I agree. there is a good chance that the deep seated hatred every patriotic Bajoran had for the Cardassians in general would have expressed itself there.
DS9's Bajoran name
- Thread starter Hando
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I agree. there is a good chance that the deep seated hatred every patriotic Bajoran had for the Cardassians in general would have expressed itself there.
...Although classic patriotism might be a rare thing in Bajorans, if the planet wasn't much interested in interaction with others prior to the Cardassian invasion. It could be more like an Earthlings vs. Martians mentality, with the Bajorans suddenly being forced to accept that they aren't alone and aren't the pinnacle of Creation. Not that they wouldn't have known that intellectually already, but an occupation would really challenge their worldviews.
Yet supposedly, the original invasion had been a soft one, with plenty of Bajorans liking the Cardassians enough to invite them in. And there's that suggestion that the two species share common roots or at least a joint past, slightly expanded upon in the novels. Hating the Cardassians may have been far from universal even during the occupation, as we have no real idea of the extent of oppression, or the fates of people falling between hunted guerrillas and rewarded collaborators in status. And in any case, scientists working in Cardassian laboratories might have been closer to the latter end of the scale.
For all we know, the hinted-at common roots might even manifest in the two languages. (Does Bajor have more than one language? It would be a bit odd for such an ancient culture to still have several, but then again, we see several very different village cultures in the early seasons.)
Timo Saloniemi
Yet supposedly, the original invasion had been a soft one, with plenty of Bajorans liking the Cardassians enough to invite them in. And there's that suggestion that the two species share common roots or at least a joint past, slightly expanded upon in the novels. Hating the Cardassians may have been far from universal even during the occupation, as we have no real idea of the extent of oppression, or the fates of people falling between hunted guerrillas and rewarded collaborators in status. And in any case, scientists working in Cardassian laboratories might have been closer to the latter end of the scale.
For all we know, the hinted-at common roots might even manifest in the two languages. (Does Bajor have more than one language? It would be a bit odd for such an ancient culture to still have several, but then again, we see several very different village cultures in the early seasons.)
Timo Saloniemi
Personally, I have a hard time imagining an entire planet with only one language. No matter how ancient its culture might be. For one thing, vernaculars appear spontaneously all the time, even in purported monolingual cultures. I read that in New York alone there are like two dozens of dialects, all based partly on American English.
False. Auschitz had been at the time, for centuries been one of those places where German and Poles lived and both Auschwitz and Oświęcim had been in daily use (in fact Auschwitz just being a adaption of Oświęcim rather than a completely new name). And when we today talk about Auschwitz we tend to mean the Concentration Camp rather than the town of Oświęcim. The camp was founded by the Nazis and never had a different name than Auschwitz.
Terok Nor was built by the Cardassians and never had a different name than Terok Nor until it became DS9.
People don't just sit around and think of new names for places in their own language. Most of the time it either has historical reasons. The German city of Koeln, for instance is Cologne in French and English. Originally it was Latin "Colonia", centuries of illiteracy and people of different countries not talking much to one another except in war, were necessary to change its name into the different forms.
Or it has political reasons i.e. The Ancient Greeks, Romans,Chinese thought of themselves as the only "real" civilizations and gave all of their "discoveries" their own names or the renaming of cities in Zimbabwe in an attempt to wipe away the colonial history.
Since Terok Nor was already renamed out of political reasons (into DS9) there was virtually no reason for the Bajorans to come up with a new name. They might eventually have if the Federation hadn't started to administer the station.
The Bajoran civilization was already too literate and Terok Nor not old enough for an organic/accidential evolution of the name.
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Technically, its original name was Colonia Agrippina, and early literature referred to it in short as Agrippina. I'm not sure what illiteracy had to do with it, but the different spellings and pronunciations reflect natural linguistic drift. Kölsche was slightly under the influence of Southern Dutch, making it less precise, less clipped, than standard German. Up until 1900, the people called it either Cöln or, in dialect, Cölle. It was only because of German linguistic reforms that the people accepted the K spelling.
But to the bigger point, yes, it is another example of a placename being mutated rather than being replaced.
Yet, Bajorans have an almost fanatic attachment to their native language, for instance from the start they insist that Sisko does his blessings in Bajoran in spite of the fact that he can Barely speak the language. That seems contradictory to the fact that they wouldn't come up with a Bajoran version of each and every significant word. I know that in France and even more so in Quebec they have a French version of every anglicism that most people use in most countries. One would think that the Bajorans as a formerly oppressed culture would be very much like that.
In what episode did that happen?
In Accession it is shown as being well established. The Vedek compliments him on his progress, eliciting a grimace from Sisko. He was visibly forced into this.
Nowhere in the at scene does anyone insist that Sisko speak in Bajoran, nor is there a reference to such an insistence having been made. We see Kira making a request to give a Bajoran blessing. We see Sisko express fatigue at being revered religiously. Porta's quip was just a light aside and a small bit of encouragement, containing no request of any kind.
OTOH, we see Sisko reading Bajoran religious texts of his own volition in Destiny. Arguably, he recognizes the utility of being familiar with the Bajoran language, which would make sense as his superiors expected him to prepare Bajor for Federation membership.
