When do a photon Torpedoes first appear?

[HigHurtenflurst]

Doomsday Machine is one of my favorite episodes, and I've always wondered why they weren't tossing torpedoes down the DDM's throat. Obviously they must be a later creation, but does anyone know where/what episode they are first used?

Cheers!

 

[BillJ]

They are mentioned in season one's "Arena".

 

[J.T.B.]

They are mentioned in season one's "Arena".

And fired. The sound effects (War of the Worlds high tension guy-wire) are the same as phaser "proximity blast" in "Balance of Terror," but instead of a kind of jagged, bluish blob it was a smooth reddish blob.

 

[GSchnitzer]

A bit more info in this old thread:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4280738&postcount=33

 

[Nebusj]

Doomsday Machine is one of my favorite episodes, and I've always wondered why they weren't tossing torpedoes down the DDM's throat.

Practically, they couldn't afford photon torpedoes on top of what was surely the most expensive effects episode that season, possibly of the whole series (I'm curious which one was).

Luckily, the writing gave cover: Scott mentions early on that the planet-killer sends out some energy-dampening field that somehow deactivates antimatter. (Somehow, antimatter was a thing you could dampen out in the era of the Original Series.) Given the later rationalization of photon torpedoes as antimatter weapons that gives a reason to suppose they're knocked out so completely nobody even needs mention them.

 

[Green Shirt]

They first appear just after someone pushes the "fire" button.

 

[FormerLurker]

After they clear the launch tube.

 

[Timo]

...Sometimes well after. Which has led people to speculate that torpedoes first plop, drop or swim out of the tubes, glide a little bit, and only then engage their shining propulsion system or whatever. This allows more leeway in speculating where exactly the deployment tubes or chutes might be located.

The same with phasers - they seldom originate from a spot on the hull, and rather "ignite" in open space some distance from the hull. In TOS, that is. See the link in Greg's post.

The affordability of torpedo VFX remained a problem well into the spinoffs, only mutating into new obstacles: the all-CGI battles in late DS9 were practically torpedo-free supposedly because additional flying objects would have increased rendering complexity more than additional beams (a phaser beam is typically much shorter-lived than a torpedo). Those battles were also shield-bubble-free for similar reasons. And it's not as easy to explain those omissions in-universe as it is to say that the torpedoes in "The Doomsday Machine" were rendered useless by the space monster.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Joe_Atari]

A bit more info in this old thread:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4280738&postcount=33

Hadn't seen that old thread; great job with the screenshots!

A couple of notes:

1. As someone in that thread mentioned, the "purple" phasers in "Babel" not only were a color processing error in that one shot, I'm pretty certain it didn't exist in the original airings or syndicated prints. Rather it originated with the mid-'80s remasters. Can anyone confirm with an old syndicated recording?

2. This has been mentioned and debated too, but similarly the torpedo audio effect in "Balance of Terror" was not present originally and was added with the mid-'80s mixes. Not crazy about that particular revision; it just confused the issue on the "proximity phasers" vs. "photon torpedoes" question. I always thought it strange too that IIRC in the original mixes the Enterprise flybys in earlier episodes were accompanied by an audible whoosh or rumble while in later episodes the flybys were (correctly of course) silent.

3. When were photon torpedoes first mentioned in the writers guide? Before or after Arena? For a time were phasers Enterprise's only offensive weapons?

 

[Joe_Atari]

Speaking of Greg's link above, and referencing Tallguy's amazing breakdown at this link:

http://www.trekplace.com/tosfxcatalog.html

...has anyone ever done a breakdown of TOS VFX shots by effects house? I'm talking mainly space-based opticals: ship flybys, planets, weapons fire, etc.

I've always wanted to give credit where its due for how beautiful Enterprise looked in such iconic shots as the phaser firing shot used on the Making of Star Trek cover. The ship looked so vibrant (especially the nacelle caps) starting midway through season 2 when a whole brace of new stock shots were produced as opposed to season 1 where the spinning nacelle caps could barely be seen.

 

[Marsden]

2. This has been mentioned and debated too, but similarly the torpedo audio effect in "Balance of Terror" was not present originally and was added with the mid-'80s mixes. Not crazy about that particular revision; it just confused the issue on the "proximity phasers" vs. "photon torpedoes" question. I always thought it strange too that IIRC in the original mixes the Enterprise flybys in earlier episodes were accompanied by an audible whoosh or rumble while in later episodes the flybys were (correctly of course) silent.

I know this is wrong, but I always assumed those were torpedoes thru that whole running battle. The photons are supposed to have a "proximity fuse" I always thought the phasers were a beam weapon, how can a beam explode? But then I guess the beam energy can be put into a magnetic bottle and launched at the enemy, exploding when the bottle degrades adjusted by the strength of the bottle created. But isn't that the definition of a "torpedo" I never thought there was a physical thing loaded into a launcher until WoK, which is quite a bit after the fact.

As for the original post question: Doomsday Machine was immune to photons because of the neutronium hull and they would be too dangerous to use because if a torpedo bounces off the hull it could damage the ship. At least, that was my understanding.

 

[Ssosmcin]

2. This has been mentioned and debated too, but similarly the torpedo audio effect in "Balance of Terror" was not present originally and was added with the mid-'80s mixes.

