Starship FARRAGUT: Conspiracy of Innocence
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Randy and his cohorts at Potemkin have consistently responded positively to criticism and done their best to apply the hard lessons they've learned along the way. I will miss Potemkin, but I am really looking forward to seeing Randy's next efforts. I really hope and expect that they will show the results of putting their efforts out there and inviting the criticism.
Thanks, Mike. We're hoping for the best with STARSHIP DEIMOS and STARSHIP TRISTAN.
After reading all these complaints, I understand why most of the people who actually "create" the movies rarely come here to post. Not worth the headache. This place (Fan Productions forum) has become dilettante central.
One of the few who do, James Cowley, spends most of his time shooting down the gossip surrounding Phase II.
Some of the reviews are nothing more than petulant, infantile rants, personal vendettas even. Totally lacking in merit or true critique.
One of the few who do, James Cowley, spends most of his time shooting down the gossip surrounding Phase II.
Some of the reviews are nothing more than petulant, infantile rants, personal vendettas even. Totally lacking in merit or true critique.
Oh, I don't know: I'm here fairly frequently, and I'm pretty solicitous and supportive of criticisms of our productions.
I think most of the feedback here is welcome.
When you put something 'out there' people will criticize, and it will be a mixed bag of the useful and self-important idiocy. The trick is getting the biggest bang for your critique buck, and figuring out what you can learn from commentary.
I'm working on a non-Trek sci fi novel. I've had five or six rounds of reading and re-writing the thing. The first few rounds, the commentary I got from readers was often general, e.g., these two characters meet on page 20, and when they talk again on pg. 75 suddenly they are old friends, how'd that happen? (useful) But I also got, "I would want Adult #1 to take This kid under his wing." I explained to that person there were reasons that was impossible, and anyway Adult #2, another main character, was in a better position to help, had taken that kid under his wing. "Well, you should change the whole world and the whole story you've created because I want Adult #1 to do it." (Not useful).
I also, in contrast to GR, believe in the persistence of culture and institutions, so the largest voluntary organization on Earth, the Roman Catholic Church, still exists. I've had it read by a priest and a few very religious lay Catholics to make sure it rings true to them. I know that there have been huge bestsellers which wildly distort the RC Church, but in Sci Fi, you are already asking people to stretch in other ways. I want to making the world, the characters, and the basic settings feel legit. The priest was great, correcting my theology. Some of the lay Catholics were also great, getting my informal language better, so it sounded more like they sound in their homes. (all very useful) But of course, there was that one guy who wanted to turn the novel into a propaganda machine to evangelize for the RC Church. The lapsed Catholic should be a bad guy, and everyone working for the RC Church should be a perfect person. (I did tone down and rearrange the way the bad apple put things, but it was essential to the story that there be ONE bad apple. In any large organization, there are going to be bad apples.) Overall, I doubt it will make the Church's banned list.
People are going to come to things with their own agendas. At Star Trek Reviewed I welcome people posting comments about films which I consider legitimate criticism. Everything from "I loved this" to "this bored me, it should have been cut to half the length." and "I found the camera work confusing and I couldn't understand what they were saying half the time." to "They should make a new TV show based on this." But I don't allow everything to post, "Joe from Cocomo is a child molester and he kicked me off the project because I threatened to report him." A discussion with people from the project exposes the poster as a guy who was indeed kicked off because he tried to rape one of the actresses. It doesn't post. "Jack is just a bitter old man who made this awful film because no one would let them work with him." Nope. It's not about the film, whether or not it's true. If the guy had just written, "I watched this film and it's awful." I probably would let it post.
One of the elements at play on this board is that some of the folks here are professional filmmakers. Pros often have very strong views about their craft. I mistakenly sent my novel to a publishing pro because I had two characters who had changed religion a few times, and I was looking for somebody who had also changed religion a few times to read it and say if the story rang true to them. I didn't know the person was in publishing. Need I say they didn't get past the first three pages of the 350 page novel (less than any other reader) because they leaped to massive (and entirely false) conclusions about the novel, what the story was, and where it was going based on my 'idiocy.' They suggested I had never read or watched any science fiction and should do so before trying to write some. They even gave a list of novels (every one of which I had read) to introduce me to what sci fi was. One character who was being pushed to be somebody he wasn't had been named by the pusher after an historical figure. The pro reader concluded that the character was going to be a future version of that historical figure... as if he had named himself. Exactly false. She also disparaged the novel as being "A liberal response to the Left Behind series and Atlas Shrugged, that is to say, useless." (I've read NEITHER of those, but I'd love to get HALF the sales of either.) I decided to tone down the ideology, moved the second chapter, which described the physical environment of the story, (each of the opening chapters was less than three pages) into the book, and make more express the conflict among the adults about certain things that she had gone off on a tear about. So, even the person who dismissed me as an idiot, only read three pages, and tore into me about a whole set of false conclusions was useful.
