Reunion...and repercussions

[Unicron]

^ It's also worth mentioning that Worf tried to help Kurn end his life in "Sons of Mogh," believing that there was no alternative, and Sisko wasn't happy with his actions (to put it mildly ). As far as he was concerned, such actions would definitely be over the line regardless of how their native culture perceives them.

 

[JD5000]

I think it's a matter of jurisdiction. When Worf attempts to help Kurn commit suicide aboard DS9, Sisko makes it pretty clear to Worf that if the attempt has succeeded, Worf would be facing murder charges.

EDIT: Jinx, Unwrapped. I owe you a Coke.

 

[doubleohfive]

^ It's also worth mentioning that Worf tried to help Kurn end his life in "Sons of Mogh," believing that there was no alternative, and Sisko wasn't happy with his actions (to put it mildly ). As far as he was concerned, such actions would definitely be over the line regardless of how their native culture perceives them.

Exactly. Likewise, when Worf himself asked Riker to assist in the former's ritual suicide in "Ethics." Riker, for better or worse, refused him. Because humans view assisted suicide as too close to actual murder.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

^ Worf must be a Klingon citizen, or whatever passes for same in Klingon society; his parents were Klingons, he is a member of a very influential Klingon house, and he was born on a Klingon world.

That's assuming (A) the Klingons allow dual citizenship, and (B) Discommendation didn't strip him of it.

(Plus he is allowed to claim the Right of Vengeance in "Reunion", which is presumably limited to Klingon citizens.)

How do you figure? Everything else about the Klingon Code of Honor is open to aliens who have the guts to participate -- we saw that when Riker served on the Pagh, when Quark married Grilka, and numerous times with Dax. If Duras had killed Data and Geordi showed up to claim the Right of Vengeance, I'm sure the Klingons would've laughed at him then handed him a bat'leth.

 

[Timo]

It's also worth mentioning that Worf tried to help Kurn end his life in "Sons of Mogh," believing that there was no alternative, and Sisko wasn't happy with his actions (to put it mildly ). As far as he was concerned, such actions would definitely be over the line regardless of how their native culture perceives them.

...Whereas in "Half a Life", the situation is the opposite - an alien balks at euthanasia, but Picard feels it's the right of the alien culture to pursue the practice because it's their thing. This despite the would-be victim actually not giving his consent in this case!

There don't seem to be set policies, let alone laws, in the Federation for most of the things we would consider in definite need of regulation. Not only are various member cultures allowed to practice their odd ways, but individuals within a species and even within a highly formalized subculture can hold opposite views - say, Picard vs. Riker on killing. Heck, even a single character can flip-flop, what with Riker considering assisted suicide the right thing to do in "Vengeance Factor" but the wrong thing to do in "Ethics": it's the circumstances and details that matter, not any overarching principles.

Basically, people in Star Trek hold moral views, instead of outsourcing them to societies. Combine that with the fact that crime carries no punishment but instead is followed by cure (regardless of whether the crime is petty or the "crimes against existence of universe" sort), and you see the role of law diminish a lot, or perhaps disappear altogether. Where does that leave Picard? In a position to condone murder when he sees fit, it seems.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Orphalesion]

Obviously Starfleet has a prohibition against murder. But when Worf killed Duras, it wasn't murder, it was a duel. We don't know, exactly, what Starfleet regs have to say about consensual duels. Especially when they're carried out in accordance with local laws and traditions, which this one was.

I agree, if the Vulcans can have their duels to the death, so can the Klingons. Everything else would be hypocritical.

As for Worf sending Alexander to live with his Grandparents on Earth....
I'm in two minds about that really. Yet I am inclined to hold this decision in Worf's favor rather than against him.
Worf, in many ways, hadn't fully become a grown-up at that point and had just met his son, had no idea how to raise a child (especially as a single parent) and was in a line of work where he knew he might be killed any day.
Poor Alexander had just lost his mother, perhaps Worf did not want for his son to build up an emotional attachment to him only then to die and leave Alexander all alone again.

In my eyes it was the better decision to send Alexander to the Rhozhenkos so that he could build up an emotional connection to family that were less likely to be killed.
I would be tempted to call it an emotionally mature decision, but the way I see Worf at that point he did it as much for Alexander as out of his own fear of suddenly being a father and an attempt to dodge that responsibility (at least for a time)

It would be nice to know what, in the end led to Worf changing his mind and deciding to raise Alexander himself.

On that matter, did Worf ever raise Alexander full-time? There are a lot of Worf episodes where Alexander is nowhere to be found.
Perhaps there was a sort of shared custody between Worf and the Rhozhenkos? I could easily imagine Alexander living with Worf during school holidays or whenever the Enterprise was close enough to Earth t transfer him easily.

 

[Timo]

There's also the issue that Klingons are supposed to mature fast, and indeed Alexander becomes an able-bodied frontline warrior at age eight already. How much care would a Klingon boy really require, physically or emotionally?