Yes, and Sisko's effort to teach himself a language he has visible difficulties in mastering, not to mention a reluctance to learn (when Dax asks if he remembers it, his response is: "I think so", not exactly that of an enthusiastic student) wouldn't make much sense, if they weren't due to the Bajorans insisting that he told these blessings in Bajoran and not in UT Esperanto. Thanks for helping me establish that. Keep up the good work.
There's also the interesting issue of whether the UT can cope at all with written text. Somehow, our heroes tend to be fluent in alien computer displays of all sorts - but ancient scrolls?
There's also the bit from "Necessary Evil" where Rom is asked to recall a list of Bajoran names supposedly written in the Bajoran language by Bajorans, for Bajorans. He recalls that one name begins with the letter C and ends with the letter O, and there's an apostrophe in the name. So apparently Rom is seeing the name in English! (Or at least in Latin alphabet.) Or, more probably, the UT helps out, allowing Rom's claim that the name starts with the Bajoran letter Tsund to be translated to how the name would start if transliterated into English...
Timo Saloniemi
There's also the bit from "Necessary Evil" where Rom is asked to recall a list of Bajoran names supposedly written in the Bajoran language by Bajorans, for Bajorans. He recalls that one name begins with the letter C and ends with the letter O, and there's an apostrophe in the name. So apparently Rom is seeing the name in English! (Or at least in Latin alphabet.) Or, more probably, the UT helps out, allowing Rom's claim that the name starts with the Bajoran letter Tsund to be translated to how the name would start if transliterated into English...
Timo Saloniemi
You assume way too much.
Only because you disagree with my conclusions.
Indeed, why would Sisko speak in Bajoran with great difficulty if not for the reasons suggested by kirkfan?
Yet once again we run into difficulty trying to understand the nature of the UT. Isn't Sisko's hard work wasted on Bajorans who supposedly have their own UTs installed and running? How can they tell what language Sisko "really" is speaking?
Or do Bajorans turn off their UTs for religious ceremonies? Are they too poor to have UTs, and Sisko's own equipment does all the work usually? How does the damned thing work in the first place?
The introduction of the UT is a necessary concept for making Star Trek work. But once that's done, there should be no more discussion of "languages", as those would become an antiquated concept and die out in short order...
Timo Saloniemi
Yet once again we run into difficulty trying to understand the nature of the UT. Isn't Sisko's hard work wasted on Bajorans who supposedly have their own UTs installed and running? How can they tell what language Sisko "really" is speaking?
Or do Bajorans turn off their UTs for religious ceremonies? Are they too poor to have UTs, and Sisko's own equipment does all the work usually? How does the damned thing work in the first place?
The introduction of the UT is a necessary concept for making Star Trek work. But once that's done, there should be no more discussion of "languages", as those would become an antiquated concept and die out in short order...
Timo Saloniemi
We also hear Kira speak Bajoran, so what is the language that she's speaking in when the UT translates it to English for I guess our benefit? English? Earthese? (the language of the people of Earh) Alpha Quadrant Esperanto? It's a mystery.
Let's make something very clear: we never hear anyone speak Bajoran. All the recorded instances are of individuals reciting liturgical texts, a specialized usage of the Bajoran language or of any language. Such usages have highly dramaticized presentations and special terms and phrases that don't often come up in daily converstation. Judging someone's ability to speak Latin, Hebrew or Arabic when they have, say, filled in for a cantor or muezzin would be silly. It says nothing of their abiltiy to have a normal conversation: "how's the weather?," "your eyes are lovely," "Morn drank me under the table."
And no one ever says Sisko speaks with "great difficulty." That seems to be inferred from "getting better." And Sisko literally--that is to say with his own words--tells us the basis for his discomfort in this scene: because he feels uncomfortable being revered. Now, Sisko does later say that he feels relieved he won't have to perform anymore blessings, but that would be a dick move: as the military leader of the station, might not people still ask him to perform marriages? Would he really say, "ok, but only in a language that the UT translates for me?" And at least one bit of evidence is irrefutable: he reads Bajoran of his own free will. No one puts it upon him to do so.
That's not exactly accurate. In Poland, where Auschwitz is, many Poles call it by its Polish name, Oświęcim. Then again, many don't, and use Auschwitz as the camp's name, while Oświęcim for the town - but not everyone.
The difference is that Oświęcim was there before the German occupation of Poland, Terok Nor was not there before Cardassian occupation of Bajor.
Umm, why would military leaders perform marriages? Sisko does it because he's the Emissary.
Kirk and Picard and IIRC Janeway did it, too, but that's a Starfleet quirk, not something found in the real world and not something we would expect of the various alien militaries of Star Trek.
Nothing "irrefutable" about that. The word would mean it would not be possible to dig up or postulate a refute. It is certainly possible to postulate one here! I.e. nobody says Sisko is doing it of his own free will, let alone anybody we should trust for his or her word.
Or Vulcan, for that matter. We can always dodge and weave, and say that all the gibberish from the TOS movies was ancient Vulcan ceremonial phrases the pointy-ears only knew by rote (with "insert-name-here" practical application wherever appropriate: "Your destiny lies elsewhere, <Spock>").
But it certainly doesn't follow that an opera singer doing fluent German on stage would not know any German. We can't tell one way or another what sort of lingo Sisko is making use of here. So we're quite free to speculate.
Timo Saloniemi
Kirk performs a marriage ceremony in TOS.
