Humanity in the TNG era is more buggered than they let on

[Lance]

We keep getting told that humanity is in great shape in TNG.

You know. All that "We're over our worst excesses" and "Humanity has progressed from it's dark past" stuff.

I don't know, it just doesn't fit with the facts.

Even within the canon, we've got them allegedly in open war with the Cardies as recently as the 2350s, we've got Tasha Yar's planet having fallen into anarchy, we've got people like Kyle Riker walking out on his 15 year old son and leaving him with daddy issues, we've got the Picard brothers having their long-standing feud... you know, there are probably hundreds more occasions we can list off where we see how the society of the 24th century is just as f***ed as our own. And yet they keep spouting all this guff about how enlightened they've become. Kind of a contradiction.

And all of that is before we get into DS9 and VOY, which usually attempted to show the human flaws that TNG pretended not to.

Are the Feds running some kind of propoganda campaign? Have our Starfleet heroes are brainwashed to accept it hook, line and stinker? What's the big up on this?

 

[F. King Daniel]

I reconcile it as propaganda, which poor Picard and the 24th century Trekkers bought into completely. Perhaps some weirdo Federation President instituted a load of changes which screwed up a generation?

It did make for three fantastic subversions - Picard realizing he's no better than the people of Lily's era in First Contact, Henry Starling immediately owning Janeway in "Future's End" and escaping right after she waxes about people in her time, and Quark's line about humans becoming animals when their creature comforts are taken away in "The Siege of AR-558". That's the writers giving a big FU to Roddenberry's evolved humanity.

 

[T'Girl]

the society of the 24th century is just as f***ed as our own

Yes.

I reconcile it as propaganda, which poor Picard and the 24th century Trekkers bought into completely. Perhaps some weirdo Federation President instituted a load of changes which screwed up a generation?

Mine is a bit different. The "we work to better ourselves and Humanity" is the slogan of a mini-group subculture within greater Humanity, and it doesn't exist out in the Federation among the non-Human species.

Picard and Jake Sisko are adherents to this subculture's philosophy. The other Starfleet officers in the "hero groups" have no problem with the philosophy of this subculture in general, but aren't a part of the subculture.

The group's slogan is often use by Human politicians, and there is a minor political movement attached to it.

Part of the subculture philosophy is advocating the discontinuation of money (although none of them can seemingly explain how this would work). Picard is actually paid quite handsomely as a senior captain, but uses the stored value in his account for his own personal needs as little as possible. Mostly it just sits, plus he donates to charities and political parties that advance his ideas.

When Picard told Lily "you see, money no longer exists," he was avocating part of his philosophy, and not stating a Earth/Federation wide truth.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

24th century civilization obviously isn't as perfect as they let on, but compared to our own? Come on. On Earth at least there's no religious persecution, no poverty, and no territory wars between countries.

It's clear a lot of human colonies farther away from Earth like Ishara's are in bad shape and it's clear that as Quark observed once survival is threatened humanity acts just like humans today.

But it's also clear that all the wars referred to in the series were started by other nations invading Federation space. And also clear there's nowhere on Earth where people are starving to death or you can get arrested for being the wrong religion.

Yes, 24th century humans have not defeated human nature, but they have defeated our current social problems. I think that's closer to Roddenberry's original intent anyway.

 

[T'Girl]

But it's also clear that all the wars referred to in the series were started by other nations invading Federation space.

Not clear in the least, wars in TNG often seem to be over possession of disputed territories, and not solely because of the Federation is being invaded.

 

[Stoo]

24th century civilization obviously isn't as perfect as they let on, but compared to our own? Come on. On Earth at least there's no religious persecution, no poverty, and no territory wars between countries.

Yeah. I mean we can argue it's down to technological advances as much as enlighted philosopy. But, it's pretty obvious that 24th century earth has made huge amounts of social progress compared to our own.

 

[Memory Alpha]

24th century civilization obviously isn't as perfect as they let on, but compared to our own? Come on. On Earth at least there's no religious persecution, no poverty, and no territory wars between countries.

