TSFS -- Why Red Alert?

[Timo]

No doubt there are also nuances to these commands, so that "Battle stations!" is just a small subset of "Red alert!" and might have sufficed in that situation.

But Kirk must account for lapses of his memory or those of his crew more than ever here. If he only gave the "necessary" commands, he might fail to notice that the crewmen who would turn some of those commands into vital steps in battle readiness had been left ashore. A bit of "command overkill" would be in order, with as many tasks completed as possible.

Yet conversely, if Kirk just orders "Red alert!", each of his co-conspirators might settle for merely completing their own assigned tasks, leaving huge gaps in the readiness. Kirk has no XO for the mission - wouldn't he need to personally do a round of further commands to check whether somebody really threw the lever on auxiliary power and closed the pressure doors? Scotty is bearing an awfully big responsibility here with his automation. And indeed the heroes pay the price: Kirk is not sufficiently informed about the deficiencies in their readiness.

Why did the shields fail? Because they had been shot to hell in the previous movie and not completely repaired, and Scotty forgot to tell? Or because Scotty had been too busy to install automation for feeding auxiliary power to shields in case of primary fail, as would normally happen during crewed red alerts? Scotty's failure to speak out in the latter case would be much more understandable: the odds of something going wrong were there, but low, and perhaps best kept unmentioned in an already busy situation. In the former case of known shield disrepair, the odds of something going wrong in battle were exactly one out of one!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Well when a navy ship goes to general quarters doors. hatches and the like are closed and secured so if the ship is hit it hopefully limits things like flooding and fire from spreading causing the loss of the ship. Of course most is done by hand by members of the crew

I think it's logical to assume that when the Enterprise goes to red alert something similar happens to try and contain any battle damage, only I'm willing to bet in the 23rd century a lot more of it is automatically triggered by the red alert itself and not done manually by crew responding to the red alert.

In fact in TWOK you see a large door coming down from the ceiling in engineering after the Reliant first attacks. I'm assuming this door was to seal off the damaged part of engineering and that the door came down because red alert was triggered after the reliant fired.

So giving the order makes from s ship survival standpoint whether there are 5 or 1000 people on board. The red lights might just automatically turn on as well, or maybe it was done out of habit. Of course it was really done to ramp up the tension and atmosphere on the bridge.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In fact in TWOK you see a large door coming down from the ceiling in engineering after the Reliant first attacks. I'm assuming this door was to seal off the damaged part of engineering and that the door came down because red alert was triggered after the reliant fired.

The door cut the intermix chamber which disabled the warp drive, so the door did not come down just because a red alert was triggered. It came down because engineering had been damaged and it was no longer safe or possible to operate the drive.

 

[Timo]

The door remained down yet warp drive was restored at the end of the movie. Supposedly, a door designed to merely hold air pressure and keep radiative contamination from spreading might also be designed so that the warp core (or whatever) burns a hole in it once it is tightly in place, allowing operations to continue.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

The whole mess could have been avoided by using two pressure doors, one from each side which closed AROUND the plasma conduit instead of smashing THROUGH it!

 

[Timo]

...Or then the wall material is transparent to whatever travels in that fancy tube.

This assumes that the stuff traveling there isn't harmful in itself, of course, as the wall couldn't fight leaks of that stuff. But nobody ever claimed it was. The wall might be there to contain completely different kinds of leak.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[enterprisecvn65]

In fact in TWOK you see a large door coming down from the ceiling in engineering after the Reliant first attacks. I'm assuming this door was to seal off the damaged part of engineering and that the door came down because red alert was triggered after the reliant fired.

The door cut the intermix chamber which disabled the warp drive, so the door did not come down just because a red alert was triggered. It came down because engineering had been damaged and it was no longer safe or possible to operate the drive.

Hmmm interesting I didn't know that. Regardless though I'm sure that triggering red alert automatically air tightly seals off other doors, hatches and compartments throughout the ship. If you don't then one breach of the hull and eventually every part of the ship will lose atmosphere and be exposed to the vacuum of space. Just like if a warship isn't segmented then one torpedo hit will eventually let enough water in to flood the ship and cause it to sink.

 

[Mytran]

...Or then the wall material is transparent to whatever travels in that fancy tube.

This assumes that the stuff traveling there isn't harmful in itself, of course, as the wall couldn't fight leaks of that stuff. But nobody ever claimed it was. The wall might be there to contain completely different kinds of leak.

You are right of course, since SPACE AIR was leaking into the room and had to be stopped.

But seriously, since when has the glowy engine tube stuff ever been considered "safe"?

