Best/Favorite Robert Holmes Serial - Rank & Rate

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Well, we all know that one of OldWho's most prolific, and undeniably most important writers in not only OldWho but the whole of Doctor Who in general, is Robert Holmes. He's written some of the show's best stories ever, including The Caves of Androzani, The Time Warrior and Pyramids of Mars.

He also wrote a few stinkers.

How would you rank/rate his stories overall? What would you say were his best stories? Which one was his worst? Or how many bad ones did he make? Was he a hack, as Steven Moffat and Paul Cornell allegedly said he was, once long ago?

Vote, and rank away!

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Here's my ranking - although I haven't seen The Krotons, The Space Pirates, The Sun Makers, The Ribos Operation and The Power of Kroll.

13.The Ultimate Foe
12.The Mysterious Planet
11.The Two Doctors
10.Carnival of Monsters
9. The Ark in Space
8. The Brain of Morbius
7. Terror of the Autons
6. Pyramids of Mars
5. The Deadly Assassin
4. The Time Warrior
3. Spearhead from Space
2. The Talons of Weng-Chiang
1. The Caves of Androzani

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I'm a huge fan of Robert Holmes, so it's no surprise that I would say that most of his stories are least very enjoyable if not fantastic:

Loved
1. The Talons of Weng-Chiang
2. Pyramids of Mars
3. The Caves of Androzani
4. The Brain of Morbius
5. The Deadly Assassin
6. The Sun Makers
7. Terror of the Autons
8. Carnival of Monsters
9. The Time Warrior
10. Spearhead from Space

Enjoyed
11. The Ribos Operation
12. The Two Doctors
13. The Ark in Space

Disliked
14. The Krotons
15. The Space Pirates (based on existing episode and fan reconstruction)
16. The Power of Kroll
17. The Mysterious Planet
18. The Ultimate Foe (first episode)

At some point, I want to rewatch The Krotons, The Space Pirates and The Power of Kroll because I don't think I've been giving them a fair shake.

Between Holmes and Philip Hinchcliffe, it's no surprise the middle years of Tom Baker are my favorite of the show.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Yeah, the Hinchcliffe-Holmes era might just be the best time of the show. Certainly its most consistent, in terms of look and quality of stories.

That said, I do wonder if The Ultimate Foe would've fared better as an overall story with Eric Saward's treatment of the second episode, which was apparently based on a lot of notes by Holmes himself.

 

[kirk55555]

Liked A lot

1. Spearhead from Space
2. The Talons of Weng-Chiang
3. The Two Doctors
4. The Ark in Space
5. The Caves of Androzani
6. Terror of the Autons

OK
7. The Brain of Morbius
8. Pyramids of Mars
9. The Ultimate Foe (first episode)
10. The Mysterious Planet

Meh
11. The Deadly Assassin

Bad
12. The Sun Makers

 

[sidious618]

The Caves of Androzani by a mile. Probably the original series' best episode although I can hear an argument for The Greatest Show in the Galaxy or Remembrance of the Daleks.

 

[kirk55555]

I wonder if The Caves of Androzani has more of an impact if you're familiar with the 5th Doctor. It was only the second 5th Doctor story I'd ever seen (after The Five Doctors, and I actually haven't seen any 5th stories since then), and while I definitely liked it, I wouldn't call it spectacular or anything. It was very good, but I don't quite get the hype, which as I said might come down to me never having connected to the 5th Doctor. As it is, I thought it was a well done and entertaining story, but a bit over hyped.

 

[Green Lantern]

Androzani, definitely. Two Doctors is a close second.

 

[Doctorwhovian]

Funny thing about the Fifth Doctor in Androzani, he seems a bit less vulnerable than his usual self, more kind of" Doctorish" in his quips and attitude than before. Also a bit more arrogant (such as the "raving egotist" line) and authorative. He's also a bit annoyed by Peri at times (Such as the celery line) although not to the same levels as his sucessor. Granted the whole season (apart from Twin Dillema) was Davison's darkest and most violent, sort of foreshadowing what was to come during Colin Baker's first season(Trial Of A Time Lord on the other hand sort of watered things down a lot).