It's clear a lot of human colonies farther away from Earth like Ishara's are in bad shape and it's clear that as Quark observed once survival is threatened humanity acts just like humans today.

But it's also clear that all the wars referred to in the series were started by other nations invading Federation space. And also clear there's nowhere on Earth where people are starving to death or you can get arrested for being the wrong religion.

Yes, 24th century humans have not defeated human nature, but they have defeated our current social problems. I think that's closer to Roddenberry's original intent anyway.

Yeah, I tend toward this view, and I actually think they achieved a nice balance finally. Obviously, if society is too perfect, it's too boring. There are still problems, but I get that religion has declined to the point of being non-existent or else so personal as to be non-dogmatic (I think Picard talks about it in "Where Silence Has Lease"), and certainly that basic human needs are provided. There are no unemployment lines or a CEO making 400 times the average salary of his or her workforce.

Picard's attitude about it in the early seasons is a little off-putting, but Picard himself is a little off-putting as well. Still, it would be a little like one of us talking about witch trials or bills of attainder. We've left that in the dust, but now have other problems.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

When Picard told Lily "you see, money no longer exists," he was avocating part of his philosophy, and not stating a Earth/Federation wide truth.

Actually, Picard didn't literally say that. He said the acquisition of wealth is no longer a driving force. He didn't say it was no longer ANY force.

Although I agree, that whole scene was just Picard being his pompous, arrogant, lecturing self, as usual. He was talking to someone from the "primitive" past, after all. Stands to reason he'd feel a bit superior. And that would come across in his speechifying.

 

[T'Girl]

Picard said both lines in the same scene, my quotation was off.

LILY: How much did this thing cost?

PICARD: The economics of the future are somewhat different. ...You see, money doesn't exist in the twenty-fourth century.

LILY: No money! That means you don't get paid.

PICARD: The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives.

 

[Trekker4747]

Some may be taking the "humanity is perfect" angle a bit too far. Humanity obviiusly still has problems, and I don't think we can count against them ghe conflicts with other races since that adds in a new variable.

The idea is that by and large humanity is much better off than it was in the 20th/21st centuries. Biggest of all no poverty or suffering on Earth.

But, yeah, nothing is 100% and there's still issues.

Re: Tasha's colony, I wouldn't put that on the Federation, for all we know they wanted to be independent and without outside aide it fell.

And, frankly, one of my bigger problems with DS9 was abandoning the "better humanity" idea. Was it ridiculous? Maybe, but not any mord so than transpoters or warp, drive. The entire idea is that humanity has a brighter, more ideal, fiputure ahead of it rather destroying ourselves over pettiness like it seems we're about to do all of the time.

So, yeah, I like the idea of humanity getting past indivudual needs and working for all of society, that there's no poor, suffering or hunger. That war and conflict are avoided if at all possible.

But, hey space battles are kewl and it's so nifty see dark characters angst over bleakness and make morally dubious decisions. So screw a future of hope and exploration, I want to see 'splosions!

 

[Lance]

24th century civilization obviously isn't as perfect as they let on, but compared to our own? Come on. On Earth at least there's no religious persecution, no poverty, and no territory wars between countries.

It's clear a lot of human colonies farther away from Earth like Ishara's are in bad shape and it's clear that as Quark observed once survival is threatened humanity acts just like humans today.

But it's also clear that all the wars referred to in the series were started by other nations invading Federation space. And also clear there's nowhere on Earth where people are starving to death or you can get arrested for being the wrong religion.

Yes, 24th century humans have not defeated human nature, but they have defeated our current social problems. I think that's closer to Roddenberry's original intent anyway.

I'd be silly to argue that society, on Earth at least, isn't better. It's clear that it is in so many ways, at least outwardly.

However, it's that little bit about human nature that was the crux of what I meant. 24th century humans believe themselves to have overcome the frailties of their past, but there have been countless examples where we've seen them exhibit behaviour reverting to type. And if basic human nature is the same, then it indicates an ability for society itself to collapse back into itself. Hence, they're just as f***ed up as we are, they just channel it into a veneer of civility. Underneath the surface it wouldn't be impossible for things to deteriorate.

