Can we just pretend that Voyager never happened?

[Dukhat]

As I said before, Q never killed anyone.

Didn't he freeze some crewmember to death?

The worst he ever done was put people in harm's way.

No, the worst he ever did was allow the Borg to discover the existence of the Federation prematurely by flinging the Enterprise right in front of a Borg cube in deep space. Guinan even stated that if the Federation and the Borg had met when they were supposed to, then they would have been ready for that first contact and could possibly have negotiated with them (and yes, I know that subsequent Borg appearances puts this in doubt; but that's what she said). So Q inadvertently (or advertently, depending on your point of view) caused untold death and destruction just because he felt like showing Picard the Borg in person instead of just mentioning them to him.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

As I said before, Q never killed anyone.

Didn't he freeze some crewmember to death?

They were able to revive him. It's 24th century medicine, remember?

The worst he ever done was put people in harm's way.

No, the worst he ever did was allow the Borg to discover the existence of the Federation prematurely by flinging the Enterprise right in front of a Borg cube in deep space. Guinan even stated that if the Federation and the Borg had met when they were supposed to, then they would have been ready for that first contact and could possibly have negotiated with them (and yes, I know that subsequent Borg appearances puts this in doubt; but that's what she said). So Q inadvertently (or advertently, depending on your point of view) caused untold death and destruction just because he felt like showing Picard the Borg in person instead of just mentioning them to him.

Well, Q wanted to make a point, he may have gone a little too far while making it.

 

[Anwar]

The more I think about it, the more I think TNG should have had the Borg show up in an episode and have them effortlessly be destroyed by Q wiggling his eyebrows.

Would have gotten the message across quite well.

Instead we get "The Borg are the ULTIMAAAATE!" stuff.

 

[bbjeg]

As I said before, Q never killed anyone.

Didn't he freeze some crewmember to death?

Froze, but not to death. Q was well aware that the Enterprise had the instruments to revive him. If he really wanted to kill someone, he would have.

The worst he ever done was put people in harm's way.

No, the worst he ever did was allow the Borg to discover the existence of the Federation prematurely by flinging the Enterprise right in front of a Borg cube in deep space. Guinan even stated that if the Federation and the Borg had met when they were supposed to, then they would have been ready for that first contact and could possibly have negotiated with them (and yes, I know that subsequent Borg appearances puts this in doubt; but that's what she said). So Q inadvertently (or advertently, depending on your point of view) caused untold death and destruction just because he felt like showing Picard the Borg in person instead of just mentioning them to him.

What Guinan said was her speculating what may happen. It's just as likely that because of what Q did, the Federation (or at least the Enterprise) was able to defeat the Borg.

Also, we're comparing the Borg to the Q on who's worse and you say "Q inadvertently caused untold deaths" but you failed to add that the Borg caused all those death in addition to all off the other deaths they have and continue to cause which dwarfs the inadverted death rate you're labeling Q with.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Plus Voyager alleges that they had known of the borg like twenty years before the Q incident.

It also alleges that Janeway had access to Holodeck technology when she was a child and that makes Picard in the Big Goodbye sound like some bumpkin who just got his first taste of the big city.

 

[Dukhat]

Also, we're comparing the Borg to the Q on who's worse and you say "Q inadvertently caused untold deaths" but you failed to add that the Borg caused all those death in addition to all off the other deaths they have and continue to cause which dwarfs the inadverted death rate you're labeling Q with.

That's why I used the word "inadvertently." I'm aware that the Borg were the ones doing the killing. That wasn't my point. The Borg wouldn't have had to kill anyone if they had met the Federation in the natural course of time (according to Guinan.) But because of Q's actions, the Borg learned of the Federation prematurely, and the Federation wasn't ready for them. So it is Q's inadvertent fault when anyone in the Alpha Quadrant dies because of the Borg.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Also, we're comparing the Borg to the Q on who's worse and you say "Q inadvertently caused untold deaths" but you failed to add that the Borg caused all those death in addition to all off the other deaths they have and continue to cause which dwarfs the inadverted death rate you're labeling Q with.

That's why I used the word "inadvertently." I'm aware that the Borg were the ones doing the killing. That wasn't my point. The Borg wouldn't have had to kill anyone if they had met the Federation in the natural course of time (according to Guinan.) But because of Q's actions, the Borg learned of the Federation prematurely, and the Federation wasn't ready for them. So it is Q's inadvertent fault when anyone in the Alpha Quadrant dies because of the Borg.

