Who says it must be taken literally?
Mirror Universe - Alternate Timeline or No?
- Thread starter JonnyQuest037
- Start date
Who says it must be taken literally?
But that graphic clearly was not photographic historical footage. As I have pointed out, that's not how Star Trek science works. The multiverse in Star Trek is comprised of branching timelines.
Maybe your idea is possible in Star Trek. As I previously said, no exact divergence point for the mirror universe has ever been canonically established. If the mirror universe diverged sufficiently far back in history, then mirror Earth could plausibly be different from prime Earth in that respect.
Provided that everything came from a single bit of "stuff" in the beginning and everything branched from there, there really is no difference between a parallel universe and an alternate timeline. The two exceptions to that that I'm aware of would be:
1. If some of the stuff I've read Brian Greene writing about lately is correct, there are a *practically* infinite number of other universes out there in physical space beyond our own - like soap bubbles in a vast sea of them, I believe is the imagery he uses. If so, then there could be parallel universes.
2. If the Mirror Universe was actually a totally separate act of Creation - say, by an Evil version of God who had similar ideas but a different nature. But as that involves religious matters that I doubt we'd see Trek getting into except in throwaway lines or VERY peripherally, then I doubt this is it. Plus, even if it was the explanation it doesn't solve much, because it just moves the discussion to whether those are parallel Gods or just branching paths of the same one.
1. If some of the stuff I've read Brian Greene writing about lately is correct, there are a *practically* infinite number of other universes out there in physical space beyond our own - like soap bubbles in a vast sea of them, I believe is the imagery he uses. If so, then there could be parallel universes.
2. If the Mirror Universe was actually a totally separate act of Creation - say, by an Evil version of God who had similar ideas but a different nature. But as that involves religious matters that I doubt we'd see Trek getting into except in throwaway lines or VERY peripherally, then I doubt this is it. Plus, even if it was the explanation it doesn't solve much, because it just moves the discussion to whether those are parallel Gods or just branching paths of the same one.
It's a fun idea to explore. Something so insignificant like the direction Earth rotates set in motion a chain of events that ultimately resulted in such polar opposite civilizations developing.
Besides, the people making the graphic for those credits had to have known what they were doing and the implications of it. Or did they just forget which direction Earth spins? That would be really embarrassing for someone working on a Star Trek show.
But "Parallels" allows us as the fans to accept ALL aspects of the Trek franchise as "canon". That way, you can include the source materials from the FASA games as well as stuff from the novels, not to mention that you could say that fan fiction and fan productions are also "canon"; they are simply divergent aspects of the "prime" timeline. And that's why I think the uproar over NuTrek (legitimate or otherwise) is silly. You don't have to accept NuTrek, but still like 'Trek, if that's possible.
I would say that it was because of Picard that a benign Federation was made possible. Remember, Cochran(e) and company were not exactly living in an environment that would be conducive to being altruistic to begin with (i.e. the Eugenics War, World War III, the Post-Atomic Horror Years, etc.). In fact, Cochran(e) himself was more interested in profit than in pure space exploration UNTIL he saw the Enterprise-D, and became convinced that humanity had the potential to become better. I don't think it would have been possible otherwise without some sort of intervention, hence my original premise.
If nuTrek wasn't the only Trek still being made, I'd accept that. But we don't all get what we like. I sure am not.
Placed in the terms Parallels gives us, it's as if (for me) the universe where the Borg assimilated the Federation and maybe the whole Alpha Quadrant is the only one.
Whether a parallel timeline or an alternate one branching off from a certain point, it's still a remarkable coincidence that the same group of familiar people are in the same place at the same time as our heroes. But I guess I'll have to write that off as a storytelling conceit - coincidences do happen, after all (although the set of circumstances that brought the mirror-people together would obviously be radically different).
FWIW, I've never subscribed to the theory that people's choices and actions create branching timelines - aside from the absurd energy requirements to create all these universes (if every choice every being makes on every world throughout time creates a new one), the circumstances leading up to decisions are based on a set of pre-existing events and calculations in our brains. If the events leading up to the decision are the same, so would be the result. We are creatures of our environment.
No, the only way to create new timelines IMO is through interference by time travellers - and I can easily argue that most excursions by such people are merely part of pre-existing time loops (ala TNG's Time's Arrow), changing nothing - i.e. there was never a Trek history where Kirk was not involved in Edith Keeler's death (never believe GOF propaganda!). Loops like this are the timeline's/universe's way of protecting itself from splitting or branching, maintaining instead a single, strong formation (albeit with loops along the way) Under this model, new timelines created artificially are rare events indeed (Nero, I'm looking at you!)
Interestingly, Trek history is heavily dependant on these sort of time travel loops for its very existence - without them the future would look very different (Nero?)
