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Creators of A.I. - 'God' Complex or Casting Convenience?

JD5000

JD5000

Captain
Captain
....or a little bit of both?

Examples are Data/Lore/B4 - Dr. Soong
The Doctor/Mark I EMH - Dr. Zimmerman

I've seen every episode at one point or another, but am not capable of magic instantaneous recall, so there may be other examples of this.

Is this concept Star Trek introduces of the creators of walking, talking artificial intelligences making their inventions in their own image a case of exploring humanity's inherent 'God Complex' (explored by contemporary psychologists such as Ernest Jones), or is it just cheaper and easier to cast the creators of these AIs as the same person....maybe a way to fill contractual screen time?

What does this say about the personalities of people like Soong and Zimmerman?

Any more in depth thoughts on either perspective, or other ways to interpret this?
 
There's an episode of The Twilight Zone from 1963 dealing with similar themes, so it's not a concept introduced by Star Trek. Its title is in line with your theory, but if I mention that title it gives away the ending of the episode. Sometimes multiple roles are simply important to the plot. If you want to play detective, the credited writer is Charles Beaumont, but those are the only clues I'll give.
 
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Dr. Soong was originally going to be played by Keye Luke, but he died shortly before production began on "Brothers." So having Brent Spiner play Soong was an afterthought, a plan B, rather than the inbuilt intention. After all, "Noonien Soong" is a Chinese name, and Brent Spiner does not look the tiniest bit Chinese.

Actually, though, the original intention according to the first edition of the TNG writers' bible was that Data would have an Asian or Pacific Islander appearance. But they also intended Data to be the creation of aliens, like his inspiration Questor from Roddenberry's The Questor Tapes pilot, with Noonien Soong not being conceived until "Datalore."

Although they didn't really stick to that intention in the casting process. They did consider a few Asian actors including John Lone, Kelvin Han Yee, and actress Kim Miyori, as well as Kevin Peter Hall, but many of their candidates were white -- Brent Spiner, Eric Menyuk, Mark Lindsay Chapman, Robert Englund. (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Performers_considered_for_Star_Trek_roles)
 
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That's some really interesting background info, Christopher. Thanks!

I usually chalk up incongruous sounding names to centuries of further cultural diaspora. I never gave Soong's name in relation to his character a second thought beyond that. Similar with Khan Noonien Singh. Montalban definitely had a 'look' that identified more closely with the ethnic implications of the name, but still not totally in line with modern associations of those names.

I'm sure I'm missing some background on Khan's name, but those are my impressions based on the knowledge I have. TOS-era isn't my best Trek subject.
 
JD5000 said:
Similar with Khan Noonien Singh. Montalban definitely had a 'look' that identified more closely with the ethnic implications of the name, but still not totally in line with modern associations of those names.

I'm sure I'm missing some background on Khan's name, but those are my impressions based on the knowledge I have.
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The ethnic implications of the name "Khan Noonien Singh" are all over the map, literally. Singh is the proper surname for a male Sikh, but Khan is generally a Muslim surname (rather than a given name) and Noonien, again, is a Chinese given name. The name is an artifact of the tendency of '60s American TV producers to treat everything between Egypt and the Philippines as a single interchangeable cultural jumble, all just part of the inscrutable Orient.

And Montalban's casting was part of another '60s tradition, casting North American actors as Asians and using makeup to change their complexions. Khan was a "brownface" role for Montalban in "Space Seed," although they let him use his normal complexion in TWOK.
 
"Khan" may be more like a title than a name, merely added to the superman's string of names in the fashion of Roman emperors adding definers like "Augustus" or "Caesar" to their names.

It's pretty natural for Noonien Soong to create the android in his rough image: he was a recluse, unwilling to go public with his invention until he could be 100% certain he wouldn't be laughed out of the court again. In his paranoia, he wouldn't even wish for anybody to model for his machine. Not even his wife, as an android in her shape would be his great surprise present...

Zimmerman might have been too busy to get a professional model for his earlier attempts, too. And the affair with Quark's discerning customer and Major Kira suggests it might be pretty darn difficult to obtain rights to a random bloke's likeness. Perhaps a databank of free likenesses doesn't exist, for one of those odd Federation cultural hangups reasons?