It's a matter of getting out of your own head. And sometimes, even a person who can't get out of THEIR HEAD makes comments that you can use. Nasty comments. Comments which appear irrelevant to your story. But if you try to see why they said them, even they can be useful.
"Dilettante central." That's a pretty blanket statement. Sorry, but that ain't the case.
Sure, you get a few folks who spew negativity for negativity sake's. However, the majority of us in this forum are here to help. We're trying to leverage our skills and know-how to aide these productions. There are several threads here where techniques, tips and tricks are shared. For example:
- Fan Filmmakers Premier
- Fan Film Writer's Primer
- Whatever Happened to Starship Exeter — The Completion of a Fan Film
Some of us work in film or in television. Some are professional writers (such as myself).
As Barbreader noted, that makes us a bit passionate about the craft and that passion can't help but come through in our reviews. We want to help others make their next productions even better than the one before it. We want to challenge them to do better, because we hope someone would also do the same with our work.
Criticism isn't something to be feared. Direct, constructive feedback isn't a thing to run away from. Many of us are not petulant, infantile children. We are not some personal vendetta.
If there is any agenda, it's to further raise the bar that so many fan productions have done already.
Long story short:
The advantage of this place is that it's not just full of regular fans, but also of plenty of like-minded people who have been down this road before and can speak from experience.
Sorry folks, but most of the criticism has little to do with true filmic critique. Thus the dilettante charge.
My post had nothing to do with supporting fanboyism, or inability to handle criticism. It has to do with arrogance/self importance... combined with lack of true ability to critique a movie. Plus the double standard some show, where some movies get hit hard, but other, much worse movies are left alone.
In a much simpler form for those that don't understand. I'ts not the criticism, it's the type and form of criticism. Around here, it's more like a clique of High School mean girls deciding who is and isn't cool.
Gshnitzer, I said most, not "all". I am aware you are here. Thought you would understand that when reading. Many from the other series are here, but will not post.
And I said post, not read.
My post had nothing to do with supporting fanboyism, or inability to handle criticism. It has to do with arrogance/self importance... combined with lack of true ability to critique a movie. Plus the double standard some show, where some movies get hit hard, but other, much worse movies are left alone.
In a much simpler form for those that don't understand. I'ts not the criticism, it's the type and form of criticism. Around here, it's more like a clique of High School mean girls deciding who is and isn't cool.
Gshnitzer, I said most, not "all". I am aware you are here. Thought you would understand that when reading. Many from the other series are here, but will not post.
And I said post, not read.
Jojo, if you're discussing doubleoh's various reviews, the director of "Mind-sifter" and Greg both indicated that they appreciated his feedback. They also discussed with him the critiques with which they disagreed.
His and Maurcie's reviews of the Farragut vignette covered very fundamental issues that even non-industry people like me noticed. And no one was cruel about it.
You say its the "form" of the critique that's problematic, but earlier you made a more blanket statement: "Jeez, sometimes people just want to have fun. All this critique is overdoing it." That would seem to indicate a general aversion to critique.
Regardless, I haven't seen anything wrong with people's comments of late on these various productions. Honestly, I think most of the negativity around here is generated by attacks against genuine discourse.
His and Maurcie's reviews of the Farragut vignette covered very fundamental issues that even non-industry people like me noticed. And no one was cruel about it.
You say its the "form" of the critique that's problematic, but earlier you made a more blanket statement: "Jeez, sometimes people just want to have fun. All this critique is overdoing it." That would seem to indicate a general aversion to critique.
Regardless, I haven't seen anything wrong with people's comments of late on these various productions. Honestly, I think most of the negativity around here is generated by attacks against genuine discourse.
Not going to attack anyone personally. Not the point.
Will not respond to personal attacks either (if they come, which hasn't happened so far)
It is interesting the type of responses that come back.
No one wonders why most of the fan film producers don't post here? Or do people assume the worst?
Will not respond to personal attacks either (if they come, which hasn't happened so far)
It is interesting the type of responses that come back.
