Stand by for evasive!

[EnriqueH]

When I was 15 or so, my friends and I would laugh at Captain Esteban and his supposed ineptness.

*Stand by* for evasive??? Stand by? When you're about to be attacked?

Why didn't he just warp out of there? Or why not actually say, "Evasive!" instead of the passive "stand by for evasive"?

Of course, these days I'm much older and I can kind of shrug it off as, "Well, Esteban was on the scientific side of things and was overwhelmed, or didn't know how to react when ambushed or under attack."

Did anyone else feel this way, or have an in-universe (or whatever you call it) explanation for this?

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

^He may have been waiting for the BOP to make the first move before attempting an evasive maneuver, but never got the chance after the torpedo hit caused a warp-core breach.

--Sran

 

[EnriqueH]

^He may have been waiting for the BOP to make the first move before attempting an evasive maneuver, but never got the chance after the torpedo hit caused a warp-core breach.

--Sran

Hmmm.

He was looking to make a counter move, but the BoP attack was stronger than anticipated.

Huh, I like that explanation! Thanks, Sran.

 

[T'Girl]

It's possible that that starship was incapable of just suddenly engaging in evasive maneuvers and some preparations did need to be made first. It wasn't a combat starship.

The impulse engines first had to be reactivated, which took a little time, something like that.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Hmmm.

He was looking to make a counter move, but the BoP attack was stronger than anticipated.

Huh, I like that explanation! Thanks, Sran.

You're welcome (and sorry about the other thread)! I'll add that as the Grissom wasn't a heavy-cruiser like the Enterprise or a frigate like the Reliant or the Bozeman, she may not have had the same maneuverability or speed capabilities; someone like Kirk, Terrell or Bateson may have tried to outrun the BOP or immediately open fire (because they could), whereas Esteban was limited to ducking when the schoolyard bully threw the first punch.

--Sran

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It's possible that that starship was incapable of just suddenly engaging in evasive maneuvers and some preparations did need to be made first. It wasn't a combat starship.

Then again, there was an Oberth-class ship engaged in the Borg battle in the opening of ST: First Contact (before the arrival of the Defiant). FWIW.

As for the Grissom: I agree that it's unfair to lay all this on Esteban and his obvious inexperience with combat, but come on...this is Project Genesis for crying out loud. They should have sent a ship with a more experienced commander. Genesis was so sensitive, politically and militarily, that they shouldn't have sent some pure science vessel. At least give them an armed military escort!

 

[EnriqueH]

It's possible that that starship was incapable of just suddenly engaging in evasive maneuvers and some preparations did need to be made first. It wasn't a combat starship.

Then again, there was an Oberth-class ship engaged in the Borg battle in the opening of ST: First Contact (before the arrival of the Defiant). FWIW.

This can be explained away easily that these ships were upgraded in the 70 years since TSFS.

As for the Grissom: I agree that it's unfair to lay all this on Esteban and his obvious inexperience with combat, but come on...this is Project Genesis for crying out loud. They should have sent a ship with a more experienced commander. Genesis was so sensitive, politically and militarily, that they shouldn't have sent some pure science vessel. At least give them an armed military escort!

I felt the same way, but somebody here explained that Genesis was within Federation territory and that there was no reason to assume that the Klingons would cross the Neutral Zone.

I'm not sure if there are any holes in this explanation, but it seems reasonable to me.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ The unique nature of Genesis made it perfectly likely that any hostile race WOULD cross the Neutral Zone. They'd want Genesis so much that they'd break God knows how many laws to get it.

 

[EnriqueH]

^ The unique nature of Genesis made it perfectly likely that any hostile race WOULD cross the Neutral Zone. They'd want Genesis so much that they'd break God knows how many laws to get it.

Yeah, I don't disagree with you.

Maybe Starfleet wanted to make it a point that they were interested in scientific exploration and thought a military presence would enhance hostilities rather than dissuade them?

 

[Lance]

Did anyone else feel this way, or have an in-universe (or whatever you call it) explanation for this?

Captain Esteban is an idiot. There's your in-universe explanation right there.

 

[EnriqueH]

Did anyone else feel this way, or have an in-universe (or whatever you call it) explanation for this?

Captain Esteban is an idiot. There's your in-universe explanation right there.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

As for the Grissom: I agree that it's unfair to lay all this on Esteban and his obvious inexperience with combat, but come on...this is Project Genesis for crying out loud. They should have sent a ship with a more experienced commander. Genesis was so sensitive, politically and militarily, that they shouldn't have sent some pure science vessel. At least give them an armed military escort!

I agree. I can understand Starfleet wanting to keep the project under wraps, but I never understood why they had such a problem with Kirk taking the Enterprise back there (for any reason, Spock or no Spock) after her repairs were finished. The Enterprise crew was already read-in on Genesis due to the incident with Khan, so it's not as though anyone new would have had access to classified information, and Kirk may have been able to help Esteban when the Klingons showed up.

--Sran

 

[EnriqueH]

Yeah, it's never made clear why they didn't want Kirk to go back, but it could be because of Kirk's proximity to the project? Kirk was involved in the Genesis explosion, he created the report that leaked, his presence could've been interpreted as a military operation by Starfleet's enemies. Kirk may have been deemed "too controversial" to be part of the exploratory part of this.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I thought it was just because of Kirk's obvious loyalty to Spock - their friendship might have, in Starfleet's judgment, compromised Kirk's ability to remain objective.

 

[EnriqueH]

That too.

You know what just occurs to me?

I wonder if Starfleet really had the intention of retiring the Enterprise?

What if that was just an excuse to keep Kirk and company grounded while they figured out the implications of this whole Genesis thing? And the Enterprise being old and mothballed was just a way of telling Kirk to sit this one out without stirring too much crap.