Really, even in TNG (heck, even in Roddenberry's early TNG), there are countless examples showing that our heroes, beneath the surface, have these same basic human character weaknesses as any contemporary man. They aren't that different to us, they just like to think that they are. It's more of a philosophical difference than an actual one.

It seems to me that's really the message in something like DS9:"Paradise Lost". That what a lot of Earth's citizens in the 24th century claim about their society is just a pretence; and that it would only take one dickwad to declare martial law for everybody to start looking after number one again and society to collapse back to an earlier, less wholesome state. One more like our own...

 

[wulfio]

Roddenberry was inspired by the Ubermensch. The Berman writers either had no intent on continuing that idea, or they just didn't get it. That pretty much sums it up.

 

[Trekker4747]

24th century civilization obviously isn't as perfect as they let on, but compared to our own? Come on. On Earth at least there's no religious persecution, no poverty, and no territory wars between countries.

It's clear a lot of human colonies farther away from Earth like Ishara's are in bad shape and it's clear that as Quark observed once survival is threatened humanity acts just like humans today.

But it's also clear that all the wars referred to in the series were started by other nations invading Federation space. And also clear there's nowhere on Earth where people are starving to death or you can get arrested for being the wrong religion.

Yes, 24th century humans have not defeated human nature, but they have defeated our current social problems. I think that's closer to Roddenberry's original intent anyway.

I'd be silly to argue that society, on Earth at least, isn't better. It's clear that it is in so many ways, at least outwardly.

However, it's that little bit about human nature that was the crux of what I meant. 24th century humans believe themselves to have overcome the frailties of their past, but there have been countless examples where we've seen them exhibit behaviour reverting to type. And if basic human nature is the same, then it indicates an ability for society itself to collapse back into itself. Hence, they're just as f***ed up as we are, they just channel it into a veneer of civility. Underneath the surface it wouldn't be impossible for things to deteriorate.

Really, even in TNG (heck, even in Roddenberry's early TNG), there are countless examples showing that our heroes, beneath the surface, have these same basic human character weaknesses as any contemporary man. They aren't that different to us, they just like to think that they are. It's more of a philosophical difference than an actual one.

It seems to me that's really the message in something like DS9:"Paradise Lost". That what a lot of Earth's citizens in the 24th century claim about their society is just a pretence; and that it would only take one dickwad to declare martial law for everybody to start looking after number one again and society to collapse back to an earlier, less wholesome state. One more like our own...

But the idea is still that. on the whole, humans in the 24thC are more civilized and "evolved" than their 20th century counterparts. And by many measures, they are! Just as our society today is more evolved and arguably peaceful than our 17th century counterparts.

We'd talk to that 17th century person and he'd be all like, "You mean your rulers don't rape and pillage the land, taxing their civilians for all they can and live like kinds on a mountaintop?"

And we'd be like, "No, we have a society where we choose who rules us and, by and large they work for us."

The 24c humans were, fairly rightfully critical of 20th century humans, the way they behaved and the type of society they led. They had 3 major, global, wars in the span of 150 years or so. The last one decimating society.

Humans of the 20th century were, largely driven by greed and people lived in sickness and poverty even though society had the means to make that not the case. By the 24c no one is starving and no one is homeless. People aren't struggling at a job to just keep a roof over their head, the heat on, and food in their stomachs. People are largely doing what they want to do and have all of their needs met by some method other than money. (I've my own theories on how it all works and also explains cases like why there's still waiters, farm hands, and other occupations we've seen in the 24c.)

Humans aren't going to cause wars over borders, resources, or precious materials. They're actively doing whatever they can to prevent war but, sometimes the other side isn't so willing to not go to war and humans are forced to defend themselves in some capacity. But we can largely be assured humans aren't starting wars and are just fighting in self-defense and to preserve their borders. Humans are peaceful and working to further their knowledge of the universe.

I'd say on the whole, compared to human society today, it's not too much of stretch to say humans of the 24c are peaceful and more evolved. Yeah, there's some stray hairs, the odd human or two who steps out of what's the status quo, and stripped of their comforts and backed into a corner human savagery comes back out. But, in the end, they're regretful that it came to that.