Anyway, back on topic, I would have to vote for the Mirror Universe being a parallel universe that just happened to evolve very similarly to our own (coincidences, eh?). But as Brian Greene puts it, there's only so many ways to shuffle a deck of cards!
Unfortunately, I pressed the wrong button on the "vote"!!! Anyone know how to fix that?
FWIW, I've never subscribed to the theory that people's choices and actions create branching timelines - aside from the absurd energy requirements to create all these universes (if every choice every being makes on every world throughout time creates a new one), the circumstances leading up to decisions are based on a set of pre-existing events and calculations in our brains. If the events leading up to the decision are the same, so would be the result. We are creatures of our environment.
No, the only way to create new timelines IMO is through interference by time travellers - and I can easily argue that most excursions by such people are merely part of pre-existing time loops (ala TNG's Time's Arrow), changing nothing - i.e. there was never a Trek history where Kirk was not involved in Edith Keeler's death (never believe GOF propaganda!). Loops like this are the timeline's/universe's way of protecting itself from splitting or branching, maintaining instead a single, strong formation (albeit with loops along the way) Under this model, new timelines created artificially are rare events indeed (Nero, I'm looking at you!)
Interestingly, Trek history is heavily dependant on these sort of time travel loops for its very existence - without them the future would look very different (Nero?)
Anyway, back on topic, I would have to vote for the Mirror Universe being a parallel universe that just happened to evolve very similarly to our own (coincidences, eh?). But as Brian Greene puts it, there's only so many ways to shuffle a deck of cards!
Unfortunately, I pressed the wrong button on the "vote"!!! Anyone know how to fix that?
True, but since "Mirror, Mirror" is my all-time favorite episode of Trek, I have no trouble with this particular suspension of disbelief.
Besides, I have the feeling that if we looked into the MU from either a few years before or after "Mirror, Mirror", things would look pretty different from the TOS status quo. We know that the MU Christopher Pike died earlier than he did in the Prime Universe, and the MU Marlena Moreau was assigned to the Enterprise earlier than "ours" was. Sulu has a scar and an additional assignment on the ship. We see additional personnel in the forms of Kirk's and Spock's personal guards. If our glimpse of the leader of the Halkan Council can be trusted, they're certainly more beleaguered in the MU. I'm also sure that the MU Kirk, Sulu, and Chekov would all be seeing some fairly big changes after the landing party beams back.
And really, we only see a very small slice of the Mirror Universe over the course of "Mirror, Mirror." For all we know, the Enterprise and its bridge crew are about the only things the two universes have in common. If we'd gotten a broader glimpse of the MU in that episode, I'm sure we'd see even more differences between the two.*
*For the purposes of this discussion, I'm only talking about "Mirror, Mirror" and not any of the sequels and prequels. About the only thing the various sequels to that original episode all seem to agree on is that things changed in a big way after Kirk's visit to the MU.
I have no idea if that's possible, but right now it looks like the parallel universe interpretation is ahead either way.
I once tried to explore the 'plot coincidence' stuff, by charting a course in history between the disappearance of the Enterprise-C, through all the events in the alternate timeline that we saw in "Yesterday's Enterprise", my point being to try and rationalise how so many of the same crew might exist together in two seperate continuities and what the throughlines were that made that coincidence possible.
It's surprisingly easy to come up with rationale. If for example Enterprise-D is the flagship in both universes, then the presence of Wesley is easily explained as A) Starfleet recruiting younger due to the war; and B) his mom being on the ship. So the lack of families still doesn't preclude alt!Wesley having been there from the beginning of alt!Season One.
One thing I admired about the original "Mirror, Mirror" was that it did a lot of this work for us. With the simple plot device of saying the Mirror Kirk assassinated the Mirror Pike, we're basically told that this parallel universe operates on lines not too dissimilar to our own (Pike was still the Captain before Kirk in both universes, so it's not too much of a stretch that the same crew inhabit both Enterprise's regardless).
It's surprisingly easy to come up with rationale. If for example Enterprise-D is the flagship in both universes, then the presence of Wesley is easily explained as A) Starfleet recruiting younger due to the war; and B) his mom being on the ship. So the lack of families still doesn't preclude alt!Wesley having been there from the beginning of alt!Season One.
One thing I admired about the original "Mirror, Mirror" was that it did a lot of this work for us. With the simple plot device of saying the Mirror Kirk assassinated the Mirror Pike, we're basically told that this parallel universe operates on lines not too dissimilar to our own (Pike was still the Captain before Kirk in both universes, so it's not too much of a stretch that the same crew inhabit both Enterprise's regardless
).