Which is entirely based on Guinan's theory and her ability to predict the future...

 

[bbjeg]

Also, we're comparing the Borg to the Q on who's worse and you say "Q inadvertently caused untold deaths" but you failed to add that the Borg caused all those death in addition to all off the other deaths they have and continue to cause which dwarfs the inadverted death rate you're labeling Q with.

That's why I used the word "inadvertently." I'm aware that the Borg were the ones doing the killing. That wasn't my point. The Borg wouldn't have had to kill anyone if they had met the Federation in the natural course of time (according to Guinan.) But because of Q's actions, the Borg learned of the Federation prematurely, and the Federation wasn't ready for them. So it was Q's inadvertent fault that all those people died.

From how your wording it, Q could only be responsible for the section of the Enterprise that that first cube cut away. The federation probably had more prep time than they would have if Q didn't fling Enterprise. The Enterprise got lots of scans and at the beginning of All Good Things seasons later, they discussed preparations and ways of detecting them. Also, what makes you think that after all of the countless planets that they assimilated that they would stop at Federation space due to good diplomacy?

Anyway, as Kobayshi Maru pointed out, Voyager (Raven, I think) stated that Earth had been aware of the Borg.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Also, we're comparing the Borg to the Q on who's worse and you say "Q inadvertently caused untold deaths" but you failed to add that the Borg caused all those death in addition to all off the other deaths they have and continue to cause which dwarfs the inadverted death rate you're labeling Q with.

That's why I used the word "inadvertently." I'm aware that the Borg were the ones doing the killing. That wasn't my point. The Borg wouldn't have had to kill anyone if they had met the Federation in the natural course of time (according to Guinan.) But because of Q's actions, the Borg learned of the Federation prematurely, and the Federation wasn't ready for them. So it was Q's inadvertent fault that all those people died.

From how your wording it, Q could only be responsible for the section of the Enterprise that that first cube cut away. The federation probably had more prep time than they would have if Q didn't fling Enterprise. The Enterprise got lots of scans and at the beginning of All Good Things seasons later, they discussed preparations and ways of detecting them. Also, what makes you think that after all of the countless planets that they assimilated that they would stop at Federation space due to good diplomacy?

Anyway, as Kobayshi Maru pointed out, Voyager (Raven, I think) stated that Earth had been aware of the Borg.

Yes and we can also see the Hansens, (Seven's parents) discuss the borg with a model borg cube on what appears to be a coffee table. So it seems it wasn't the first sighting of a borg cube in the alpha quadrant by twenty years or so.

 

[Dukhat]

None of that makes any difference. If the Federation knew about the Borg already, they certainly didn't disseminate that information (or the information they did have was completely useless), as everyone seems completely overwhelmed by the Borg and their attacks post-"Q-Who?"

Apparently Earth also knew about the Ferengi 200 years before Picard encountered them during the Battle of Maxia, and yet the Federation acted like they knew nothing of them either.

That's why retcons like the Hansens and ENT make little sense in the larger continuity, and should not be taken as gospel that "they already knew of these threats before they were even introduced."

Also, what makes you think that after all of the countless planets that they assimilated that they would stop at Federation space due to good diplomacy?

It's not just about diplomacy. It's about being ready for the Borg when they finally meet. As in, if the Federation met the Borg when they should have, say, 500 years later, then they could have been more of a force to be reckoned with. The Borg being utterly logical, might conclude that this group would have the defenses to counter being assimilated. Therefore, the losses incurred from trying to assimilate them would be counterproductive, so instead they would focus their energies elsewhere. If the Federation were that powerful that the Borg would feel that assimilating them would be counterproductive, then perhaps some sort of negotiation could be possible at that time.

 

[Anwar]

The Feds didn't know about the Borg specifically, they just knew there were mysterious and hostile cybernetic beings out there.

And they've known that since TOS.

Anywho, the Borg are lucky they never attacked Organia or the planet the Douwd guy lived on.

We should've seen the Borg more in TNG and seen them get annihilated more often by God-Aliens.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

None of that makes any difference. If the Federation knew about the Borg already, they certainly didn't disseminate that information (or the information they did have was completely useless), as everyone seems completely overwhelmed by the Borg and their attacks post-"Q-Who?"

Apparently Earth also knew about the Ferengi 200 years before Picard encountered them during the Battle of Maxia, and yet the Federation acted like they knew nothing of them either.

That's why retcons like the Hansens and ENT make little sense in the larger continuity, and should not be taken as gospel that "they already knew of these threats before they were even introduced."