 

[cardinal biggles]

If it was safe, why would they all be standing around in radsuits, some of them with helmets?

 

[Timo]

Supposedly, it's the coolant that makes the environment dangerous... What it cools may be utterly benign!

Radsuits? What radsuits? We never hear of them being any good against radiation. Indeed, Spock sees no merit in donning one when going into a high radiation environment, whereas Scotty did not want to go to that very environment despite already wearing the suit. For all we know, those are just work coveralls with a built-in respirator system (with two optional ways of exploiting the sewn-in oxygen supply: breather mask and helmet) or simply a heating system (for working near that damned coolant, possibly in an environment that is constantly kept pretty cold).



Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In fact in TWOK you see a large door coming down from the ceiling in engineering after the Reliant first attacks. I'm assuming this door was to seal off the damaged part of engineering and that the door came down because red alert was triggered after the reliant fired.

The door cut the intermix chamber which disabled the warp drive, so the door did not come down just because a red alert was triggered. It came down because engineering had been damaged and it was no longer safe or possible to operate the drive.

Hmmm interesting I didn't know that. Regardless though I'm sure that triggering red alert automatically air tightly seals off other doors, hatches and compartments throughout the ship. If you don't then one breach of the hull and eventually every part of the ship will lose atmosphere and be exposed to the vacuum of space. Just like if a warship isn't segmented then one torpedo hit will eventually let enough water in to flood the ship and cause it to sink.

It wasn't apparent, and for that I apologize, but I thought that this aspect of your post was sound. That is to say, even if Star Trek hasn't observed that in canon (and at least most of the time it's not at all apparent that they are), it seems quite reasonable.

With respect to sealing off sections of the ship, the example of the main engineering doors on the refit Enterprise comes to mind. Not of the vertical emergency door in TWOK we were discussing, but the doors into main engineering from the corridor. And I'm not thinking of the combat situation in TWOK after the ship has been hit when they or similar doors are seen closing too, but rather in TMP after the ship has launched when they are getting ready to fire the impulse engines for the first time. It's just a nice little touch that the doors slowly close to seal off engineering from the rest of the ship. You can see the scene on this page and on this page. There's a crewman who squeezes through at the last second. It's also not an alert condition.

 

[Timo]

Also, it has been speculated that the curious A-framed doorways on Kirk's TOS vessel were for pressure doors with two swing-down halves for that no-effort, idiot-proof, surefire closing in cases of damage and power loss. Babylon 5 did such doors, too; both shows featured a reliable source of artificial gravity for deploying the doors, even if the sources were completely dissimilar.

Yet these doors are never found closed in TOS, even during alerts. Nor are any other doors "sealed": a hero gets them to open merely by approaching them, just as happens outside alerts.

Preemptive compartmentalizing probably isn't standard procedure after all. But emergency compartmentalizing certainly is catered for; it is turned against our heroes e.g. in TOS "Day of the Dove".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But emergency compartmentalizing certainly is catered for; it is turned against our heroes e.g. in TOS "Day of the Dove".

Quite so:

UHURA: Captain, reports coming in from the lower decks. Emergency bulkheads have closed. Almost four hundred crewmen are trapped down there, sir.

 

[Timo]

...Although whether this really happened, or was planted in the minds of our heroes, we don't know. If Chekov can believe in nonexistent brothers, the crew might suddenly start believing in nonexistent pressure doors!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

 

[Ithekro]

The tech writers and ship designers seem to add a lot of safety systems and design protocols to deal with things that you would expect to be a problem for a starship after seeing what happened in the Five Year Mission.

The story writers and directors more or less throw these out or make sure they break to get them a free hand in drama and plot direction. The Enterprise, as described in Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, is a much safer ship than the Galaxy-class USS Enterprise, and has in some ways, better features, or features that are nearly as advanced. Security is also seeming much better that what we'd see happen in TNG or even some later TOS films.

 

[FormerLurker]

In fact in TWOK you see a large door coming down from the ceiling in engineering after the Reliant first attacks. I'm assuming this door was to seal off the damaged part of engineering and that the door came down because red alert was triggered after the reliant fired.

The door cut the intermix chamber which disabled the warp drive, so the door did not come down just because a red alert was triggered. It came down because engineering had been damaged and it was no longer safe or possible to operate the drive.

The door remained down yet warp drive was restored at the end of the movie. Supposedly, a door designed to merely hold air pressure and keep radiative contamination from spreading might also be designed so that the warp core (or whatever) burns a hole in it once it is tightly in place, allowing operations to continue.