 

[DWF]

I went with Talons, Caves and The Deadly Assassin, in both both Caves and Assassin the Doctor was pushed harder than normal and it showed. All three stories show Holmes' aparent love for The Phantom Of The Opera as they have elements from it. The Dealy Assassin also wrote or rewrote much of Doctor Who's mythology, the vast majority of the infomation we have about the Time Lords came from that story. And it really only the story without a companion.

 

[VDCNI]

Funny thing about the Fifth Doctor in Androzani, he seems a bit less vulnerable than his usual self, more kind of" Doctorish" in his quips and attitude than before. Also a bit more arrogant (such as the "raving egotist" line) and authorative. He's also a bit annoyed by Peri at times (Such as the celery line) although not to the same levels as his sucessor. Granted the whole season (apart from Twin Dillema) was Davison's darkest and most violent, sort of foreshadowing what was to come during Colin Baker's first season(Trial Of A Time Lord on the other hand sort of watered things down a lot).

Didn't Holmes say he had never really watched Davison and just wrote for Tom Baker in Caves.

 

[VDCNI]

Talons is top for me followed by The Sunmakers, Spearhead & The Ribos Operation.

Space Pirates is probably the weakest

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Been watching the Key to Time season for the first time, and I've just finished Power of Kroll in fact. So, I thought I'd revamp my list a little - still haven't seen The Krotons, though:

17.The Space Pirates
16.The Ultimate Foe
15.The Mysterious Planet
14.The Two Doctors
13.Carnival of Monsters
12.The Sun Makers
11.The Power of Kroll
10.The Ribos Operation
9. The Ark in Space
8. The Brain of Morbius
7. Terror of the Autons
6. The Deadly Assassin
5. Pyramids of Mars
4. Spearhead from Space
3. The Time Warrior
2. The Talons of Weng-Chiang
1. The Caves of Androzani

 

[Allyn Gibson]

That said, I do wonder if The Ultimate Foe would've fared better as an overall story with Eric Saward's treatment of the second episode, which was apparently based on a lot of notes by Holmes himself.

Possibly. It's a very different story than what Pip & Jane Baker cobbled together, since all JNT could tell them was the characters and locations they had to work with. The Bakers' script has a definite resolution to the trial and defeat of the Valeyard, while Saward's story ends with the Doctor and the Valeyard trapped for eternity in a Time Vent.

You can read Saward's script here.

Didn't Holmes say he had never really watched Davison and just wrote for Tom Baker in Caves.

It's been widely reported that he said that, yes. And also that he wrote Peri like Sarah Jane.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Possibly. It's a very different story than what Pip & Jane Baker cobbled together, since all JNT could tell them was the characters and locations they had to work with. The Bakers' script has a definite resolution to the trial and defeat of the Valeyard, while Saward's story ends with the Doctor and the Valeyard trapped for eternity in a Time Vent.

You can read Saward's script here.

I've read it since then. Overall, I admittedly prefer the Pip & Jane draft better, but the dialogue in Seward's is better.

That said, the Valeyard parts in his TARDIS made all the difference, and in my mind, they still occured. Seeing as how the Time Lords, in essence, invalidated his "contract", he saw fit to blow them up with the... er... modem.

Anyway, I also made a thread a while back, about the two drafts, comparing them. Click here.

It's been widely reported that he said that, yes. And also that he wrote Peri like Sarah Jane.

Really? Wow. So the Fourth Doctor's exit would've bee so much better than Logopolis?

I already thought he should've written the latter back in the day (I mean, it'd only be fitting, right?) but... after this, I'm certain! That said, there are a few moments that stand as distinctly Fifth Doctor moments, like his standing up to shield Peri from Jarek or his arduous journey from end of episode 3 to opening of 4.

Did he write The Two Doctors in a similar mindset, btw? Any source on that - or, for that matter, the previous statement?

 

[DWF]

Possibly. It's a very different story than what Pip & Jane Baker cobbled together, since all JNT could tell them was the characters and locations they had to work with. The Bakers' script has a definite resolution to the trial and defeat of the Valeyard, while Saward's story ends with the Doctor and the Valeyard trapped for eternity in a Time Vent.

