We definitely need more exposure to the Enterprise from the parallel alternate reality, maybe with some Kirk-on-Kirk action thrown in.
Trying to make sense of the timeline
- Thread starter laibcoms
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We definitely need more exposure to the Enterprise from the parallel alternate reality, maybe with some Kirk-on-Kirk action thrown in.
Have you read the MU portion of the DS9 Relaunch novels? Given how many different counterparts of the same person appears in some of them, I've heard it called "Crisis on Infinite Kiras".
seriously, there's at least four that I can count: RU Kira, the Intendant, plus both RU and MU versions of Iliana Ghemor. And perhaps others as well, since RU Iliana is, IIRC, rampaging throughout the multiverse killing every alternate Kira she can!
^ I'd like to see more of some of those alternate timelines, BTW!
And don't forget all the alternate Enterprise-Ds in 2370 and all the alternate Enterprise-Es in 2380.
There are still a few D's floating around by 2380.
Have you read the MU portion of the DS9 Relaunch novels? Given how many different counterparts of the same person appears in some of them, I've heard it called "Crisis on Infinite Kiras".
seriously, there's at least four that I can count: RU Kira, the Intendant, plus both RU and MU versions of Iliana Ghemor. And perhaps others as well, since RU Iliana is, IIRC, rampaging throughout the multiverse killing every alternate Kira she can!
You're not kidding. Let us not forget also
Kira seems to have lived a variety of past lives on ancient Bajor.
I agree, I think it's better that way. I like how the litverse was shaped and where it is going. At the same time, I like where Cryptic brought their parallel timeline in STO.
In a way both fits, remember what was revealed in S31: Disavowed?
STO could be one of those. It would be an interesting concept to see in both sides. Some "glimpse" or one character accidentally appearing in the other. At least, based on Disavowed, a "Parallel Prime Directive" is something to explore ;P (I'm wishing we'll get more Disavowed Mirror Universe novels.)
Speaking of parallel universes, check out the latest in STO: http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9131313-heralds-of-the-iconians Great reveal and great leap forward. To be honest, it was getting bored until this. This new storyline will start with Season 10's release, whenever that will be. It's like a completely new Star Trek (Online), which probably will further separate it from the litverse timeline.
In a way both fits, remember what was revealed in S31: Disavowed?
How their world can view parallel universes and steal their technologies?
STO could be one of those. It would be an interesting concept to see in both sides. Some "glimpse" or one character accidentally appearing in the other. At least, based on Disavowed, a "Parallel Prime Directive" is something to explore ;P (I'm wishing we'll get more Disavowed Mirror Universe novels.)
Speaking of parallel universes, check out the latest in STO: http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9131313-heralds-of-the-iconians Great reveal and great leap forward. To be honest, it was getting bored until this. This new storyline will start with Season 10's release, whenever that will be. It's like a completely new Star Trek (Online), which probably will further separate it from the litverse timeline.
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What's the diff? If it's another Trek, it's another timeline. Same thing, effectively.
Mostly that one presumes an in-universe connection and one doesn't bother. Babylon 5 and DS9, the 80s Flash TV show and the present Flash TV show, NCIS and CSI, ER and Chicago Hope, they aren't alternate timelines or universes, they're just different shows.
I guess to me it's an extra step to go from "different pieces of fiction" to "alternate timelines within the same multiverse", and if I don't have to take that step then I don't see any reason to bother.
I guess to me it's an extra step to go from "different pieces of fiction" to "alternate timelines within the same multiverse", and if I don't have to take that step then I don't see any reason to bother.
Also, there are practical distinctions between different timelines and different fictional realities. Two timelines of a common universe should have the same physical laws governing them, and should probably have the same species and planets and overall history up to a point, with only the details of events differing. So if the novels and ST:O give fundamentally incompatible explanations of what the Iconians were or what Species 8472 is or, say, who built the Guardian of Forever or the Doomsday Machine (I don't know if the game has touched on those last ones, but just for instance), then they can't be considered divergent timelines of the same reality. They're just different conjectural extrapolations from the same fictional universe.
(And by the way, the original Flash TV show was from 1990, not the '80s.)
If you're not considering them alternate timelines because there's no crossovers, then I can see your point. I don't agree, though, since in an infinite multiverse, literally anything is possible.
