Kruge: Good villain?

[eyeresist]

Kruge: Speak.

Maltz: Impressive. They can make planets.

*That's* when Kruge digs into him about the idyllic setting with the flag of the Federation overhead, fluttering in the breeze. So, yeah, it's a big condescending mock (which he follows up with "STATION!").

I always wondered - is that where Bill & Ted got that catchphrase from?

 

[Timo]

With absolutely no evidence proving Khan stole the device specifically for a destructive intent, he was--more than likely--interested in its terraforming properties.

And Hitler wanted to study the lives of king crabs with his U-boats. You really make a wonderfully convincing case here...

Khan was not using Genesis to inflict revenge on Kirk at the time he stole the device. He used the power of Reliant for that.

He was busy using a starship, an old flame, two old colleagues, mind-eating eels, hand phasers, transporters and a cave to inflict revenge on Kirk at the time. Can you really blame him for not getting around to also using glass shards, country music and Genesis for the task?

Although factually, Khan did use Genesis. He tormented Kirk by telling him to reveal the Genesis secrets - a real torture double classic where the tormenter asks for the victim to betray whatever he believes in by revealing something he probably doesn't even know.

In the film, he was no longer talking about conquering populations--essentially picking up where he left off on earth of the 1990s.

In the film, he was exclusively talking about getting Kirk. So no, certainly no terraforming ambitions. "But Sir, you have Genesis-" fell on deaf ears, because between those ears was just one thought. And if Kirk was a nail, then everything around Khan would assuredly have become a hammer.

You are pointlessly conflating the TV episode with his clearly altered motives in the film.

Naah, you are. It was Khan of "Space Seed" who had versatile plans and ambitions. It was Khan of "Space Seed" that Kirk and his officers could respect, after a fashion. That Khan might have used Genesis for good. But we see what was left of that Khan after fifteen years, and it's all the sour and soggy bits. Terraforming or even getting the next meal would not be of any concern to that wreck of a man.

Clearly, he had another reason for stealing the device

There is no indication of any other reason. In the total absence of such reasons, the default assumption is the one in line with all the other Khan activities in the movie: that it would help him avenge himself upon Kirk.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

With absolutely no evidence proving Khan stole the device specifically for a destructive intent, he was--more than likely--interested in its terraforming properties.

And Hitler wanted to study the lives of king crabs with his U-boats. You really make a wonderfully convincing case here...

Inapplicable historical references do not act as cover for your unsubstantiated claim about Khan's motive for stealing the Genesis device. Typical of you, when pressed to support your crumbling position with evidence from the film, you dodge and claw for anything to shield you from producing the goods.

Yeah, no one is really surprised by this.

He was busy using a starship, an old flame, two old colleagues, mind-eating eels, hand phasers, transporters and a cave to inflict revenge on Kirk at the time. Can you really blame him for not getting around to also using glass shards, country music and Genesis for the task?

More nonsense, which illustrates that you will post anything--except any evidence from the film to support your claim regarding Khan's motives for stealing the Genesis device.

Although factually, Khan did use Genesis. He tormented Kirk by telling him to reveal the Genesis secrets - a real torture double classic where the tormenter asks for the victim to betray whatever he believes in by revealing something he probably doesn't even know.

No, that was not using the device as a weapon against Kirk at the point he stole the device...because that was not his intent. Leaving Kirk on the Regula asteroid was his punishment.

You are playing a game of one with all of your hopping, skipping and jumping.

In the film, he was exclusively talking about getting Kirk. So no, certainly no terraforming ambitions.

More clear-as-day dodging from you. Again, no surprise. Demonstrate through film evidence that he stole the device for the specific purpose of using it against Kirk. You cannot, because it is not on screen at the motivational point in question.

His wanting to kill Kirk was by using a starship, followed by leaving him "buried alive" on the Regula moon--where he had Kirk literally sitting on a rock as a target for the device, but did not use it. Moreover, in the event Kirk escaped, he would continue his seek and destroy plan with Reliant--not the Genesis device, which only turned into his weapon when defeated and dying--not in any period leading up to, or after initially stealing it.

As a result, his intent cannot--through screen evidence--be said to be one of using the device as a weapon when stolen.

Remember, this is about Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, not fan fiction, or whatever is rattling around in your head.

You are pointlessly conflating the TV episode with his clearly altered motives in the film.

Naah, you are.[/quote]

Funny--you are the misguided guy who incessantly referred to "Space Seed" into this thread--with an equally misguided attempt to sell TV Khan as having the same motives as movie Khan.

You should be tired of being so easily exposed.

Clearly, he had another reason for stealing the device

There is no indication of any other reason. In the total absence of such reasons, the default assumption is the one in line with all the other Khan activities in the movie: that it would help him avenge himself upon Kirk.[/quote]

The film is not vague, or leaving its plot up to the audience to "make your own adventure". There are no "default" positions in producing a straightforward story such as TWOK. The only "default" position here is the one you habitually run to when you cannot use on-screen evidence to support a dead-on-arrival claim basedon your fantasy.

