Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federation?

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Let's assume he fires his weapons, full spread, maximum yield. Over and over again until the entire Borg ship is destroyed.

What happens the next time a Federation Starship runs into a Cube? Maybe that ship is smaller and doesn't have as strong of weapons.

There must be a weak spot. When Weyoun or Shran are trapped in a ship fired upon by their own, they always know a weak spot that if you aim at it will blow the ship up with only one shot. So why the hell not on a borg ship?

 

[Timo]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Borg ships are conceptually different: now the weak spot is here, but wait, now it has moved to here, and will it be there or there next?

In ST:FC, Picard knew where it was going to be and when. So he waited (and let a couple of starships die) until a suitable weak spot had developed, and then revealed that to Starfleet.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Borg ships are conceptually different: now the weak spot is here, but wait, now it has moved to here, and will it be there or there next?

In ST:FC, Picard knew where it was going to be and when. So he waited (and let a couple of starships die) until a suitable weak spot had developed, and then revealed that to Starfleet.

Timo Saloniemi

Was it the best way to go about it though?

 

[just_me]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

I think it's possible that there are several kinds of borg that somehow agreed to a peaceful coexistence. Kinda like when different gangs agree to stop shooting each other.

i don't think it is possible because as you know there are connected to collective mind so they all have same idea which is assimilate everything they find isn't it?

But the borg are capable of altering their MO for the sake of survival, like when they refrained from assimilating Voyager for example.

yeah thats true

 

[Timo]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Was it the best way to go about it though?

Well, we can trust Starfleet already tried out the other ways...

As for why the Collective allowed Picard to listen in here, when they withheld such communications privileges in "I, Borg", I'd again argue the Borg were stringing Picard along: the intent was to get the E-E to sail to the past so that her engineers could kickstart UFP technological development and give the 24th century Borg meaty stuff to assimilate. To this end, they needed to make it look as if Picard were winning, so they sacrificed a couple of ships and a Queen. That is, nothing they couldn't afford to spend.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Was it the best way to go about it though?

Well, we can trust Starfleet already tried out the other ways...

As for why the Collective allowed Picard to listen in here, when they withheld such communications privileges in "I, Borg", I'd again argue the Borg were stringing Picard along: the intent was to get the E-E to sail to the past so that her engineers could kickstart UFP technological development and give the 24th century Borg meaty stuff to assimilate. To this end, they needed to make it look as if Picard were winning, so they sacrificed a couple of ships and a Queen. That is, nothing they couldn't afford to spend.

Timo Saloniemi

The borg can be sneaky and deceptive in ENT's Regeneration they trick Enterprise into approaching their ship and only then do they trigger the changes that were meant to take over the ship. It's a miracle that the crew got out of it un-assimilated.

 

[James T Kirk]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

No. The Borg were mauling the Federation well before Picard was assimilated.

Their technological superiority was massive.

As a matter of fact one could make the argument the only reason Riker defeated the Borg was because Picard was assimilated.

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

No. The Borg were mauling the Federation well before Picard was assimilated.

Their technological superiority was massive.

As a matter of fact one could make the argument the only reason Riker defeated the Borg was because Picard was assimilated.

As the old Janeway said: "It must be something you've assimilated."

 

[SonOfMogh]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

If Picard had all the facts, knew everything we know now, then he would definitely have blown it up. How could he have known then that he was dealing with a species with the oddly specific ability to adapt?

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

If Picard had all the facts, knew everything we know now, then he would definitely have blown it up. How could he have known then that he was dealing with a species with the oddly specific ability to adapt?

I believe they've known it from day one.

 

[Timo]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

...But the real question goes, which time of that day?

Picard basically learned it after ceasing fire and beaming an Away Team over, at which point it was too late. He might have listened to Q or Guinan, but those two were less than effective in communicating the seriousness of the situation to Picard in time.

...One wonders why? Guinan should have known what was at stake. So slugging Picard in the head with a magnum-sized bottle of uh-it's-green, HARD, or killing two random crewmembers with that badass gun under her table, would have sounded like prudent attention-catchers.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

...But the real question goes, which time of that day?

