Reliant's weaponry in STII:TWOK

[Timo]

I'm sure he could figure out what systems were likely affected and which ship had the advantage.

He's making his comments after both sides have engaged in repairs. He should realize he will be in error about what Khan has achieved, as he doesn't even know what Khan would wish to achieve - power, weapons, drive, shields...

The margin of error might not matter, though, if he can be certain the damage to their own ship was far more devastating than the damage they dished out. But this makes one wonder why Khan withdrew.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Richard Baker]

When the Reliant fired on the Enterprise the first time Khan could take his time and aim for the most critical area to damage the ship. Just about every shot fired by either vessel was done under different circumstances- mostly firing wildly hoping to hit something. The 'warning shot' torpedo was a deliberate aim and rather a waste- he should have targeted the impulse engines instead, that way he could have prevented Kirk from getting to the Nebula at all.

 

[Timo]

Or then it was no warning shot, but an attempt to blow Kirk to smithereens. The Reliant had lost "photon controls", and would never score a torpedo hit again; possibly those controls could not be repaired.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marsden]

I thought it was an attempt to hit Enterprise's engines and was a near miss. The torpedoes are not shown to be self tracking or course correcting, so a miss is a miss. Explain it to him is open to interpretation, but I think explain it to him by destroying his engines is a possible interpretation.

Also, it's very likely the Enterprise had no shields at all, or no power to use them and move, so that is why the nebula equalized them.

Reliant clearly outclassed Enterprise at that point because a shielded ship is much better than an unshielded one.

 

[Tomalak]

Also, it's very likely the Enterprise had no shields at all, or no power to use them and move, so that is why the nebula equalized them.

Reliant clearly outclassed Enterprise at that point because a shielded ship is much better than an unshielded one.

Saavik specifically states that a danger of entering the nebula is that the shields wouldn't function. If they didn't work anyway, she wouldn't bother to point that out, surely?

I suspect they did have at least some power for the shields, but Scotty was clear that the delicate jury-rigging he'd done wouldn't take much to knock out - "don't give me too many bumps!"

In the nebula, neither would have shields or sensors, so Kirk would gamble on his experience as a captain, and that of his crew, to get the better of Khan.

 

[Maurice]

...The margin of error might not matter, though, if he can be certain the damage to their own ship was far more devastating than the damage they dished out. But this makes one wonder why Khan withdrew.

JOACHIM: We can't fire, sir!

In short, Kirk's attack blew out their weapons and they couldn't risk hanging around in case Kirk could manage a few more shots.

 

[Timo]

Which should then make Spock estimate that damage to the Reliant had been quite crippling in terms of fighting ability. Khan recovering from that faster than the Enterprise recovered from her own wounds would then be far from certain. So why would Khan "outgun" Kirk, in Spock's estimation?

Spock's insistence that Khan has the upper hand should hopefully stem from something he can measure. But he can't measure the Reliant at that time, not very reliably - if he could, this would already mean the Enterprise is in better shape than Khan's ship which assuredly cannot measure the repair status of Kirk's ship!

If he could measure the Reliant at the conclusion of the initial fight (dubious with the power loss on Enterprise systems), he might establish that the damage to her weapons is easily repairable, even counting in Khan's inexperience. But this doesn't sound like something that would make Spock speak with such confidence.

I'd still prefer something inherent in the design of the Reliant to be the cause of the confidence...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

Or Spock had access to the sensors on the Regula I space station to know what on Reliant was functional and where it was relative to Enterprise.

 

[Maurice]

The fact of the matter is you're set on the idea of the Reliant being bad-assier than the Enterprise and nothing is going to convince you otherwise, so there's no point in further discussion on this point.

 

[drt]

It's probably not a question of firepower per se, but power for firing.

Enterprise had her main energizer damaged, while Spock knew they'd only damaged Reliant's impulse deck. Therefore, assuming roughly equivalent power generation under normal conditions, Reliant would likely have more power available for weapons and shields, as her power generation facilities were less damaged, so be capable of "outgunning" Enterprise.

 

[FormerLurker]

And as Ithekro said, Spock stated they had used Regula I's sensors to scan for Reliant. Khan wouldn't care if a space station scanned his ship, he probably assumed they did so all the time. What he wouldn't know is that another ship could piggyback that sensor sweep into their own array, and be able to use whatever information they found there.

 

[SicOne]

...And the jury is still very much out on whether Kirk reported anything at all.

I'd like to think that once Spock entered the prefix code, he triggered every dirty trick he possibly could aboard the enemy-controlled ship, short of those that would be fatal to possible hostages or endanger the entire starship. It's just that most of those tricks failed, either because Khan had preempted them (he would be painfully aware of the stun gas in particular!) or because Khan's crew only inhabited a tiny part of the ship and Spock's blows hit empty air or even vacuum.

Indeed, I'd think that after the "Space Seed" experience, Khan would mechanically disable stun gas dispensers in the parts of the ship controlled by his forces, and slave the rest to his manual control.

Timo Saloniemi

Heh, good points. Guess if I was Khan, I'd probably be snoozing away on the bridge along with the rest of the augments as the away team beamed in post-neurazine. Nice hijack, there, SicOne. Away you go.