Whereas, I love the idea that Trek's world, particularly in the TNG era, isn't as rosy as the Federation propaganda machine would have you think
Rationales for the crew just happening to be in the same familiar positions is not too hard for either MM or YE, since (as JonnyQuest037 points out) we only get a very narrow slice of each universe. Incidentally, I consider YE's war scenario to be a distinct parallel universe, as it just doesn't work logically as an altered timeline.
As for coincidences, many stories use them to one degree or another (the title ship always happening to be where the best action is, for instance) so as long as the rest of the story is strong that needn't be a problem. MM and YE are two good examples of this.
Back to rationales, YE shows us right off the bat that Wesley has had a different past, as has Tasha of course. Riker and Picard's relationship seems a lot more strained and we might infer that he has not been on board long, or that (given his age and experience) he lost or was disgraced on a command of his own. Radically different histories just happening to resemble our universe for 45 minutes at a certain point in time ;-)
All fun to speculate on, of course. In fact the only oddity in all this is McCoy's comment about the acid stain on his desk - he seems to imply a link to events of our own universe but perhaps this is just a case of the good Doctor trying to see a pattern where there is none. According to another Doctor, humans do this all the time.
As for coincidences, many stories use them to one degree or another (the title ship always happening to be where the best action is, for instance) so as long as the rest of the story is strong that needn't be a problem. MM and YE are two good examples of this.
Back to rationales, YE shows us right off the bat that Wesley has had a different past, as has Tasha of course. Riker and Picard's relationship seems a lot more strained and we might infer that he has not been on board long, or that (given his age and experience) he lost or was disgraced on a command of his own. Radically different histories just happening to resemble our universe for 45 minutes at a certain point in time ;-)
All fun to speculate on, of course. In fact the only oddity in all this is McCoy's comment about the acid stain on his desk - he seems to imply a link to events of our own universe but perhaps this is just a case of the good Doctor trying to see a pattern where there is none. According to another Doctor, humans do this all the time.
As far as I'm concerned, Spock established "the currents of time" in "City on the Edge of Forever" which explains everything from Kirk and Spock meeting McCoy at the crucial moment, to every alternate history featuring the same people interacting in the same place whenever the plot needs them to.
I came to the realisation long ago that the mirror universe, with it's brutal empire and a savage humanity slashing and burning it's way across the galaxy, is probably *our* future timeline.
Star Trek Prime's normal-rosy-glass-half-full-everything's-gonna-turn-out-alright future is actually the wacky parallel universe to our own. Not the other way around.
I always figured that the future shown in the Alien movies (the ones with Sigourney Weaver) is most likely what our future will be like. Corporations and governments will still have their fair share of corruption, but there will also be a lot of good people as well.
And I believe that Prime Spock even had a deleted line in Trek '09 about the universe or the timeline trying to correct itself to right path by bringing people like Kirk, Spock, Scotty & McCoy together under different circumstances. That's kind of a similar thing.
So who time-traveled to create the apocalyptic reality mentioned in "Parallels" where the Borg had successfully invaded the Federation and the Enterprise-D was one of the last Federation ships left?
In Christopher's excellent novel Watching the Clock (which utilizes real-life physics concepts), as 24th century Federation physicists understand things, branching timelines are constantly locked in a Darwinian struggle for survival. Some survive long enough after divergence to become a lasting timeline while others collapse back into the quantum ocean. So not every timeline created by individual beings' small decisions becomes a permanent parallel timeline of its own.
Fair points, but I'm sure there are more time travel escapades than the limited ones we saw on TV. The Borg tried time travel in ST:FC, who's to say that this was their first attempt? Or even their last? A temporal incursion by them could well have led to the splinter timeline that Crazy Riker hailed from. On the other hand, maybe it was just a concurrent parallel universe.
FWIW, I have read both Christopher's books on the DTI and found them very enjoyable, as well as taking an excellent stab at reconciling Star Trek physics with current quantum theory. However, surely there's room for more than one interpretation? The good thing about the episodes is even with 24th Century technobabble, not all the answers are provided. This leaves plenty of scope for further intellectual speculation (and more than one way to read the events of a given story).
Going back to TNG's Parallels, wasn't there a line or two in Christopher's book concerning that adventure where our two heroes speculate on what really happened? I may have to go and reread it, but I seem to recall that even they don't know what might have happened to bring 300,000 realities bouncing together!
FWIW, I have read both Christopher's books on the DTI and found them very enjoyable, as well as taking an excellent stab at reconciling Star Trek physics with current quantum theory. However, surely there's room for more than one interpretation? The good thing about the episodes is even with 24th Century technobabble, not all the answers are provided. This leaves plenty of scope for further intellectual speculation (and more than one way to read the events of a given story).
Going back to TNG's Parallels, wasn't there a line or two in Christopher's book concerning that adventure where our two heroes speculate on what really happened? I may have to go and reread it, but I seem to recall that even they don't know what might have happened to bring 300,000 realities bouncing together!