You can read Saward's script here.

I've read it since then. Overall, I admittedly prefer the Pip & Jane draft better, but the dialogue in Seward's is better.

That said, the Valeyard parts in his TARDIS made all the difference, and in my mind, they still occured. Seeing as how the Time Lords, in essence, invalidated his "contract", he saw fit to blow them up with the... er... modem.

The Time Lords didn't invalidate his contract, he was going to kill the court in the end not the High Council. How any of that meant him getting the Doctor's remaining lives makes no sense. And in any event, I'm sure Saward was only trying to finish Holmes' plotline, it was JNT who raises a fuss, Saward left and the Baker's were hired to finish the storyline. It was the Bakers who came up with the Dickens' ending to the story. The ending of the story IMO still makes no sense.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I'm just saying, I like to think the Saward-written Valeyard scenes occured, with slight alterations to fit the Baker's script.

Both scripts' endings don't make sense. I mean, in Saward's draft the Doctor is implied to die? Then how could he have met Mel?

 

[Timewalker]

I wonder if The Caves of Androzani has more of an impact if you're familiar with the 5th Doctor. It was only the second 5th Doctor story I'd ever seen (after The Five Doctors, and I actually haven't seen any 5th stories since then), and while I definitely liked it, I wouldn't call it spectacular or anything. It was very good, but I don't quite get the hype, which as I said might come down to me never having connected to the 5th Doctor. As it is, I thought it was a well done and entertaining story, but a bit over hyped.

Well, it's a regeneration story, for starters. Those tend to be among the most remembered. And this was just a plain damn good story. The ending is especially poignant, as the Doctor sacrifices himself for his Companion (first time he ever did that), and we see that he still feels guilt for Adric's death.

It's also the only one on the list for which my opinion is among the popular choices.

 

[DWF]

I'm just saying, I like to think the Saward-written Valeyard scenes occured, with slight alterations to fit the Baker's script.

Both scripts' endings don't make sense. I mean, in Saward's draft the Doctor is implied to die? Then how could he have met Mel?

The Baker's script had the Dickens' styled Fantasy Factor, originally it was meant as Jack The Ripper styled setting.

The new season finale was commissioned on June 6th. The Bakers delivered their version of the storyline three days later, followed within the week by the completed script. Nathan-Turner acted as the script editor; he also made some changes to the preceding episode, such as the description of the Valeyard as being an amalgamation of the Doctor's evil impulses from his own future, rather than his final incarnation. The time vent was replaced by the particle disseminator, and instead of the Valeyard being a weak man masquerading as JJ Chambers, he was now a much stronger figure masquerading as Mr Popplewick. The Master played a more overtly villainous role, as opposed to the almost antiheroic portrayal planned by Holmes and Saward, while the role of the Keeper of the Matrix was significantly reduced (much to the disappointment of actor James Bree).

Unfortunately, Nathan-Turner was now having misgivings about the downbeat ending, which had been inspired by the 1893 short story The Final Problem, in which Arthur Conan Doyle attempted to kill off both Sherlock Holmes and his arch-nemesis Professor Moriarty in a fall over the Reichenbach Falls. Nathan-Turner was concerned that this would provide the BBC with a tailor-made scenario to cancel Doctor Who, and that the viewers who followed the season for fourteen weeks were owed a genuine conclusion to the story. He also disliked the notion of the Valeyard being an evil future Doctor, since this could be seen as “wasting” one of the Doctor's lives. And Nathan-Turner now wanted to reveal that Peri, who was seemingly killed off at the end of The Trial Of A Time Lord (Segment Two), was alive after all.

 

[kirk55555]

Well, it's a regeneration story, for starters. Those tend to be among the most remembered. And this was just a plain damn good story. The ending is especially poignant, as the Doctor sacrifices himself for his Companion (first time he ever did that), and we see that he still feels guilt for Adric's death.

It's also the only one on the list for which my opinion is among the popular choices.

Talking about The Doctor sacrificing himself, by the time I saw Androzani, I'd already seen the 9th and 10th Doctors sacrifice themselves for companions/friends, so it seemed like a normal thing for The Doctor to do.