No one wonders why most of the fan film producers don't post here? Or do people assume the worst?
Frankly, I don't know what brought this on...A few of us, myself included wrote down our personal appreciation, either negative or positive for Farragut's latest vignette. I fail to see ANY insulting or disrespectful comments made about the short.
By the way, saying something could have been done better is quite a ways away from other websites where extreme levels of ignorant comments rule.
Are you saying that those of us who actually have professional credits on this board should ONLY write ego-stroking comments? What is this, American Idol?
By the way, there are quite a LOT of positive comments written by many here. Positive when warranted...
By the way, saying something could have been done better is quite a ways away from other websites where extreme levels of ignorant comments rule.
Are you saying that those of us who actually have professional credits on this board should ONLY write ego-stroking comments? What is this, American Idol?
By the way, there are quite a LOT of positive comments written by many here. Positive when warranted...
Jojo, I'm here. My zero-budget PROJECT: POTEMKIN offerings receive criticism, both positive and negative. I don't always agree with everything said. Sometimes I think the criticism is more generous than I would have expected (Co Exec Producer Rick Foxx and I are among the harshest critics of our productions). We appreciate the feedback we receive here.
As far as why more producers don't post here, I can tell you. I am friends with many second and third tier production teams. Their productions don't get any notice from most posters here, so why bother expending effort promoting a film series that doesn't get any feedback here, when they can post to Facebook and get beaucoups of feedback?
There's more to fanfilms than the first tier (e.g. NV/P2, STC, Farragut, Exeter), but sadly, many 2nd and 3rd tier productions go ignored here. There's the reason, imo, why most fan film producers don't post here.
As far as why more producers don't post here, I can tell you. I am friends with many second and third tier production teams. Their productions don't get any notice from most posters here, so why bother expending effort promoting a film series that doesn't get any feedback here, when they can post to Facebook and get beaucoups of feedback?
There's more to fanfilms than the first tier (e.g. NV/P2, STC, Farragut, Exeter), but sadly, many 2nd and 3rd tier productions go ignored here. There's the reason, imo, why most fan film producers don't post here.
To be fair, there's nothing stopping any of those other productions coming here and posting. When I have something worth posting about Intrepid, I post it here. Otherwise, I don't. 
I think the genuine, constructive criticism sometimes gets lost amongst the vitriol at places like Trek Movie. And that vitriol makes a lot of fanfilm producers a little gunshy.
On the other hand, I know some of the posters here personally, and I know their tone, so I've never read anything but helpful into their comments.
I do realise how easy it is to misread criticism online, and believe me I've been on both sides of that fence. I think I forever offended Jack Marshall with my review of Come What May when it was released, for example. But that's the thing, what one person thinks is helpful, another sometimes reads as attack. On the other hand, it's not always easy to temper the tone of a review in such a way that it won't give offense. It's a difficult balance, and one few people manage to maintain. I know I'm not very good at it, which is why I limit my critique to people who know me well enough not to take offense.
I think the genuine, constructive criticism sometimes gets lost amongst the vitriol at places like Trek Movie. And that vitriol makes a lot of fanfilm producers a little gunshy.
On the other hand, I know some of the posters here personally, and I know their tone, so I've never read anything but helpful into their comments.
I do realise how easy it is to misread criticism online, and believe me I've been on both sides of that fence. I think I forever offended Jack Marshall with my review of Come What May when it was released, for example. But that's the thing, what one person thinks is helpful, another sometimes reads as attack. On the other hand, it's not always easy to temper the tone of a review in such a way that it won't give offense. It's a difficult balance, and one few people manage to maintain. I know I'm not very good at it, which is why I limit my critique to people who know me well enough not to take offense.
Well said, Nick. Thank you for putting into words many of my feelings.
I think this forum largely manages to walk a fine line between places where only positive comments are allowed (and negative ones mysteriously disappear) and those where bashing is de rigueur. There are plenty of places where the comments are either fulsome or fetid, and I like that here people are largely in the middle and discuss pros and cons. Not much in the way of personal attacks. Usually it's the work which gets taken apart, not the people, as it should be.
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I agree. I think there are exceptions, but as I said up thread, I also think the attitudes people encounter in other places colour their impressions (rightly or wrongly) of some of the feedback here.
As ever, your mileage may vary.
As ever, your mileage may vary.
Sounds a bit like self-fulfilling prophecy. If more producers would post here about their project, I think we all would benefit. Surely not all will watch them or even like them, but at least be aware of them.
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