And there's even the occasional human out there actively being a human more like what we'd recognize today. They're doing their thing all for them. That's human nature, not everyone is the same.

Still, I'd say the 24c humans are better than us.

 

[Mr. Data]

Humanity without money would really not work at all.

And some of the things in TNG suggest members of the Enterprise get paid.

I'm confused.

 

[2takesfrakes]

TNG wants to suggest that Humanity itself has actually evolved. That physically, mentally, 24th Century Humans are superior to 20th Century Human's, at least. So far, so good. But, considering how TOS seems to represent its people as basically not much different from 20th Century People, then that's 75 years of Natural Selection at work, here. And I'd be curious as to how that was arrived at, in such a short space of time. Is TNG trying to suggest that the people of Earth in the 24th Century are Humans in name only? Is this being controlled, at all? With all of the KHAN warnings in STAR TREK, I mean ... is there some umbrella organisation overseeing all of this genetic manipulation? Or is it just throw shit at the wall and see what sticks?

 

[T'Girl]

The idea is that by and large humanity is much better off than it was in the 20th/21st centuries. Biggest of all no poverty or suffering on Earth.

It would difficult to argue that the people in the future don't possess material comforts, but that doesn't make them superior/more evolved than people today. They just have more "stuff."

Despite what a few character said, the series shows that the people really haven't changed.

Humans still have lawyers, courts, jails, penal colonies, this mean they still have crime.

Humans didn't get rid of warfare, they just moved it off the homeworld.

Humans still have illness, disease, plagues and death from medical causes.

However, three hundred years from now Humans have learned to produce food, yeah.

they just channel it into a veneer of civility ...

Maybe this is what civilization really is, willingness to play a little game of pretend, a game that comes with rules.

Roddenberry was inspired by the Ubermensch

The other people who created and produced the show apparently weren't.

The 24c humans were, fairly rightfully critical of 20th century humans ...

No the 24th century people behaved horribly. Compare their treatment to the way Kirk treated Lincoln, full honors, dress uniforms, tour of the bridge.

the way they behaved and the type of society they led. They had 3 major, global, wars in the span of 150 years or so.

From their ages all three would have been too young to have seen the first two world wars, if they hadn't died in the eighties would still likely have been dead by the time of the third. Their fault how?

By the 24c ...

People were living on the shoulders of those people who came before them, going back through the centuries. The people in the 24th century should have shown gratitude

People are largely doing what they want to do and have all of their needs met by some method other than money.

There's plenty of indications that Humans and others in the Federation buy and sell things using money.

Humans aren't going to cause wars over borders ...

We seen more than a few border wars, the Federation and the Cardassians fought for years over where a border would be established.

Still, I'd say the 24c humans are better than us.

Better? No, they're just us in the future.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I definitely wouldn't say the 24th century humans are better. There are too many similarities to situations and people of today.

As someone mentioned earlier, it's just 'us' - the 20th/21st century human race - in the 24th century.

 

[wulfio]

The other people who created and produced the show apparently weren't.

Did you bother reading my entire post or just want to cherry pick?

 

[Stoo]

Humans still have lawyers, courts, jails, penal colonies, this mean they still have crime.

Humans still have illness, disease, plagues and death from medical causes.

Rather less of both, on earth at least. Much less need for crime when no-one needs to steal for a living, and when there are no gangs or mafias to join.

And so many health issues can be waved away with some gadget or a transporter biofilter. I suppose there's always the danger of some new alien contagian, but no-one is desparately ill from drinking polluted water.

re: warfare, however much human society approves, we still have to account for non-humans. There don't seem to be any major human v human wars going on.

 

[T'Girl]

Did you bother reading my entire post or just want to cherry pick?

Well of course I read the whole thing, the point is Roddenberry wasn't "Star Trek" with lesser people not following he ideas, Roddenberry was just one of many who created and produced the show. The fact that the majority of TPTB ignored the idea of the Nazi-like Ubermensch concept made for a better show, and personally I'm glad the didn't take the show any futher than they did down that particular road.