Dukat - the Real Star of DS9???

[fireproof78]

What I found surprising is Quark quoting earth poetry as in Little Green Men when he says: "All I want is a tall ship... with a load of contrabande to fill her with." Why would a Ferengi know about that poem? He also says in that episode that humans from the 20th century are people that he can relate too. Confirming that Quark is much closer to modern day humans than anyone else on the show.

Aliens quoting human expressions is, as you Ferengi say, a tube grub in a waterfall.

It's more than simply "human" expressions. I for one, wouldn't know about John Masefield, if Spock hadn't corrected Leonard McCoy on the subject. I doubt many French people know of him, or American for that matter.
It makes it very surprising that a Ferengi would know him so well that he would use him so casually.

Not to derail the thread at all, but the idea of a Ferengi knowing Earth poetry is actually more in line with their culture than Klingons knowing Shakespeare. Ferengi were categorized as "Yankee Traders" who would seek how new opportunities of profit from foreign lands. The idea that Quark would learn how to quote human sentiments would certainly be in line with trying to appear to be sympathetic and open to Earth culture.

Or, it could be that Quark has heard so many humans talking in his bar that he just picked up the pieces that appealed to him.

As for Dukat, I always found him and Sisko to be the more interesting dynamic in the show. How Dukat is constantly living in his shadow, to the point that he must take on the opposite side to Sisko, even in the Bajoran religion. While I think he becomes more 1-dimensional as the Pah-Wraith bad guy, I think it reflects his downward slide in terms of power, going from government official, to religious power monger. Regardless of your views on religion, using another person's religious beliefs to further your own personal power is the act of a con man not that of a powerful leader.

It is a sad end for Dukat.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Gul Dukat was a three dimensional character, a true wild card and could have been one the best antagonist in Star Trek. He loved making Bajorans tremble when he was around, he was a modern day Joseph Stalin in the Star Trek universe. To me, when Dukat was in an episode I had to throw all the cliche's aside, expect the unexpected when Dukat was on board.

I didn't know why the writers forgot he had 7 sons and why he treasured the half breed traitor he went bonkers for?

Season 4 was like an alternate universe of the character, less charismatic and more pathetic; he lost that manipulative vigor which made him great. Then after his daughter was killed and lost DS9 again he became a very boring, one dimensional demento doing a lot of predictable things that was opposite from the character who was brilliant in the first 3 seasons.

Yes, I think Dukat was an incredible character... in the beginning.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Gul Dukat was a three dimensional character, a true wild card and could have been one the best antagonist in Star Trek. He loved making Bajorans tremble when he was around, he was a modern day Joseph Stalin in the Star Trek universe. To me, when Dukat was in an episode I had to throw all the cliche's aside, expect the unexpected when Dukat was on board.

I didn't know why the writers forgot he had 7 sons and why he treasured the half breed traitor he went bonkers for?

Season 4 was like an alternate universe of the character, less charismatic and more pathetic; he lost that manipulative vigor which made him great. Then after his daughter was killed and lost DS9 again he became a very boring, one dimensional demento doing a lot of predictable things that was opposite from the character who was brilliant in the first 3 seasons.

Yes, I think Dukat was an incredible character... in the beginning.

I agree, the writers turned Dukat into a second rate villain. I don't think they realized what they were doing when they decided to make him go crazy and turn him into a religious puppet of the pah wraiths.

 

[STEPhon IT]

[/QUOTE]
I agree, the writers turned Dukat into a second rate villain. I don't think they realized what they were doing when they decided to make him go crazy and turn him into a religious puppet of the pah wraiths.[/QUOTE]

Because the new writers of the show wanted Dukat to be Hitler but never read a history book which shows that Joseph Stalin was 10,000 times worst. Michael Pillar had to have read about Joseph Stalin when making Dukat, Stalin thought the soviet people he oppressed were his kids and if they disobeyed, he didn't bother to gas them or anything like that but punish them. Punish them to point where if he said the sky was pink, they would actually start seeing the sky was pink. Stalin was not a racist like Hitler and he could embody his warped ethics to anyone ANYONE. That was Dukat to a T. You had to be very very very careful with him. The audience never truly saw the atrocities he committed, but look at the responses the cast would have around him. Like Stalin those atrocities were personal and no one would dare speak of them. Kira, the Vedeks, the Bajorans, no one. Why???

Great material was written in the first 3 seasons but some thought it was boring. The writing team was developing a whole new world. I'm glad they took chances, it's sad that ended after "The Adversary".

 

[JD5000]

What would you have done with Dukat? His glory was on the decline, I think his descent into madness made perfect sense. It's a common story among despots, and Trek often follows historical patterns with its major characters. His story had to end somewhere, and although the character wasn't as fun to watch as in the waning moments of his heyday, I think the way this character was written in the latter seasons of DS9 worked well in terms of the narrative.

 

[STEPhon IT]

There's nothing I could have done with Dukat as the writing continued to become more and more juvenile. The narrative was all about favoring the BOLD, killing, and performing cowardice acts left and right. There was nothing heroic about these characters anymore and when you have a dumb world where blood screenings, and disregarding basic trek ethics everywhere, EVEN ON EARTH, than it doesn't require a 3 dimensional character anymore. What it needs is to define Kai Winn to BE THE VILLAIN, and Dukat to BE THE EVIL ONE, and de-evolve them to the point where they're fucking each other. Hey, it's easy pickings when the writers are doing it to them on their apple computers.

So yes, you're right it made perfect sense.

 

[JD5000]

I'm not following. Try organizing your thoughts instead of just typing angrily about a work of fiction.