We admittedly know little about how Klingons do these things. Family ties for the average Klingon might be close and complex; perhaps the father and the son rarely meet, yet neither spends much time removed from the broader family that includes relatives, adoptees and (for the nobles at least) various House staff?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Oh yeah, I forgot about the Vulcans. D'oh!

That's a good point: If the death duels that are part of pon farr are allowed under Federation law, then why is Worf being taken to task for killing Duras?

 

[Ithekro]

At least two founding members of the Federation have duels to the death. Vulcan and Andoria.

 

[Timo]

And Ardana has slavery; when Kirk interfered with that, the locals threatened to complain to the UFP.

Okay, so Kirk interfered without knowing enough yet to expose the slavery. But had the Stratosians carried out their threat, that would certainly have meant exposure. So, pure bluff, or indication that the UFP would have allowed the Ardanan situation to remain unchanged?

With Ardana and Vulcan both, the UFP might have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy: generally, murder and slavery is frowned upon, but it can be filed under "freedom of religion/culture" and let stand if that's what's politically more convenient.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lance]

As per Worf's citizenship as discussed upthread, and forgive me if I'm misremembering here, but wasn't it established somewhere that he spent time on the Klingon homeworld at some point in his childhood? Even if only briefly? I'm sure I remember something about that. I could certainly imagine him undertaking such a sojurn "home" when he later came of age, encouraged by his human foster parents to live on Qo'nos and partake in his heritage and customs more fully.

Worf is always an outsider to both cultures. He's certainly more humanistic than many Klingons, while also being much more spiritually aligned with his own people than he is with humans. There's a "nature or nurture?" discussion that could certainly be had about him.

 

[Orphalesion]

^ According to Memory Alpha he did live on Qo'nos in his late teens to undergo his initiation as a Warrior, but it seems to me that was before the writers decided that Klingons mature faster. Otherwise a thirteen year old Worf would likely not have been allowed to play in his school's soccer team...

And yes, I would even go so far as call Worf more human than Klingon really. He wasn't like other Klingons but had this idealized idea of how a Klingon Warrior should/would behave.

I really love that character, he's very interesting and faceted.

 

[Mojochi]

I've always considered Worf having dual citizenship, at least where the Federation is concerned. With the discommendation & all, there's probably been periods where it was not recognized by the Klingons, but it still doesn't negate his cultural rights as recognized by the Federation. As a Klingon, born on that world, & residing there during his life, in a duel he's still got the right to execute Duras, and as long as they aren't contesting it, it makes sense it would stand

That said, it may be a small stretch, but as his commanding officer, Picard has the authority to push regulations, and reprimand him. Worf, who's assigned to the Enterprise, has no reason to be over on the Klingon ship. The Klingons aboard the Enterprise were actually being escorted by security details. This was not a come and go as you please assignment.

By his own admission, Kempek had been murdered, & both parties were under investigation. The Enterprise security chief, who'd just been witness to a murder aboard ship, left his post to go act independently on the matter. That's actionable. He has duties onboard the Enterprise, that he neglected, and knowingly abandoned his post (removed his communicator) without notifying anyone. Just because he has a right to duel under Klingon law, doesn't mean he has a right to abandon his post to do it.

I do agree it seemed a bit off to have him send away his son, after it was literally the dying wish of the mother that they be united. No wonder Alexander was such a little shit after that. Worf immediately pissed all over her dying wish

However, I always liked this earlier aspect of Worf's, where he'd do things that were somewhat rogue in nature, like his behavior in The Enemy. I really think we lost something awesome when they stopped doing that with him, & homogenized him or made his behavior more of a joke. He was much more unpredictable in the earlier seasons because of that. Made him more interesting, because hey.... maybe Worf won't do the right thing, or maybe we'll have to struggle with how right or wrong it is. Good stuff there

 

[EnriqueH]

Worf sending Alexander off, to me, contradicts his very persona: brave, honorable, dutiful.

Owning up to being Alexander's father would've been the honorable thing, not to mention brave. And I can't believe that none of his friends tried to talk him out of it: Picard, Riker, Troi, LaForge.

It's been a couple of days and I can't help but still feel disappointed at Worf.

I wish there had been a plot point or reason that I missed to justify it, but I don't think so: Worf punked out.

 

[JD5000]

Worf is a character rife with contradictions, the contradictions in his personality are pointed out often, especially by Troi. To accept Worf as a compelling character is to accept these contradictions as part of the narrative. He's not a real person. I think you are supposed to be disappointed with his decision to send Alexander away.

...persona: brave, honorable, dutiful.

Pretty one-dimensional, and not very interesting.

The fact that you are disappointed in the character and not the writers indicates that this was an effective plot point.

 

[doubleohfive]

Worf sending Alexander off, to me, contradicts his very persona: brave, honorable, dutiful.

