Another take on "there's no money in the 24th century"

[T'Girl]

without scarcity

what large populations are in a post-scarcity existence today

I didn't say "post scarcity."

In the Western world and increasingly in other parts of the world too, large numbers people do live without scarcity and in conditions of abundance, However, although they possess abundance, the abundance doesn't suddenly become "free."

Water has a cost in being treated and processed, as would any resource, but costs like that would basically disappear to the average federation citizen.

I don't think so. There are multiple possibilities, you pay taxes and the cost of the water comes from that. You pay directly for the water delivered to your residence or business (that my deal), there's a future total recycling system build into your building the renders what goes down your drain back into potable water, but this system would have a acquisition price, plus maintenance and operation costs.

Or you could replicate water.

It would fall within a generous personal resource allocation, or something like that.

But the expense of that "allocation" has to come from somewhere or someone, even if it isn't you.

 

[Stoo]

[

In the Western world and increasingly in other parts of the world too, large numbers people do live without scarcity and in conditions of abundance, However, although they possess abundance, the abundance doesn't suddenly become "free."

I don't understand what distinction you're making between post-scarcity and without scarcity, but anyway given that stuff like energy, fuel and materials are limited in supply, I don't see how either term would apply to even western society.

re: water, my point was, in ponderign how the post-money economy comes about, maybe utilities basically become super-cheap and provided by the state, without the average person really noticing the details.

There must still be some sort of resource allocation going on - again, not everyone can have their own starship - it just operates at the sort of level where the everyday necessities of life are easily met.

[edit]I'm again also thinking that there are societal changes as well as technological ones. The ethos of "work to live" has been ditched by the 24th century, taking with it the idea of earning your water. I mean, people are starting to put forward similar ideas even today, with concept of a no-conditions living wage for all, which is very radical thinking but eh, maybe changing times will require new ideas about how an economy should workk

 

[Shawnster]

there's a future total recycling system build into your building the renders what goes down your drain back into potable water, but this system would have a acquisition price, plus maintenance and operation costs.

Such a system would need constant input/topping off from an outside source. What goes down the drain is not 100% of what goes into a body.

 

[T'Girl]

^ I would agree, even if the system could remove all organic materials (and anything else) you would still lose fluids over time.

 

[Shawnster]

Especially since you don't spend your entire life in one single location.

 

[T'Girl]

I don't understand what distinction you're making between post-scarcity and without scarcity

The point I was making was just because the things in your society are abundant doesn't result in them being free, there's still a economic system that includes money.

There must still be some sort of resource allocation going on ...

No, while that might be one possibility among many, it isn't a given.

I do think there would be a minimal social safety net to assist people in times of financial crisis, but I don't think "the government" will simply provide everyone with housing, food, clothing, a monetary stipulation, etc.

The ethos of "work to live" has been ditched by the 24th century

Of the civilians we saw on the show, who wasn't working or attached to someone who was? Through their employment they would support themselves and their families, and not be supported by the state.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I don't understand what distinction you're making between post-scarcity and without scarcity

The point I was making was just because the things in your society are abundant doesn't result in them being free, there's still a economic system that includes money.

There must still be some sort of resource allocation going on ...

No, while that might be one possibility among many, it isn't a given.

I do think there would be a minimal social safety net to assist people in times of financial crisis, but I don't think "the government" will simply provide everyone with housing, food, clothing, a monetary stipulation, etc.

The ethos of "work to live" has been ditched by the 24th century

Of the civilians we saw on the show, who wasn't working or attached to someone who was? Through their employment they would support themselves and their families, and not be supported by the state.

If something is both abundant and don't require much work to produce then it can be free, unless you live in a society of thieves that would even make you pay for the air you breathe. That's not the kind of society we're supposed to have in the ST universe though.

 

[T'Girl]

That's not the kind of society we're supposed to have in the ST universe though.

I guess we all want to see a wonderful future full of our own hopes and dreams. I want to see a future with a independant citizery not dependant on the government for the very shirt on their backs.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Of the civilians we saw on the show, who wasn't working or attached to someone who was? Through their employment they would support themselves and their families, and not be supported by the state.

The Government had to have made that decision on behalf of the civilians, when they decided to go money-less.