Also, what makes you think that after all of the countless planets that they assimilated that they would stop at Federation space due to good diplomacy?

It's not just about diplomacy. It's about being ready for the Borg when they finally meet. As in, if the Federation met the Borg when they should have, say, 500 years later, then they could have been more of a force to be reckoned with. The Borg being utterly logical, might conclude that this group would have the defenses to counter being assimilated. Therefore, the losses incurred from trying to assimilate them would be counterproductive, so instead they would focus their energies elsewhere. If the Federation were that powerful that the Borg would feel that assimilating them would be counterproductive, then perhaps some sort of negotiation could be possible at that time.

I think that the Borg were a little more choosy about whom they were going to assimilate than we assume. Seven even said that if they had met with Earth before first contact they would have judged them unworthy of assimilation. In fact the more technological advancement you have the more tempting a target you become to them.

 

[Anwar]

The people at J-25 were 20th Century level, and that didn't stop the Borg.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They could have had advanced/useful/unique biological distinctiveness?

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

They cold have had advanced/useful/unique biological distinctiveness?

That would be my guess.

 

[fireproof78]

The Feds didn't know about the Borg specifically, they just knew there were mysterious and hostile cybernetic beings out there.

And they've known that since TOS.

Anywho, the Borg are lucky they never attacked Organia or the planet the Douwd guy lived on.

We should've seen the Borg more in TNG and seen them get annihilated more often by God-Aliens.

Most god-aliens in Trek universe are too self-absorbed and narcissistic to be bothered to mess with the Borg. Nagilum, Pah-Wraiths, etc. would consider to be a corporeal matter, and not one they want to deal with. God-aliens can't be bothered with such trivial matters.

The Borg are intolerant of anything different, and do not peaceably coexist with other races. They view races as resources to be consumed, in service of the greater whole.

They can be an interesting concept, if explored properly, which writers sometimes don't know how to do. I don't think a one-shot is a requirement, but there are rules that should be established and maintained. Inconsistency is what results in overpowering or underpowering a villain in writing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

GUINAN: Q set a series of events into motion, bringing contact with the Borg much sooner than it should have come. Now, perhaps when you're ready, it might be possible to establish a relationship with them. But for now, for right now, you're just raw material to them. Since they are aware of your existence
PICARD: They will be coming.
GUINAN: You can bet on it.
PICARD: Maybe Q did the right thing for the wrong reason.
GUINAN: How so?
PICARD: Well, perhaps what we most needed was a kick in our complacency, to prepare us ready for what lies ahead.

The problem with using this quote, is that in this episode, the Borg only want technology and have no interest whatsoever in assimilating individuals into the collective.

Maybe the the Borg were in the midst of the equivalence of a hiring freeze?

Why would Guinan say "that" if she had never seen the Borg having lasting alliances before?

Was she bald faced lying so that Picard would only squirt in his pants a little bit and not empty everything he had ever eaten?

In early season one, the crew of the Enterprise didn't know what Nanites were.

 

[tcm121]

Guinan was kind of right in her relationship prediction when you think about the alliance Janeway formed in Scorpion. Yes it was temporary and completely based on necessity for the Borg, but it's still a form of relationship.

Back to the topic of the post. I find it amazing to see how increasingly poorly Voyager is rated in retrospect. Every series had it's low points. Just how think cringy and questionable tonnes of episodes in season 1 & 2 of TNG were, yet Threshold (a season 2 episode remember!) is so much more pinned down and focused on. Think of the cringiness of The Naked Now or blatant racism of Code of Honour in TNG. Then the bad Voyager episodes are a bit more on par in my eyes.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Episodes 2 and 3 of TNG, which were made in the 80s by a bunch of 70 year olds who used to produce Gunsmoke?

That's your evidence that Star Trek the Generation was as shit as Voyager?

Did a lot of Voyager seem like it was made in the 80s by seventy year olds who used to produce Gunnsmoke?

I thought as much.

 

[tcm121]

Fine, Yar being killed by a lump of sludge towards the end of season 1. Starfleet's flagship chief engineer being held hostage by the dumbest aliens ever in Samaritan Snare. Ferengis taking over the Enterprise with a couple of old birds of prey and kid Picard saving the ship in Rascals. Or maybe the notion of a teenage kid leading a science project and driving the Enterprise...

Don't get me wrong, I love TNG. My point isn't that TNG is more shit, but both have had their low and rather questionable episodes.