Timo Saloniemi
 
Seems sort of odd that right now, we can design faces for imaginary people with computers, clay, stone, bronze, etc., but holograms and androids nearly always seem to have to resemble real people.
 
JD5000 said:
....or a little bit of both?

Examples are Data/Lore/B4 - Dr. Soong
The Doctor/Mark I EMH - Dr. Zimmerman

I've seen every episode at one point or another, but am not capable of magic instantaneous recall, so there may be other examples of this.
Click to expand...

Does Dr. Daystrom fit the parameters here ("The Ultimate Computer")?

What about Flint ("Requiem for Methuselah")?
 
CC - I'll endeavor to rewatch those episodes tonight and give my personal perspective, memory fails. I have a bunch of extraneous non-canon stuff in my head regarding those two characters, I gotta comment with them fresh in my mind.
 
JD5000 said:
CC - I'll endeavor to rewatch those episodes tonight and give my personal perspective, memory fails. I have a bunch of extraneous non-canon stuff in my head regarding those two characters, I gotta comment with them fresh in my mind.
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OK, I can wait until you rewatch those before commenting. I have some thoughts.
 
Dr Zimmerman's motives are addressed in Life Line. Both he and Soong see their creations as their mark in history, like their children, so they wanted to make it in their own image to leave their personal brand on a moment in history.

That's why it was so traumatic for him when the mark ones were reassigned to mining, because it was the only model he was emotionally attached to as if his 'Child' and it wasn't even practicing medicine.
 
CorporalCaptain said:
JD5000 said:
....or a little bit of both?

Examples are Data/Lore/B4 - Dr. Soong
The Doctor/Mark I EMH - Dr. Zimmerman

I've seen every episode at one point or another, but am not capable of magic instantaneous recall, so there may be other examples of this.
Click to expand...

Does Dr. Daystrom fit the parameters here ("The Ultimate Computer")?

What about Flint ("Requiem for Methuselah")?
Click to expand...
Daystrom does since he gave M-5 his "mind". Flint on the other hand made Rayna a female. Created to be his equal and mate but not in his image.
 
^Maybe, but creating an AI to be your perfect mate or fantasy (e.g. Rayna or Andrea) is just as self-serving and egocentric in its way as creating one in your own image.

The one AI creator who avoided this, really, was Data himself, when he created Lal. He wanted a child, but he let his child choose her own sex and appearance. See also Roddenberry's The Questor Tapes pilot, wherein Questor started out with a generic appearance and selected his own facial features.
 
Adding Data's creation of Lal to the mix REALLY complicates things.

After just rewatching "The Ultimate Computer" I don't think Daystrom's imprint of his own engrams on M-5 qualifies. It's a little different than Soong's work, but not much different from Zimmerman's.... I would compare this to Dr. Farollan and her 'exo-comps' - machines created to replace human functions that develop an unexpected level of complexity.
 
Nerys Myk said:
Daystrom does since he gave M-5 his "mind".
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Christopher said:
^Maybe, but creating an AI to be your perfect mate or fantasy (e.g. Rayna or Andrea) is just as self-serving and egocentric in its way as creating one in your own image.
Click to expand...

These were my thoughts on Daystrom and Flint. In Daystrom's case, not only is he making a copy of himself, but also it seems self-evident to him that he would use his own engrams, which might be an indication of egotism. He also talks about starships being toys that he and the M-5 can crush. On the other hand, he tries to give the M-5 a moral compass, so it's a mixed message.

Both of the Daystrom and Flint examples break the mold on casting, though, so I thought I'd leave it to the OP to comment on whether it's in bounds of what he was talking about. Seems like a counterexample to me, though.

The only reason I didn't mention Corby, by the way, is because I'm not clear regarding when Andrea and Brown were created, before or after Corby was replaced by an android, and I'm not clear what the circumstances were regarding how the Exo III expedition came to be lost. Indications are that Corby was a good man before he went to Exo III, so it seems entirely possible that Corby's mad-scientist dreams, including the creation of Brown and Andrea, were only something hatched by Corby's android replacement, and not Corby himself.

:shrug:
 
Taking into account concepts that cross theological borders, a 'God's' creation of something in their own image wouldn't be 'perfect'....hence M-5s and Datas and Doctors.

Maybe?
 
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