Chekov: "Will we get another ship?"
Kirk: "I can't get an answer."

Kirk: I'll hire a ship."
Morrow: "...the council has decided that no one but the science team goes to Genesis."

It all seems rather politically motivated while designed to keep controversy to a minimum. Both in and out of Starfleet.

 

[austen_pierce]

As for the Grissom: I agree that it's unfair to lay all this on Esteban and his obvious inexperience with combat, but come on...this is Project Genesis for crying out loud. They should have sent a ship with a more experienced commander. Genesis was so sensitive, politically and militarily, that they shouldn't have sent some pure science vessel. At least give them an armed military escort!

I agree. I can understand Starfleet wanting to keep the project under wraps, but I never understood why they had such a problem with Kirk taking the Enterprise back there (for any reason, Spock or no Spock) after her repairs were finished. The Enterprise crew was already read-in on Genesis due to the incident with Khan, so it's not as though anyone new would have had access to classified information, and Kirk may have been able to help Esteban when the Klingons showed up.

I don't think they could wait for Enterprise to be repaired. On the other hand, Kirk does say that most of their battle damage has been repaired, prior to their arrival at Earth. Then again, the crew was decidedly battle weary and in need of rest. Enterprise herself still needed cosmetic repairs, at the very least.

But there is just no excuse for leaving the Genesis planet unprotected. Given the emerging controversy, there should have been several "federation battle cruisers" hanging out in Mutara sector, just waiting for anyone to start some shit. Excelsior is too new, so she's not a candidate, but what happened to all those other ships mentioned in TMP? Engaged in the Laurentian system? (couldn't resist )

I thought it was just because of Kirk's obvious loyalty to Spock - their friendship might have, in Starfleet's judgment, compromised Kirk's ability to remain objective.

The same Starfleet which sent Kirk out to welcome the Klingons in TUC??? I think you are giving them waaaaayyy to much credit.

That too.
Kirk: I'll hire a ship."
Morrow: "...the council has decided that no one but the science team goes to Genesis."

Again, the worst way to ensure a site remains secure is to declare it off limits, then post NO guards.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I thought it was just because of Kirk's obvious loyalty to Spock - their friendship might have, in Starfleet's judgment, compromised Kirk's ability to remain objective.

The same Starfleet which sent Kirk out to welcome the Klingons in TUC???

In that case, it was because Spock himself volunteered the Enterprise for that purpose.

 

[austen_pierce]

I thought it was just because of Kirk's obvious loyalty to Spock - their friendship might have, in Starfleet's judgment, compromised Kirk's ability to remain objective.

The same Starfleet which sent Kirk out to welcome the Klingons in TUC???

In that case, it was because Spock himself volunteered the Enterprise for that purpose.

Forgot about that. Still.. would have been a more sincere olive branch without Kirk in command. But you just don't make that movie.

 

[Timo]

I don't really see where this "Esteban was inexperienced" thing comes from. We hear Esteban command "stand by evasive", and somehow this is supposed to indicate he didn't command "raise shields" or "arm phasers" previously? Why? The action cuts between two scenes, so obviously we're going to miss bits of dialogue there.

OTOH, it would be standard WWII fare for a captain threatened by U-boat attack to wait for the last second to make his defensive move. He generally has little or nothing he can use to directly oppose the enemy, but surprise is his best weapon against the extremely clumsy U-boat, for which the cloaked BoP is a pretty good analogue. "Evasive" alone would get him nowhere, as the enemy would just wait, observe, and then attack, but surprising the enemy with evasion once he has already committed to a course of action might buy Esteban enough time to, say, jump to warp in a direction exactly opposite to the one Kruge was expecting. Not that this would allow Esteban to escape for good, but it might at least allow him to get outside the jamming range...

Forgot about that. Still.. would have been a more sincere olive branch without Kirk in command. But you just don't make that movie.

Two different scenarios. In one, the Feds want to tread lightly because the Klingons might go to war and win. In another, the Feds want to humiliate the Klingons because a war would assuredly lead to the UFP triumphing.

Not that much would have factually changed between the two scenarios. But the belief that the UFP would be triumphant was first expressed in TUC, and it would be quite plausible for politicians to suddenly start believing in such a thing even without anything factual to back it up. (And in TUC, the Romulans, a supposed deciding vote in the eternal struggle between superpowers, did seem to be friendly with the Feds for a change. Combined with the Praxis explosion and Gorkon's soft policies, this would be enough reason to start thinking that a hardcore approach might work for a change.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Forgot about that. Still.. would have been a more sincere olive branch without Kirk in command. But you just don't make that movie.

"There is an old Vulcan proverb: only Nixon could go to China."

When trying to convince an enemy of the seriousness of your efforts to establish a lasting peace, a hard-liner like Kirk is exactly the sort of person you send, as it convinces the hard-liners of the opposition that your desire for cooperation is genuine and not a ploy to gain a tactical advantage (which is precisely what Cartwright wanted to happen).

Whatever concerns there may have been about Kirk (his willingness to follow orders, his prior history with the Klingons, etc.), Spock recognized that for James T. Kirk, duty always won out, regardless of the personal cost to Kirk; the one exception to that rule was TSFS, during which Kirk decided that his duty to his friends was more important than his oath to Starfleet ("If I hadn't tried, the cost would have my soul.").

Without knowing precisely what Spock told the admiralty or the Federation Council when he volunteered Kirk and the Enterprise for the mission, I imagine he spoke of his long friendship with Kirk, as well as the many hardships the two men had faced together--both professional and personal--and his friend's willingness to always put the well-being of others before his own. Kirk was the perfect choice as the Federation's olive branch--because of his history with both Starfleet and the Klingons--not in spite of said history.

--Sran