If the replicators are provided and powered by the government, and are literally producing food, clothes, playthings and shelter free of charge, human society is literally an utopia and a little socialist/communist even.

Is that so bad?

When we think about solving poverty problems, we want to come up with a way to provide plenty for all.

If a machine like the replicator can literally do that, wouldn't getting rid of money and developing a program to distribute them to all civilians be the natural result?

How else can it happen?

Something like that appears to have happen in Trek history.

No more hunger, poverty, yearnings for basic needs--people are free to pursue interests without worrying about supporting themselves.

On the other hand, you are at the mercy of the government for the very food you eat-the rug could be pulled out at any time--so the idea goes, anyway.

Jake is perfectly OK as long he's on earth, or near a Federation type facility.

But the moment he leaves earth and has to interact in a society that uses money--any type of money, he's helpless, because the earth government hasn't provided him with any tools to trade money with.

Ralph Offenhouse might have freaked if he saw that example.
That's what Offenhouse wanted--control- to be able totake care of himself-- which makes sense when you think of that scene from "In the Cards".

 

[TheGoodNews]

re: water, my point was, in ponderign how the post-money economy comes about, maybe utilities basically become super-cheap and provided by the state, without the average person really noticing the details.

There must still be some sort of resource allocation going on - again, not everyone can have their own starship - it just operates at the sort of level where the everyday necessities of life are easily met.

[edit]I'm again also thinking that there are societal changes as well as technological ones. The ethos of "work to live" has been ditched by the 24th century, taking with it the idea of earning your water. I mean, people are starting to put forward similar ideas even today, with concept of a no-conditions living wage for all, which is very radical thinking but eh, maybe changing times will require new ideas about how an economy should workk

Remember, a post-money society doesn't require the absence of scarcity. It's a matter of organization and social perceptions. And I agree with you that it is definitely more than the technological changes that are at play here. Like that line in "The Neutral Zone" about t.v. no longer existing post-2040's. It could be looked at two ways; the advancement of holographic technology and/or a society of post-consumers who would pursue more meaningful ways to use their time.

The Price of Money by Cetian:

http://www.shoresofanarres.org/the-price-of-money/

"Money is a materialized form of social power. It is part of a system that hides the actual relations in our society, and deprives us of the possibility to rationally allocate resources through deliberate community decisions."

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I haven't read this entire thread but here is my take on the whole "no money" thing in Star Trek:

Firstly, I can't really imagine how a no money society would actually work. Makes no sense to me.

That said, does it really matter that I can't imagine how it would work. A hundred years ago, society couldn't imagine a woman in the voting booth.

What I can imagine is that money itself is divisive, reminding us of the social-economic divisions people have between each other. If we were to have a wholly new perspective on existence (like looking up to the stars and realizing that we are not alone) that could (not would, but could) change how we view ourselves, and the idea of using money to interact with others as we do today could be as passe as not allowing women to vote or a myriad of other things currently not in step today. Religion is a very divisive thing. I can;t imagine it going away entirely, but I can imagine a vision of humanity where it's no longer needed. Same with needing no money

It was a vision.. Roddenberry's view on humanity as a whole..


So while I can't imagine how it would work is largely irrelevant.. Roddenberry was making a grand statement about humanity

 

[T'Girl]

Jake is perfectly OK as long he's on earth, or near a Federation type facility.

The Humans don't have money, but everyone else in the Federation and galaxy does would explain Dax's ability to play dabo at Quark's bar.

The Trill have an economy that includes money, so Starfleet pays her and other Trills a salary, but not Picard.

Beverly was born off Earth (iirc the Moon) so she gets a salary too, that's what was in her account.

Deanna's father, regardless of where he was born, was married to a Betazed and therefor (maybe) also recieved a salary.

By not paying Humans from Earth, Starfleet is being culturally sensitive, and respectful of a members charming local ways.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Jake is perfectly OK as long he's on earth, or near a Federation type facility.

The Humans don't have money, but everyone else in the Federation and galaxy does would explain Dax's ability to play dabo at Quark's bar.

The Trill have an economy that includes money, so Starfleet pays her and other Trills a salary, but not Picard.

Beverly was born off Earth (iirc the Moon) so she gets a salary too, that's what was in her account.