How about alternate universes, then? That's not the same thing as a timeline.
Nope; an infinite multiverse most certainly does not imply that anything is possible, that's a common misconception. For a quick counterexample, consider a multiverse composed of an infinite number of universes that are all simply translations in time by some amount (so that a given time T in one universe corresponds to a time T+x in some other). This multiverse would be infinite, but the actual series of events in each universe would be precisely the same.
You could also consider a multiverse where, say, every possible universe was a perfect duplicate of every other, that consists only of an infinite number of perfect copies of some universe. Or an infinite number of copies of two possible universes A and B. Or ten possible universes, or any finite number.
Or if these seem arbitrary to you, you could even jump off what Chris said (and thank you for the correction on Flash, that was my bad there): even if you go pure Many-Worlds, and even if you go even beyond that and say that every conceivable possible set of events from the start to the end of our universe corresponds to some universe in a multiverse, that still doesn't make literally anything possible, as you'll never be able to find a universe in this multiverse where (as measured in our own units, not simply differences in the definition of the units) c is 200,000 km/s instead of 300,000 km/s, or where the mass of an electron is 514 keV instead of 511.
I like to think of it like this: the set of prime numbers is infinitely large, but that doesn't mean that it contains 4.
Still seems like too much effort to me; why bother putting them together in any sort of framework? Just let them be separate things, I say.
As I've said before, the problem with resorting to infinite universes to explain implausible alternates is that if there's an infinite number of universes, then the odds of ever reaching a single specific one become one over infinity, which equals zero. So they effectively don't exist anyway. Which makes the argument nothing more than sophistry.
And yes, Idran is right. An infinite number of chances doesn't mean that everything conceivable will happen. Only things that are possible within the laws and constraints of the universe will happen. And probability is not destiny. Just because there's a nonzero chance of something happening, that doesn't require it to happen exactly that percentage of the time, so that if you give a one-in-a-million shot a billion chances of happening, you'll get exactly a thousand results. No. A thousand results would be the average that you'd tend toward if you ran the trial a large number of times. But you could conceivably get ten thousand results, or fifty results, or even zero results. That's why it's called probability -- because it isn't guaranteed.
And yes, Idran is right. An infinite number of chances doesn't mean that everything conceivable will happen. Only things that are possible within the laws and constraints of the universe will happen. And probability is not destiny. Just because there's a nonzero chance of something happening, that doesn't require it to happen exactly that percentage of the time, so that if you give a one-in-a-million shot a billion chances of happening, you'll get exactly a thousand results. No. A thousand results would be the average that you'd tend toward if you ran the trial a large number of times. But you could conceivably get ten thousand results, or fifty results, or even zero results. That's why it's called probability -- because it isn't guaranteed.
Well...not quite. While yes, the odds of reaching a specific universe would be 0, you wouldn't need to reach a specific universe to find the universe you want. Instead, you's just need to find an arbitrary member of "the set of all universes with the desired characteristics and with unbounded variation in all irrelevant and non-causative characteristics" or something along those lines. The odds of selecting a specific real number on [0,1] are 0, but if all you want is a number that begins with 0.5000000000, then you definitely have a nonzero probability of finding that, as you're looking for the odds of selecting an arbitrary member of a defined infinite subset on [0,1].
It would essentially be a question of "what is the density of the subset corresponding to the set of universes that hold the desired characteristics you want and vary from your own universe only in irrelevancies". In this theoretical multiversal scenario, for example, if you wanted to find a universe where everything was exactly the same to you except that a lottery ticket you just lost on you instead won the jackpot on, you wouldn't be selecting a specific universe. You'd be selecting an arbitrary member of the subset of universes in which the chain of causation on the solar system was identical (within some bounds) over all time from T=0 to the present but in which all other parameters were unconstrained. It doesn't really matter if you end up in a universe where Deneb is 95% of its size here and Andromeda has three more stars than it does here, for example, so long as you've got that hundred million dollars from the Powerball and the Earth's history is basically the same as it was in your home universe.
Essentially, "eh, close enough" (to quote Homer Simpson) would be good enough.
Now, the probability would still likely be close to 0 (for some reasonable definition of "close to 0"), which might be enough from your point of view to use that counter-argument. But it is a little more complex than just picking a specific value out of an infinite set.