Owning up to being Alexander's father would've been the honorable thing, not to mention brave. And I can't believe that none of his friends tried to talk him out of it: Picard, Riker, Troi, LaForge.

It's been a couple of days and I can't help but still feel disappointed at Worf.

I wish there had been a plot point or reason that I missed to justify it, but I don't think so: Worf punked out.

Except that there was a plot point and reason. Worf felt that he was unable to provide a decent life for Alexander on the Enterprise. He had no experience being a parent and had only just shortly prior had discovered he was a parent to begin with.

Your assertion that Worf "punked out" is wrongheaded and shortsighted. Are you sure you're not just imposing what YOU would do in his place? Because that's one thing, but it's another to ascribe such a negative connotation to Worf's actions, when they were perfectly understandable at the time.

Why don't Picard or the others talk him out of it? Probably because it was none of their goddamn business. I'm not saying it was the right choice, but it was a legitimate story choice for the character to make precisely because it does make us debate it and possibly even be unhappy about it, the same way it was a perfectly legitimate choice for Worf to not donate the needed blood so that the dying Romulan in "The Enemy" could be saved.

Besides, as I mentioned before, it's a moot point since we all know less than a year later, Alexander wound up coming to live with Worf on the Enterprise anyway.

Worf is a character rife with contradictions, the contradictions in his personality are pointed out often, especially by Troi. To accept Worf as a compelling character is to accept these contradictions as part of the narrative. He's not a real person. I think you are supposed to be disappointed with his decision to send Alexander away.

...persona: brave, honorable, dutiful.

Pretty one-dimensional, and not very interesting.

The fact that you are disappointed in the character and not the writers indicates that this was an effective plot point.

Exactly so.

 

[Mojochi]

Except that there was a plot point and reason. Worf felt that he was unable to provide a decent life for Alexander on the Enterprise. He had no experience being a parent and had only just shortly prior had discovered he was a parent to begin with.

Your assertion that Worf "punked out" is wrongheaded and shortsighted. Are you sure you're not just imposing what YOU would do in his place? Because that's one thing, but it's another to ascribe such a negative connotation to Worf's actions, when they were perfectly understandable at the time.

Why don't Picard or the others talk him out of it? Probably because it was none of their goddamn business. I'm not saying it was the right choice, but it was a legitimate story choice for the character to make precisely because it does make us debate it and possibly even be unhappy about it, the same way it was a perfectly legitimate choice for Worf to not donate the needed blood so that the dying Romulan in "The Enemy" could be saved.

Besides, as I mentioned before, it's a moot point since we all know less than a year later, Alexander wound up coming to live with Worf on the Enterprise anyway.

Worf is a character rife with contradictions, the contradictions in his personality are pointed out often, especially by Troi. To accept Worf as a compelling character is to accept these contradictions as part of the narrative. He's not a real person. I think you are supposed to be disappointed with his decision to send Alexander away.

...persona: brave, honorable, dutiful.

Pretty one-dimensional, and not very interesting.

The fact that you are disappointed in the character and not the writers indicates that this was an effective plot point.

Exactly so.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I truly loved the unpredictability that Worf had in those times. Some of the best conflict they ever did with him

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In my eyes it was the better decision to send Alexander to the Rhozhenkos so that he could build up an emotional connection to family that were less likely to be killed.

I honestly don't know what I'd have done in Worf's place, but I can totally see why he did it. Not only did Worf believe - probably rightly so - that the Rozhenkos could raise Alexander better than he could, it's simply that starship duty is dangerous. Sure, there's families on the ship, but I doubt Worf ever thought that was a good idea anyway.

If Alexander had remained, there's a good chance that he'd have been injured or killed in battle. Worf, being a Klingon, always thinks about battle first. He's thinking, Is this ship going to get into a fight and get my son killed? Especially since that's exactly what happened to K'Ehleyr (albeit that was just Duras who killed her).

On that matter, did Worf ever raise Alexander full-time? There are a lot of Worf episodes where Alexander is nowhere to be found.

I'm sure Alexander had friends on the ship (like 'Eric', whom we see in a few episodes) who he could hang around with while Worf was on duty. Plus Alexander would have classes to attend as well.

 

[Timo]

Worf, being a Klingon, always thinks about battle first. He's thinking, Is this ship going to get into a fight and get my son killed?

But wouldn't his next thought be "And that will be glorious! I'll be the proudest Klingon father who ever lived!"?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lance]

I think Worf's decision to offload Alexander was made prematurely. That's kind of why the Rozhenko's turn up again a year later and tell him "You made the wrong call, he should be here with you".

We could further hypothesize that the reason Alexander is a little screwed up when he eventually turned up again in DS9, apart from being basically the Klingon equivalent of a bratty teen, is that he's carrying around all the baggage of his childhood: losing his mother, being moved around from a foster family to his father, plus the fact that Worf seemingly abandoned him again after 1701-D bit the big one.