As posted earlier, the evidence is that Khan stole Genesis for its intended purpose, as no action or dialogue indicates any other motive when the device was stolen. That evidence also includes Khan--when having Kirk literally sitting on a rock as a target for the device--did not use it. He was content to leave him stranded, and as seen, in the event Kirk escaped, he would continue his seek and destroy plan with Reliant.

Khan pursued Kirk into the nebula to do what? Continue using Reliant, not fire the device after him. The device-as-weapon a complete change in the reason it was stolen--only happens when Khan was defeated and dying. A last-ditch desperation move.

 

[Timo]

Just make up your mind. Which is it that gets you so hot and bothered - debating technique one-upmanship or defending the honor of a fictional superman? You could drop either act in favor of the other - it would help a lot in getting results.

There's plenty of work there still with inventing a rationale for what alternate plans Khan might have for the invention. "Its intended purpose" explicitly was to save the Federation from food supply problems, and you have a hard time selling the idea that Khan wanted that!

A tad less of that impotent rage, and a tad less of everything, please. Just a chapter or two about what you feel Khan really wanted out of Genesis and why, and how you divined this from a movie that really (yes, really!) said zip about the issue. This might be enough to dislodge the default position, that Khan was on a wrathy mood and wanted revenge. Or then not.

After that, back to the issue of why Kruge pushes your personal buttons so hard...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Just make up your mind. Which is it that gets you so hot and bothered - debating technique one-upmanship or defending the honor of a fictional superman? You could drop either act in favor of the other - it would help a lot in getting results.

Typically hypocritical whining.

Habitually, you enter threads, and (thanks to a fragile ego) try to force completely irrelevant, self-generated fantasies into a discussion or hard evidence of a plot, and when the usual response of rejection occurs, you pretend to be the innocent party.

Pressed again and again, you have failed to provide one bit of screen evidence to counter why Khan did not intend to use the Genesis device as a weapon from the start. Using it as a weapon all along was your out-of-left field idea. All yours. But no one expects you to admit to anything, as your position was false from the start. In absence of supportive evidence, in comes the typical Timo flames, dodging and dragging in irrelevant references.

Much like your asinine idea that Chapel was "racist" in rejecting a piece of plastic (to this day, you have been asked to address that, and of course, the dodging takes center stage), you barking that Khan did not steal the Genesis device for its terraforming properties (while deliberately trying to kill Kirk with Reliant time and again--long after stealing the Genesis device) is a total bust.

 

[martok2112]

With respect to all, Khan obviously did not know what Genesis' true function was...save for whatever information he could pry from Chekov, Terrell, and other knowlegeable members of Reliant's crew. And at that, all he could probably get was that it was some kind of terraforming device, but they did not know the mechanics behind it. That is a bonus part of the explanation as to why Chekov and Terrell ended up on Ceti Alpha V, and not Ceti Alpha VI as they previously thought. (The Ceti Alpha system must've really been an obscure and disinteresting system for them not to have noticed that the place was missing an entire planet. ).

Khan didn't know anything about the Genesis build team...especially did not know that the device's co-creators were mother and son, and connected to Kirk. Using Kirk as a scapegoat for Reliant's sudden move to "appropriate" the device from the scientists on Regula was more of a happy accident. The "who's who" of all this was probably not important to Khan. He simply used Kirk's name and position as Chief of Starfleet Operations to force Regula I's compliance. (At least, I think he's still CoSO at this time....Regula certainly had no reason to listen to the Chief of Starfleet Training Command, or the Commandant of Starfleet Academy.). Khan simply banks on the notion that Kirk will do what he must to protect crew, personnel, and assets, and would be more induced to see to the matter personally now that his name has been invoked. Khan doesn't realize, and I don't think he ever learns Kirk's relationship to the project leaders. (Certainly Kirk didn't realize his full relationship to the male project leader until he subdued David, and laid eyes on him, then hearing Carol come running frantically to the scene....but I digress ).

So, Khan sets course for Regula I spacelab He cannot access any information to Project: Genesis. It was information that was likely not needed aboard Reliant...or to be accessed via subspace via Reliant's command contingent. He figures the only way to get that information was to go there himself and prise it from the build team. He comes away from the spacelab empty handed, not counting on the stalwart nature of the teammembers left behind to protect Drs. Marcus' whereabouts and/or involvement. He had tortured the stragglers to death. Then he had to get back to Reliant to blow Kirk to bits, knowing full well that Kirk must be on his way by now. (Or Mr. Kyle informed him that the Enterprise had been dispatched, under the command of Kirk)

Khan, in the attack on the Enterprise, presses Kirk for the information. Kirk feigns ignorance, which Khan doesn't buy for a moment. Kirk stalls for time and routs Khan, just barely. Khan, once again comes away, twice as empty handed. No info on Genesis, and no revenge on Kirk.

In time, he pursues Kirk to the only logical place for him to go....Regula I. In his sagacity, he left Terrell and Chekov behind at the spacelab, in case Kirk got past Khan, to carry out the final revenge, should Khan not be able to make it.

