Star Wars: Episode VII: The Nerd Rage Awakens

[CorporalCaptain]

It would appear as though Anakin did his job and Luke and others failed.

Han succeeded in brining down the shield. Lando and Wedge succeeded in blowing up the Death Star. Luke succeeded in turning Vader back to the good side. That was everything that the OT Rebel characters had set out to do.

As for Anakin doing his job? No. He failed to his job years ago, when he sacrificed the Jedi for his selfish reasons.

So, that's a 'no' all the way around, there.

 

[davejames]

Yeah even if Vader hadn't turned on him at the last minute, the Emperor still would have gotten blown up with the Death Star after the rebel fleet got through the shield and blew up the reactor.

Vader may have succeeded in saving Luke, but I think it's a stretch to say he played some larger role in overthrowing the Empire.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Yeah even if Vader hadn't turned on him at the last minute, the Emperor still would have gotten blown up with the Death Star after the rebel fleet got through the shield and blew up the reactor.

Not necessarily...Luke got out.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Yeah even if Vader hadn't turned on him at the last minute, the Emperor still would have gotten blown up with the Death Star after the rebel fleet got through the shield and blew up the reactor.

Not necessarily...Luke got out.

That's so. The Rebels hadn't planned on boarding the Death Star to ensure the Emperor's death. Luke's mission to confront Vader and the Emperor was not part of the plan approved by the Rebel High Command. The Rebels had only timed the attack to give them their best chance of getting the Emperor while aboard the battle station.

Anakin gets credit for killing the Emperor, but that's not the same as doing his job, even in that respect. At that point, his job was to be the Emperor's #2. Anakin stopped doing his job, and did the right thing instead.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Yeah. I don't think Anakin ever put "backstabber" on his resume, even if he excelled at it.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Anakin's job, per the "Prophecy" and Lucas' stated intent for the Saga (i.e. Anakin as The Chosen One), was to bring balance to the Force. He does so by sacrificing himself to kill the Emperor (who, along with the stodgy old Jedi Council - which he also helped eliminate - unbalanced the Force).

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Job ain't the right word.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Eh, it's all semantics. Hence the italics. It's about what the character was meant to do, or accomplish. Anakin's character fulfilled the Prophecy - hence, he accomplished his "job" or "purpose" (or whatever word floats your boat). Either way, his descent into darkness is what makes the story more interesting than a simple hero quest (Luke's journey, for example).

 

[DWF]

Yeah even if Vader hadn't turned on him at the last minute, the Emperor still would have gotten blown up with the Death Star after the rebel fleet got through the shield and blew up the reactor.

Not necessarily...Luke got out.

That's so. The Rebels hadn't planned on boarding the Death Star to ensure the Emperor's death. Luke's mission to confront Vader and the Emperor was not part of the plan approved by the Rebel High Command. The Rebels had only timed the attack to give them their best chance of getting the Emperor while aboard the battle station.

Anakin gets credit for killing the Emperor, but that's not the same as doing his job, even in that respect. At that point, his job was to be the Emperor's #2. Anakin stopped doing his job, and did the right thing instead.

It was Anakin's job to being balance to the Force and by killing Palpatine he did just that. The Emperor planned for the Rebels to attack what they thought was incomplete death star so he could destroy them in fell swoop.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The term was used in the context of also asserting by contrast how others failed, which was a bogus assertion.

It would appear as though Anakin did his job and Luke and others failed.

Anyway, fulfilling a prophecy isn't a job.

 

[DWF]

The term was used in the context of also asserting by contrast how others failed, which was a bogus assertion.

It would appear as though Anakin did his job and Luke and others failed.

Anyway, fulfilling a prophecy isn't a job.

Yeah I guess you can't get paid for being the chosen one.

 

[CorporalClegg]

It was Anakin's job to being balance to the Force

There's that "job" word again.

A prophecy could say I'm destined to become a lumberjack. But that doesn't mean I'm obligated to spend my life cutting down trees, do my shopping on Wednesdays, and have buttered scones and tea for lunch.

The whole prophecy thing was totally mishandled. Lucas shouldn't have even put it in there to begin with. He was trying too hard to turn Anakin into his own mythological folk hero.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

The term was used in the context of also asserting by contrast how others failed, which was a bogus assertion.

Well, yes, in the context the term was used, Luke also fulfilled his job which was to redeem his father and become an embodiment of the balance Anakin brings about through the defeat of the Emperor. That, of course, does not invalidate the fact that Anakin ultimately succeeded in doing his "job" (i.e. fulfilling his character's purpose in the narrative).

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The term was used in the context of also asserting by contrast how others failed, which was a bogus assertion.

Well, yes, in the context the term was used, Luke also fulfilled his job which was to redeem his father and become an embodiment of the balance Anakin brings about through the defeat of the Emperor. That, of course, does not invalidate the fact that Anakin ultimately succeeded in doing his "job" (i.e. fulfilling his character's purpose in the narrative).