Deanna's father, regardless of where he was born, was married to a Betazed and therefor (maybe) also recieved a salary.

By not paying Humans from Earth, Starfleet is being culturally sensitive, and respectful of a members charming local ways.

I think anybody who works gets money if he wants it. The thing is that that money is useless on Earth as they get everything there for free. When they go outside on other worlds, they need that money to "buy stuff" but if they plan to stay on Earth (like Picard's brother) then they have no use for that money.

 

[T'Girl]

Or, Robert Picard sells the family wine to Humans on Earth who do have money (off-world money?) as well as shipping it the rest of our solar system and into the interstellar market. Robert non-embracing of the whole "no-money" thing is a part of JeanLuc's disagreement with him.

Similarly, Joseph Sisko's restaurant is exclusive to those Humans (and aliens) who can afford to pay for a lovely meal at a premium establishment.

Without money the majority of Humans are force to consume the grull out of their replicators.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Or, Robert Picard sells the family wine to Humans on Earth who do have money (off-world money?) as well as shipping it the rest of our solar system and into the interstellar market. Robert non-embracing of the whole "no-money" thing is a part of JeanLuc's disagreement with him.

Similarly, Joseph Sisko's restaurant is exclusive to those Humans (and aliens) who can afford to pay for a lovely meal at a premium establishment.

Without money the majority of Humans are force to consume the grull out of their replicators.

There's no canon evidence of any of that, not even a shred of it. One would think that if you were right in your assumptions then someone, at some point, would have said something about it.

I can't be categorical about non-canon evidence because I don't read trek literature but if it existed I would find it... astounding.

 

[T'Girl]

There's no canon evidence of any of that, not even a shred of it.

There is the fact that Joseph's establishment is referred to as a "restaurant," a term that has a specific meaning in the English language.

One would think that if you were right in your assumptions then someone, at some point, would have said something about it.

Kirk said they didn't (use money) in one movie, but in another he said he had sold a house. Now sold is another one of those terms that has a specific meaning in the English language. Money on the other hand has a few meanings, I honestly believe that Kirk meant that what is used in the future couldn't have been used to purchase a pizza in the mid 1980's.

What Gillian pulled out of her purse to pay with, isn't used in the future.

I can't be categorical about non-canon evidence because I don't read trek literature but if it existed I would find it... astounding.

In the novel Crisis on Centuri (sp?) Kirk purchases a house in a remote small valley in the Alpha Centuri system, over the course of years through a lawyer he gradually buys the entire valley.

The novel says that Starship Captains get paid a good amount of money, and that was how Kirk was spending his.

 

[scotpens]

That said, does it really matter that I can't imagine how it would work. A hundred years ago, society couldn't imagine a woman in the voting booth.

Veering off-topic for a moment, but women voting was hardly a new or radical idea in 1915. Prior to the ratification of the 19th Amendment, most American women had at least some voting rights and women in 15 states had full voting rights.

Link

 

[TheGoodNews]

So while I can't imagine how it would work is largely irrelevant.. Roddenberry was making a grand statement about humanity

Shouldn't be too hard to imagine. Humanity has done without money for much of its existence using gift economies, credit systems and so forth. Even now moneyless transactions exist at macro and micro levels. Large corporations and governments still trade without using money. People engage in moneyless transactions in their daily lives.

It's just that under the current system people are obliged to work hard for long hours to earn wages that reflect only a fraction of the actual value they produced, just to make ends meet, while using some of their "free" time supporting that same system by buying things that are priced higher than they cost to make.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I agree there.. what I meant was that I can't say how a system would actually work without money.. meaning what day-to-day life be like, what people (who don't share the vision) do.

 

[Darkwing]

I'm sticking with the "no money = no paper bills/coins, it's all electronic" system.

It has the advantage of being supported by onscreen evidence, such as the frequent mentions of "Federation credits" and putting things on people's "accounts" and all that.

Though I would say that a lot of our bills today are covered by their technology. Bare minimum apartments are probably free. Replicated food is probably free, as is basic replicated clothing.
Pay is for luxuries, not necessities under this scheme. Picard probably gets paid equivalent to a minimum wage worker today, but without taxes and bills, he's making as much playing around money as a captain today makes.