting, and might have driven Starfleet as well.
TOS-R also introduced subtle differences into the quartet of Constitutions participating in the war games of "The Ultimate Computer". "Upgrading one ship at a time" is another real-world motif, and might end up providing Starfleet with a dozen different standards of Constitution. Who knows, perhaps Kirk's ship looked like NCC-1017 just a decade and a half earlier?
Timo Saloniemi
"Futile attempts at standardization" are a recurring motif in refitting, and might have driven Starfleet as well.
TOS-R also introduced subtle differences into the quartet of Constitutions participating in the war games of "The Ultimate Computer". "Upgrading one ship at a time" is another real-world motif, and might end up providing Starfleet with a dozen different standards of Constitution. Who knows, perhaps Kirk's ship looked like NCC-1017 just a decade and a half earlier?
Timo Saloniemi
I think that due to the older registry number, the Constellation was refit to bring it up to Constitution specs. The internals probably aren't exact. The Auxiliary Control room could have been in the same general location and maybe Kirk was on his way to the main entrance and just happened to notice Decker because the secondary entrance was open and he saw him. Or maybe the doors were just in a different location.
There could have been internal modifications made during the ship's multi-year mission. Sort of like knocking out a wall in your house to expand the bedroom or kitchen.
In short, I don't believe all the Constitution Class ships were exact duplicates at all, at least on the inside.
...but it shared the 1701's modified, 2nd season engineering room. That is significant. I think that automatically sells the notion that the intent was that the Connies were the same internally, while the search for auxiliary control could be written off as the wrecked bulkheads / beams causing slight confusion. They did not spend too much time searching for the room, as it was in a familiar area.
I think that as each ship was being built, there could have been minor modifications or changes, especially to something like the Auxiliary Control room. After all, it's not really a second bridge, it's probably just a small room with computes that allows it to access everything needed to control the ship in case the bridge module was destroyed.
As I mentioned earlier, I think the Constellation could have been one of those single nacelle ships at one time and it had a secondary hull added to it to bring it up to Constitution specs. Look at the Kelvin in JJ's universe, now if that wasn't a kitbashed ship, I don't know what is. The upper shuttle deck look like it was just bolted on as an afterthought...and since the Kelvin also existed in the original timeline then that's evidence (at least to me) that Starships were modified/upgraded all the time, and some of those modifications were outright ugly!
It could be that with all the damage, Kirk had difficulty identifying the rooms.
Exeter seems closer to Enterprise's interior design. Constellation and Defiant may be slightly different. All of them will have differences based in missions they've been assigned to do over their decades of service and any damage they received in those years.
Hull numbers as known never really made sense for one class of ship if one follows a linear numbering pattern. Starfleet does not seem to do this at all with any class of starship across all the series. The only time the numbers are one after another are the NX-class.
I stil go with the idea that the hull numbers are there to give information rather than just a number. Shipyard/star system of origin and number of ship built there. 17 = Sol system. 00 and 01, first ships built under the 17xx assignment to Sol. The 17 is given to Sol following the 99th ship built their for Starfleet under the previous number assigned to that system. This way Starfleet could have new ships built in the 600s while also building new ships in the 2000s. The 600s are built in a system that doesn't build a lot of ships for Starfleet, while the 2000s are the next set of numbers assigned to the Sol system, which builds a lot of ships for Starfleet.
The "0" ships are also Sol, so the 0541 of USS Kelvin was a cheat to get 1000 ships out of a number rather than 100.
Exeter seems closer to Enterprise's interior design. Constellation and Defiant may be slightly different. All of them will have differences based in missions they've been assigned to do over their decades of service and any damage they received in those years.
Hull numbers as known never really made sense for one class of ship if one follows a linear numbering pattern. Starfleet does not seem to do this at all with any class of starship across all the series. The only time the numbers are one after another are the NX-class.
I stil go with the idea that the hull numbers are there to give information rather than just a number. Shipyard/star system of origin and number of ship built there. 17 = Sol system. 00 and 01, first ships built under the 17xx assignment to Sol. The 17 is given to Sol following the 99th ship built their for Starfleet under the previous number assigned to that system. This way Starfleet could have new ships built in the 600s while also building new ships in the 2000s. The 600s are built in a system that doesn't build a lot of ships for Starfleet, while the 2000s are the next set of numbers assigned to the Sol system, which builds a lot of ships for Starfleet.
The "0" ships are also Sol, so the 0541 of USS Kelvin was a cheat to get 1000 ships out of a number rather than 100.