Khan arrives, by happy accident, at the right time to listen in as Terrell broadcasts their location to Khan, and confirms that they are in the presence of the Genesis device. After a bit of mayhem, and some prodding by Kirk, Khan has the device beamed aboard, still none the more intelligent about its true purposes. During the time when we see Kirk, McCoy, Carol, Saavik, Chekov, and David have their pow wows and revelations inside the Regula moon, Khan has probably had time to at least look over the device, and if he used theoretcial tech application to divine anything about the device, he discovers it is some kind of delayed explosive, possibly of an incalculable (to him, anyway) order of magnitude, if it's meant for purposes he vaguely gleaned from Reliant's crew. By it's looks, it could be deployed as a torpedo, a mine, or a planted bomb. Banking on the notion that it is a high order explosive, he keeps it as his "ace in the hole" against Kirk, if he cannot destroy Kirk by conventional means, and is probably about to near mortality himself.

In summation, I really don't think Khan knew Genesis' full potential. He gave up his plans on conquest when he lost those nearest and dearest to him...namely his wife, and devoted his life solely to revenge against James T. Kirk. He didn't care who stood in his way. He didn't care how he did it, or what he had to use to do it.

Personal opinions only. And remember, they are ONLY opinions.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

With respect to all, Khan obviously did not know what Genesis' true function was...save for whatever information he could pry from Chekov, Terrell, and other knowlegeable members of Reliant's crew.

...and Carol and David's team. The were THE source for information about the project, so there's no reason why Khan--as revealed by Terrel--tortured them unless he wanted specific information. That information was not about Kirk, since the Genesis team would not know anything about Kirk's whereabouts, and he already used Chekov--in part--for that reason. That leaves his motivation being information about the Genesis technology as the only reason to torture the team.

Further, he beamed the device aboard the Reliant--why? He was not using it as a weapon when he first learned of the technology, and he was clearly in the process of using Reliant as the means to destroy Kirk (until the very last seconds of his life), so one can only conclude he stole the device for its terraforming properties.

After Ceti Alpha's ravaged state, an allegedly "perfect" world would be astoundingly appealing to Khan and his people--unlike Kruge, who mocked such a pleasant "lifestyle" notion, and only viewed the device as a weapon.

Khan simply banks on the notion that Kirk will do what he must to protect crew, personnel, and assets, and would be more induced to see to the matter personally now that his name has been invoked. Khan doesn't realize, and I don't think he ever learns Kirk's relationship to the project leaders. (Certainly Kirk didn't realize his full relationship to the male project leader until he subdued David, and laid eyes on him, then hearing Carol come running frantically to the scene....but I digress ).

That's sort of a stretch: Khan would not know how Kirk would respond after their initial space fight; for all anyone knew, Kirk would attempt to contact the closest Starfleet vessel for support, or vacate the area to protect a crew of (surviving) trainees. His interest in Genesis was born of a direct interest, which had nothing to do with using it as part of his revenge against Kirk.

During the time when we see Kirk, McCoy, Carol, Saavik, Chekov, and David have their pow wows and revelations inside the Regula moon, Khan has probably had time to at least look over the device, and if he used theoretcial tech application to divine anything about the device, he discovers it is some kind of delayed explosive, possibly of an incalculable (to him, anyway) order of magnitude, if it's meant for purposes he vaguely gleaned from Reliant's crew. By it's looks, it could be deployed as a torpedo, a mine, or a planted bomb. Banking on the notion that it is a high order explosive, he keeps it as his "ace in the hole" against Kirk, if he cannot destroy Kirk by conventional means, and is probably about to near mortality himself.

Except that on screen, Khan did not steal the device for that reason, and only used it when mortally wounded. Until those last minutes, Khan was very secure in the idea that he was going to destroy Kirk in a ship to ship battle--from the vessels' first meeting, right up to the last minutes of the battle in the nebula. Ask yourself this: if Khan was not dying, and somehow managed to pilot the limping Reliant to anywhere other than Kirk's notice, what would he do with the device?

He's not a Klingon--who would launch it at a world to either test its alleged destructive capabilities, or as a conscious attack against an enemy, so what would a free, post-Kirk/revenge Khan do with the device?

The only rational conclusion is that he would use as intended.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Further, he beamed the device aboard the Reliant--why? He was not using it as a weapon when he first learned of the technology, and he was clearly in the process of using Reliant as the means to destroy Kirk (until the very last seconds of his life), so one can only conclude he stole the device for its terraforming properties.

...
Except that on screen, Khan did not steal the device for that reason, and only used it when mortally wounded. Until those last minutes, Khan was very secure in the idea that he was going to destroy Kirk in a ship to ship battle--from the vessels' first meeting, right up to the last minutes of the battle in the nebula.

You've made the counterpoint to your own argument. Khan had a device that could destroy an entire planet. Why would he ever consider using it to destroy the Enterprise? Yes, he was convinced he could get rid of Kirk with the Reliant, and that's what he was doing. Step 1: destroy Kirk. Step 2: use Genesis Device to wage war / dominate / destroy.

In truth, Khan was doomed from the get-go. Even if he succeeded in only using the device for terraforming some moon off in the middle of nowhere, to live his life out peacefully, Starfleet would have been on him as soon as he could say "Revenge." (and he'd never be able to defend himself).