A lot of what you're complaining about was written to be exactly what you seem upset about. The blood screenings, etc on Earth, the departure from established Federation moral and ethical principles, was written that way to show what a profound effect the Founders, a new type of enemy, could have on humanity.

Adami Winn was a villain the first time she showed up on screen, and Dukat was the antagonist of the story. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Take a deep breath and try again. I think you probably have some good points, you're just not expressing them very clearly.

 

[Melakon]

While there are many threads devoted to Dukat, his evil and his evolution, can an argument be made that Mark Alaimo's character is the real star of the series.

In his interviews, Alaimo seems to heavily promote this idea. It may be a clue to how he approached the character, perhaps imagining Dukat as the star of every scene he was in.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Because the new writers of the show wanted Dukat to be Hitler but never read a history book which shows that Joseph Stalin was 10,000 times worst. Michael Pillar had to have read about Joseph Stalin when making Dukat, Stalin thought the soviet people he oppressed were his kids and if they disobeyed, he didn't bother to gas them or anything like that but punish them. Punish them to point where if he said the sky was pink, they would actually start seeing the sky was pink. Stalin was not a racist like Hitler and he could embody his warped ethics to anyone ANYONE. That was Dukat to a T. You had to be very very very careful with him. The audience never truly saw the atrocities he committed, but look at the responses the cast would have around him. Like Stalin those atrocities were personal and no one would dare speak of them. Kira, the Vedeks, the Bajorans, no one. Why???

Great material was written in the first 3 seasons but some thought it was boring. The writing team was developing a whole new world. I'm glad they took chances, it's sad that ended after "The Adversary".

10, 000 times worse, huh? I knew that Hitler caused the death of approximately 60 million people in only a few years, I never realized that Stalin had killed 600 billion people!

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

While there are many threads devoted to Dukat, his evil and his evolution, can an argument be made that Mark Alaimo's character is the real star of the series.

In his interviews, Alaimo seems to heavily promote this idea. It may be a clue to how he approached the character, perhaps imagining Dukat as the star of every scene he was in.

The thing is that Dukat WAS the star of every scene he was in! He stole the show completely, it was such a compelling character.

 

[Maurice]

Take a deep breath and try again.

Patronize much?

 

[dub]

What would you have done with Dukat? His glory was on the decline, I think his descent into madness made perfect sense. It's a common story among despots, and Trek often follows historical patterns with its major characters. His story had to end somewhere, and although the character wasn't as fun to watch as in the waning moments of his heyday, I think the way this character was written in the latter seasons of DS9 worked well in terms of the narrative.

Well said.

 

[Captain Kathryn]

"Star" is a little bit of a heavy word. He was certainly brilliant. But DS9 has so many supporting characters who are amazing.

I love Jake, but seriously I do not understand why he needed to be in the main credits and not some of the other amazing characters lol. I suppose the reason is because between the 4 or 5 main storylines going on, not all of the great supporting characters could be shown that much and definitely not at the same time. You wouldn't have a Kai Winn episode or a Dukat episode also be a Garak, Rom, Nog, Founder, or Weyoun episode.

If I HAD to pick someone who was supporting and a "star" of DS9, I might say Jeffrey Combs. But Andrew Robinson and Marc Alaimo were so amazing too so I don't know! DS9 did crazy and evil so well.

 

[dub]

I love Jeffrey Combs too. But I can't pick just one!

 

[Captain Kathryn]

True, I changed my post after thinking about it. SO MUCH GOOD EVIL.

 

[JD5000]

As great as Andrew Robinson as Garak and Jeffery Combs as Brunt/Weyoun were, none of those characters drove the overall story in the way Dukat did. Dukat's direct actions caused Sisko to react, who I think is the undisputed main character of the series. The same is true in reverse, many of Sisko's actions caused Dukat to react. These interactions were very central to the Dominion War storyline, as the decisions made by these two people directly affected the lives of billions if not trillions of sentient beings.

Weyoun acted as a gopher - great character, incredibly well-acted, but very little independent influence on the story.

Brunt had a profound influence on the Ferengi storyline and Quark personally. Again, a really great character that you get a full impression of from his first few seconds on screen...."Brunt, FCA..." - all Combs needed was that one line and a few seconds of solo screen time to completely set up the character. Yet - Brunt has no direct influence on the big picture.

Garak - we all LOVE Garak. However, he is ultimately self-serving, and therefore influences his own character arc, and not the overall story shown by the series to any significant degree. The one exception to this is 'In the Pale Moonlight' - Garak definitely directly influences the course of the Dominion War in this one episode. Yet, this is due to a plan Sisko sets in motion, it's almost certain that Garak would not have taken it upon himself to perform the actions he takes in this episode without outside influence.

Jake - Jake has little to no influence on the big story, except in that his presence could influence his father's decisions. I assume his appearance in the main credits is contractual.

 

[Relayer1]

DS9 had some truly great supporting characters/actors, that's one of the reasons why (imho) it's so much better than the other Trek series. Some of them could have been 'promoted' (and some should have been). Dukat and Garak certainly. Weyoun probably.

In other shows they would have been the 'breakout' character, like Spock in TOS.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Even though we didn't see him much, Garak's mentor/father Enabran Tain was very good too! In fact, I think they could have used him more.

 

[STEPhon IT]

[/QUOTE]10, 000 times worse, huh? I knew that Hitler caused the death of approximately 60 million people in only a few years, I never realized that Stalin had killed 600 billion people![/QUOTE]
I don't think Hitler killed 6 million people but he was responsible for the deaths of a lot more, even the people who followed him.

Stalin was worse because he got away with many more atrocities and the Soviet Union were not over thrown. Communism expanded during his reign.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Take a deep breath and try again.

Patronize much?

Very much indeed, since I haven't capitalize every word to give the impression I was angry or yelling.