Picard basically learned it after ceasing fire and beaming an Away Team over, at which point it was too late. He might have listened to Q or Guinan, but those two were less than effective in communicating the seriousness of the situation to Picard in time.

...One wonders why? Guinan should have known what was at stake. So slugging Picard in the head with a magnum-sized bottle of uh-it's-green, HARD, or killing two random crewmembers with that badass gun under her table, would have sounded like prudent attention-catchers.

Timo Saloniemi

Well, most space faring species have an ability to adapt, so it could have been the default assumption until proven otherwise.

 

[Timo]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

What other Trek species has adapted to our heroes' weapons or tactics within a single space battle - or even a single war? Usually, it would take at least a good night's sleep to think of a countermeasure to what our heroes were doing, and a dockyard layover to get the ship refitted to match.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

What other Trek species has adapted to our heroes' weapons or tactics within a single space battle - or even a single war? Usually, it would take at least a good night's sleep to think of a countermeasure to what our heroes were doing, and a dockyard layover to get the ship refitted to match.

Timo Saloniemi

Still, they should assume that the species will adapt sooner or later.

 

[Ithekro]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Sooner or later usually isn't totally adapted to make one's weapons useless within only a few minutes of fighting.

Starfleet Engineers aren't even that good at adapting. It takes them longer to come up with the technobabble to explain it to the ship's captain before adapting something.

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Sooner or later usually isn't totally adapted to make one's weapons useless within only a few minutes of fighting.

Starfleet Engineers aren't even that good at adapting. It takes them longer to come up with the technobabble to explain it to the ship's captain before adapting something.

That's only because technobabble is sometimes hard to pronounce.

 

[Captain_Amasov]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

At least that ship doesn't have to face a Cube that has already adapted to Starfleet phasers.

(Although it may have adapted to Starfleet photon torpedoes, just like the one in "Q Who?" had without Picard ever having fired any at it. Was that because the Borg were already old friends with antimatter explosives - or because the Borg had had the opportunity to scan the relevant E-D databases, via those Drones they sent aboard, before Picard started firing at them?)

Timo Saloniemi

Isn't it likely that the Borg had adapted to photon torpedoes previously due to the Borg ship that destroyed the starbases and colonies along the Romulan Neutral Zone? Someone must have fired back at some point during the attack, though that wouldn't explain why they hadn't also adapted to phaser fire before they encountered it in "Q Who".

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

At least that ship doesn't have to face a Cube that has already adapted to Starfleet phasers.

(Although it may have adapted to Starfleet photon torpedoes, just like the one in "Q Who?" had without Picard ever having fired any at it. Was that because the Borg were already old friends with antimatter explosives - or because the Borg had had the opportunity to scan the relevant E-D databases, via those Drones they sent aboard, before Picard started firing at them?)

Timo Saloniemi

Isn't it likely that the Borg had adapted to photon torpedoes previously due to the Borg ship that destroyed the starbases and colonies along the Romulan Neutral Zone? Someone must have fired back at some point during the attack, though that wouldn't explain why they hadn't also adapted to phaser fire before they encountered it in "Q Who".

So anything that happens to the borg once, they will adapt?

 

[Tim Walker]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

As I recall, Q commented to Picard that they (the Federation) measured themselves against the Romulans and the Klingons...opponents deemed pitiful/pathetic by Q.

Klingon and Romulan technology seemed roughly comparable to the Federation's; these two empires also seemed to be in the same league in terms of resources.

The Federation was not accustomed to fighting an opponent which had superior technology and greater resources.

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

As I recall, Q commented to Picard that they (the Federation) measured themselves against the Romulans and the Klingons...opponents deemed pitiful/pathetic by Q.

Klingon and Romulan technology seemed roughly comparable to the Federation's; these two empires also seemed to be in the same league in terms of resources.

The Federation was not accustomed to fighting an opponent which had superior technology and greater resources.

No one is. Because that's when you lose.