I would think Kirk would have reported the existence of the augments, and that he had put them on Ceti Alpha 5 at his discretion as a starship captain in the midst of an exploration mission. If he hadn't reported them, some follow-on exploration program ships might have encountered Khan and his folks on CA5 and not been so fortunate as Kirk, lives would be lost and shit disturbed. With proper reporting and concurrence with the higher-ups, Ceti Alpha 5 could have been declared off-limits. I seem to remember that Picard did something like that in the first season, to the planet that the tar creature who killed Tasha Yar lived on, with no (or little) controversy.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

And as Ithekro said, Spock stated they had used Regula I's sensors to scan for Reliant. Khan wouldn't care if a space station scanned his ship, he probably assumed they did so all the time. What he wouldn't know is that another ship could piggyback that sensor sweep into their own array, and be able to use whatever information they found there.

Can you remind me of the line where Spock said he used the station's sensors?

 

[Trimm]

And as Ithekro said, Spock stated they had used Regula I's sensors to scan for Reliant. Khan wouldn't care if a space station scanned his ship, he probably assumed they did so all the time. What he wouldn't know is that another ship could piggyback that sensor sweep into their own array, and be able to use whatever information they found there.

Can you remind me of the line where Spock said he used the station's sensors?

That bit is from the novelization, and I think it may be in the script but don't quote me on that. It is not stated on screen.

 

[FormerLurker]

And as Ithekro said, Spock stated they had used Regula I's sensors to scan for Reliant. Khan wouldn't care if a space station scanned his ship, he probably assumed they did so all the time. What he wouldn't know is that another ship could piggyback that sensor sweep into their own array, and be able to use whatever information they found there.

Can you remind me of the line where Spock said he used the station's sensors?

That bit is from the novelization, and I think it may be in the script but don't quote me on that. It is not stated on screen.

Perhaps you're right.

 

[Ithekro]

It is a logical conclusion since Spock did have a tactical display of where Reliant was relative to Enterprise on the other side of the planet. Khan did not have a clue were Enterprise was, so we can assume either Enterprise has better sensors, or Spock used Regula I's sensors to locate Reliant, since that was were Reliant was about the time Kirk beamed back aboard.

 

[Timo]

The fact of the matter is you're set on the idea of the Reliant being bad-assier than the Enterprise and nothing is going to convince you otherwise, so there's no point in further discussion on this point.

Naah. I'm just pointing out the glaring weaknesses in your arguments about how some other explanation must be the more likely one. It's extremely difficult to see how Spock could assess the ongoing situation objectively and realistically, but we should expect this one character to be objective and realistic. So the mechanism by which Spock convinces himself of the things he then reports to Kirk is interesting to the extreme. And if the writing of the movie doesn't offer Spock enough data, then the data must come from things not written in. One possible explanation is that Spock read the specs of the opposing ship from a database; the other is that he read them from his sensors.

Personally, I hate the idea that the rollbar phasers, physically the smallest aboard the two ships (save for Kirk's shuttlebay phasers), would somehow have more firepower than the triplets of double banks on the saucer surfaces. Khan's superiority hopefully stems from some other fact. But that's just a side issue in the hunt for the means by which Spock is aware of the (current or inherent) difference.

Khan did not have a clue were Enterprise was

Sure he did. The Enterprise had just moments ago delivered Kirk to Regula, so she must be nearby, and there aren't all that many places for her to hide. Khan listens in on transmissions from her, which should already give him an easy fix. But nothing suggests Khan wouldn't have had the exact same sort of tactical display available.

...He's just pleasantly surprised later on that Kirk's ship actually has set sail ("Thar' she blows!") and has become worthy prey, just in time for the big battle now that Khan's own repairs are completed. He couldn't have come hunting for Kirk earlier on, as Joachim was still toiling with the machinery, regardless of whether he knew where Kirk was or not. I'd surmise he only snuck next to Regula I after seeing that Kirk's ship was not there, considering his own ship's state of disrepair...

That tactical display tells little or nothing about the opposing ship as such. We get one parameter: "Orb Z". And that's pretty much it. Whatever sensor data Spock is getting must be coming through his other instruments, which we don't get to see.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

By the time Kirk beams up and we get the tactical display, it has been two hours since Enterprise was known to be at the Regula I space station, and when Khan gets there, he seemed surprised that it was not there. Spock has managed to keep an eye on Reliant and kept his ship on the opposite side of the planet. Khan doesn't spot Enterprise until it has already left orbit.

 

[Marsden]

Yes, I believe Khan said, "Where is she?" or something like that upon viewing the station.

Spock using the station as a satellite or probe to extend the sensors is logical, but I always just assumed Spock was a better operator of his equipment then Joquim or whoever was using Reliant's equipment. Ability must count for something, I think.

 

[Timo]

I always just assumed Spock was a better operator of his equipment

Agreed. It would be implausible to have Khan outwit Kirk on technological basis: sure, Kirk was a bit lost with all the equipment in ST:TMP, but since then, he has been in touch with such things, while Khan is fifteen years out of date with what little he could comprehend of his last glimpse at 23rd century wizardy.

At the very least, Spock might be able to sense Khan without Khan noticing, and the reverse would fail less due to Khan's inexperience in scanning, and more due to Spock being skilled at noticing when he's being scanned.

Timo Saloniemi