The Rebels all did their jobs. They accomplished their respective missions. If one wants to talk about Anakin's purpose in the narrative, it makes better sense not to contrast it with the aspect regarding the other characters, which doesn't make sense on any level. Being so lumped together was one reason why I objected.

In any case, I agree that Anakin did fulfill the prophecy, just not in any way considered by any of the PT characters, at least out loud.

 

[DWF]

By turning Vader into Luke and Leia's father Lucas made him a mythological character.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

The Rebels all did their jobs. They accomplished their respective missions. If one wants to talk about Anakin's purpose in the narrative, it makes better sense not to contrast it with the aspect regarding the other characters, which doesn't make sense on any level. Being so lumped together was one reason why I objected.

Well, you could say that Anakin didn't exactly excel at his job (falling into darkness and causing decades worth of terror in the process) before ultimately succeeding - unlike Luke and the Rebels who, while they had their flaws, didn't ally themselves with darkness to achieve their goals. But ultimately Anakin did accomplish what he was meant to do - what he originally wanted to do (per the PT).

In any case, I agree that Anakin did fulfill the prophecy, just not in any way considered by any of the PT characters, at least out loud.

This is quite true. Though, for me, it's part of why I enjoy the entire six-film saga so much. Anakin's success is more about the ends, rather than the means - and the destruction his missteps (the means to the end) caused reinforce, to me at least, that the means are at least as important as the end results.

Or, in other words, Anakin fulfills the Prophecy (does his job); but the manner with which he does so serves as a cautionary tale that even doing your job isn't enough, if you don't do it honorably throughout.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Yeah. Just because Anakin evidently ultimately fulfilled the prophecy to bring balance to the Force, I do not believe that that means that what he did in terms of falling to the dark side was right. I do not believe that any aspect of the narrative excuses Anakin's behavior merely because of the ultimate outcome, which by the way is now, with the coming of SWVII:TFA, no longer ultimate. Of course, in theory, we could also learn that Anakin did not in fact bring balance to the Force, at least not by killing the Emperor, or not exclusively by it.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I don't think Anakin ever put "backstabber" on his resume, even if he excelled at it.

Everybody get on the floor and dance, it's the Sith Anthem:

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwZciH3hx-A[/yt]

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Just because Anakin evidently ultimately fulfilled the prophecy to bring balance to the Force, I do not believe that that means that what he did in terms of falling to the dark side was right. I do not believe that any aspect of the narrative excuses Anakin's behavior merely because of the ultimate outcome

I entirely agree. Years ago I had a debate with someone about whether or not Anakin was "The Greatest Jedi Ever" and I disagreed, wholeheartedly, precisely because of what you say - the positive end result does not excuse the means by which Anakin achieved it.

In other words, for me anyway, I can say that Anakin did his "job" (fulfilled his purpose) - but he didn't do it in a way I could excuse. If, by saying, "do your job," you also mean "do your job the right way from the start" (like Luke, more or less) then yeah, you could say that Anakin didn't do his "job" (which is why I said earlier that this seems more about semantics, rather than what actually took place).

Bottom line: by framing the Saga as "Anakin's story," Lucas is showing us that the ends do not justify the means. Of course, that only works if one buys into the stories the PT is trying to tell (the way Anakin is portrayed as falling from innocence into evil) - and given the many flaws of the PT, that's by no means taken for granted.

 

[DWF]

Just because Anakin evidently ultimately fulfilled the prophecy to bring balance to the Force, I do not believe that that means that what he did in terms of falling to the dark side was right. I do not believe that any aspect of the narrative excuses Anakin's behavior merely because of the ultimate outcome

I entirely agree. Years ago I had a debate with someone about whether or not Anakin was "The Greatest Jedi Ever" and I disagreed, wholeheartedly, precisely because of what you say - the positive end result does not excuse the means by which Anakin achieved it.

In other words, for me anyway, I can say that Anakin did his "job" (fulfilled his purpose) - but he didn't do it in a way I could excuse. If, by saying, "do your job," you also mean "do your job the right way from the start" (like Luke, more or less) then yeah, you could say that Anakin didn't do his "job" (which is why I said earlier that this seems more about semantics, rather than what actually took place).

Bottom line: by framing the Saga as "Anakin's story," Lucas is showing us that the ends do not justify the means. Of course, that only works if one buys into the stories the PT is trying to tell (the way Anakin is portrayed as falling from innocence into evil) - and given the many flaws of the PT, that's by no means taken for granted.

Star Wars has never been about the ends justifing the means, it's about choices. And we're told by Qui-Gon that nothing happens by coinsidence so Anakin was destined to take out the Emperor and restore balance to the Force, he appears not to have much choice in the matter. Storywise though once the decision was made to make Vader Luke's father the storyline was made to conform to that retcon.