Timo Saloniemi

The whole mess could have been avoided by using two pressure doors, one from each side which closed AROUND the plasma conduit instead of smashing THROUGH it!

...Or then the wall material is transparent to whatever travels in that fancy tube.

This assumes that the stuff traveling there isn't harmful in itself, of course, as the wall couldn't fight leaks of that stuff. But nobody ever claimed it was. The wall might be there to contain completely different kinds of leak.

Timo Saloniemi

If one watches the overhead door descend, one sees a center section to it aligned with the plasma conduit, made of a material that looks suspiciously transparent to energy flow. Methinks it was meant to allow warp usage to continue while protecting the crew from coolant leaks/radiation leaks/being sucked into space.

 

[Mytran]

Yeah, I've seen that section of the panel too and wondered the same. I also have to wonder what complicated method of plasma transfer tubes are present on the horizontal engine conduit - not only would it have to permit the flow of "warp fuel" during normal operations but it would have to allow the passage of a solid object (the transparent panel only occupies a portion of the door). It's possible, but would require retractable conduits and would make that whole section weaker and susceptible to mechanical failure during an emergency. If it were me, I'd make that whole horizontal tube a single, near-indestructible unit and utilise a pair of sideways isolation doors instead.

But, that wouldn't make for such a visually exciting scene.

 

[Maurice]

Perhaps Red Alert is the equivalent of the Navy's Condition ZEBRA and Yellow is Condition YOKE, and seting either sets the ship to automatically seal certain fittings/hatches/whatnot.

MATERIAL CONDITION OF READINESS​

In order to use compartmentation to its fullest advantage and to provide maximum preparedness, all the doors, hatches scuttles access valve and fittings of damage control valves are classified and manned. Navy vessels maintain different material conditions according to whether contact of enemy is improbable or imminent. Each condition represents a different degree of tightness.

To avoid confusion and frequent changes in regards to damage control
fittings, settings are referred to by an old phonetic alphabet.
1. Reason for classification of Fitting:
a. Maintain the maximum degree of water tight integrity consisting of working requirements and health and comfort of the crew.
b. Maintain the maximum degree of readiness for battle station consistent with the demands of tactical situation.
c. Minimize the amount of time it takes to put the ship in a battle condition without jeopardizing the operational ability of the ship and the comfort of the crew.

2. Definition of Material Condition:
a. Condition X-RAY – Enemy improbable – Color Black.
1) Setting provided the least amount of protection and in use only in well protected harbors.
2) When condition X - Ray is set, all X – Ray fittings are closed except when actually in use.
3) Classification X – Ray is assigned to storeroom, tanks, voids, airtight fittings, fire main valve, etc.
4) Maintained by the division responsible for the cleaning and maintenance of the space in which classified fittings are located.

b. Condition YOKE – Enemy is probable – Color Black.
1) Next higher degree of watertight integrity.
2) Used in unprotected ports during wartime cruising and entering port or leaving during peacetime. 2
3) When condition YOKE is set, all X – Ray and YOKE fittings are closed except when in use for the operation of the ship.
4) Classification is assigned to workshop, airport, lens, pump-room, and fire main segregation valves.
5) Set daily from sunset or at the end of the working day until sunrise.
6) This condition is set and maintained by the division responsible for the cleaning and maintenance of the space in which such classified fittings are found.

Condition ZEBRA – Enemy is imminent - Color Red.
1) Provide for the maximum degree of watertight integrity.
2) Used in battle condition, emergency, when entering or leaving port during wartime.
3) When condition ZEBRA is set, all X – Ray, YOKE, and ZEBRA fittings are closed.
4) Classification ZEBRA is assigned to fittings that would normally be opened at all times, except during battle condition and emergencies.

Source

 

[Timo]

Something on those lines sounds likely, and the real world precedent is there for some variety and flexibility in how different militaries and other organizations would deal with the issue.

As for the "horizontal warp core" issue, I'd suggest that

a) the blue-glowing cylinder segments aren't solid matter but forcefields, better equipped to deal with the stuff contained within but also far less opposed to the passage of physical objects;

b) the horizontal thing is the same as in the TNG era: a plasma conduit taking the generated power from the actual power generator to the nacelles; the stuff being contained thus is this mysterious "warp plasma", with poorly understood properties that may well allow it (or the energy flowing through it) to go through solid walls of proper design; and

c) this thing is quite durable and damage-resistant, but if something does go wrong with it, mere emergency bulkheads are going to be of zero help. Had Khan continued pounding the Enterprise, we might have seen the ship torn to shreds but this conduit surviving intact, until a final Biblical-level kaboom.

Timo Saloniemi