Actually, it came with the DVDs in 1999. I have the laserdiscs and VHS prints, and the weapons are silent.

 

[J.T.B.]

2. This has been mentioned and debated too, but similarly the torpedo audio effect in "Balance of Terror" was not present originally and was added with the mid-'80s mixes. Not crazy about that particular revision; it just confused the issue on the "proximity phasers" vs. "photon torpedoes" question.

Thanks for mentioning that, I had forgotten about the silent firing.

I know this is wrong, but I always assumed those were torpedoes thru that whole running battle. The photons are supposed to have a "proximity fuse" I always thought the phasers were a beam weapon, how can a beam explode?

Indeed, but to be fair they also also talk about trying to "detonate" the Romulan beam in BoT! I agree with your reasoning, it makes more sense that way. Just as the escort in The Enemy Below has guns for the surface and depth charges for underwater, it would make sense for Enterprise to have a different kind of weapon that could do damage with a near-miss. Something that can make a pattern of big explosions makes more sense against an invisible enemy than blindly firing the narrow phaser beams. So they had the concept, just not the terminology.

I never thought there was a physical thing loaded into a launcher until WoK, which is quite a bit after the fact.

Me neither.

 

[Timo]

Just as the escort in The Enemy Below has guns for the surface and depth charges for underwater, it would make sense for Enterprise to have a different kind of weapon that could do damage with a near-miss.

Except that it wouldn't. In the movie, the destroyer escort had been designed to hunt submarines, and for this reason was armed with depth charges. In the episode, Starfleet has never even dreamed of "submarines" or invisible enemy starships existing! It would be the height of storytelling illogic for Starfleet ships to be armed with weapons specifically designed to smoke out invisible opponents that cannot be directly targeted.

Now, a rarely used setting for an existing weapon fits the bill a little better - although it would be nice to see that setting used at least once again, against a different adversary, to justify its existence in the first place.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

Except that it wouldn't. In the movie, the destroyer escort had been designed to hunt submarines, and for this reason was armed with depth charges. In the episode, Starfleet has never even dreamed of "submarines" or invisible enemy starships existing! It would be the height of storytelling illogic for Starfleet ships to be armed with weapons specifically designed to smoke out invisible opponents that cannot be directly targeted.

Good point. No matter what they're called, though, the two "weapons" still existed -- one exploding, one not -- to parallel the movies that inspired the episode.

Now, a rarely used setting for an existing weapon fits the bill a little better - although it would be nice to see that setting used at least once again, against a different adversary, to justify its existence in the first place.

Yeah, but once the weapons ideas had been firmed-up, that wasn't going to happen. I file phaser proximity blasts with conquered Vulcanians, UESPA, shouting and smiling Spock etc.

 

[drt]

...has anyone ever done a breakdown of TOS VFX shots by effects house? I'm talking mainly space-based opticals: ship flybys, planets, weapons fire, etc.

I looked into it once regarding weapons fire.

Not surprisingly, in the first season several different effects houses were used (likely working relatively concurrently, so no time to compare notes), which is why everything was wildly inconsistent. I believe the footage of the eleven footer itself for "weapons firing angle" in the first season came from Howard Anderson, with the exception of The Alternative Factor, which I think was Film Effects of Hollywood.

The Corbomite Maneuver: Howard Anderson Company
Balance of Terror/Alternative Factor: Film Effects of Hollywood
Arena/Errand of Mercy: Westheimer Company (if online screencaps can be trusted, their "proximity phaser" in Errand seems to be slightly different from Film Effects version, it appears to be above the three lights on the bow of the saucer - I still need to verify this at some point; note the Trekplace link above says that Balance and Errand use the same shot, but accodring to Trekcore they're different)
Who Mourns for Adonais: Effects Unlimited (footage reused for The Apple, which was a Westheimer episode)
The Doomsday Machine: Cinema Research Corporation
The Changeling/Journey to Babel: Westheimer Company (reuse of Errand effect, but now a photon torpedo)
Obsession: Westheimer Company (iconic "Making of" phaser shot used for the rest of the series, I believe the eleven-footer footage was filmed by Film Effects, however)

Van Der Veer Photo Effects was the other optical company used, but none of their early season episode featured Enterprise firing weapons, they do get an honorable mention for The Tholian Web (although stock Westheimer footage was used for the phaser shots in that episode).

Use of these different effects houses is why the transporter and hand phaser effects are slightly different in various episodes as well.

 

[FormerLurker]

Which one came up with the 'obvious static frame under a screen-wide phaser flash' effect in the third season?

 

[Green Shirt]

Which one came up with the 'obvious static frame under a screen-wide phaser flash' effect in the third season?

If you are referring to the no beam green flash phaser hit, IIRC it was first used in Assignment:Earth.

 

[FormerLurker]

Yeah, that falls in line with budget constraints at the end of the season. But which effects house came up with it? I'm sure the actors had no idea what kind of effect would be used for each use of a phaser, and just went through similar motions to stage the shot each time.

 

[GSchnitzer]

Yeah, that falls in line with budget constraints at the end of the season. But which effects house came up with it? I'm sure the actors had no idea what kind of effect would be used for each use of a phaser, and just went through similar motions to stage the shot each time.

I think the first use of the green wash phaser effect is the second season's "A Piece of the Action"--episode 49 (Westheimer Company).