Fantastic Four reboot-- Casting, Rumors, Pix, ect;

[theenglish]

The bridge scene is what did my head in.

They all #### up royally causing a monumental disaster, barely zero summing it, yet somehow the press calls them heroes and not rampaging monsters.

For me it was the applause from the crowd. The rest of the movie was the FF having to clean up their own mistakes and then taking credit for saving the city/world. They may as well have been BP cleaning up their oil disaster.

Honestly, I am hard pressed about whether the film we got or the nineties film was worse.

The whole point of the FF is that you have a dysfunctional family dynamic superimposed on fantastic super-powered action. The Iron Man movies captured this quite well, but the FF needs to ramp up the fantasy without diminishing the family dynamic.

Farscape did the Fantastic Four very well.

 

[Christopher]

The bridge scene is what did my head in.

They all #### up royally causing a monumental disaster, barely zero summing it, yet somehow the press calls them heroes and not rampaging monsters.

For me it was the applause from the crowd. The rest of the movie was the FF having to clean up their own mistakes and then taking credit for saving the city/world. They may as well have been BP cleaning up their oil disaster.

Actually the bridge scene is my favorite part of the first film, because it's the one part where they're actually saving other people rather than just themselves. What's really unforgivable is the climax. Victor is just going after the four of them; he's not trying to take over the world or blow up the city, just to kill the Four themselves. And yet they're willing to have Johnny stop him with a nova blast which might ignite the Earth's atmosphere. So they're willing to risk the destruction of the entire world to save their own lives. That's literally the opposite of what superheroes do.

The whole point of the FF is that you have a dysfunctional family dynamic superimposed on fantastic super-powered action. The Iron Man movies captured this quite well, but the FF needs to ramp up the fantasy without diminishing the family dynamic.

Well, the precedent we have for Josh Trank's work is Chronicle. It portrayed superpowers in a very fanciful and larger-than-life way, but juxtaposed against naturalistic performances, verite cinematography, and extremely dysfunctional family dynamics. I'm not sure that it's a good fit for the FF tonally, but given that precedent, there's no reason to expect the fantasy elements to be toned down.

 

[theenglish]

The bridge scene is what did my head in.

They all #### up royally causing a monumental disaster, barely zero summing it, yet somehow the press calls them heroes and not rampaging monsters.

For me it was the applause from the crowd. The rest of the movie was the FF having to clean up their own mistakes and then taking credit for saving the city/world. They may as well have been BP cleaning up their oil disaster.

Actually the bridge scene is my favorite part of the first film, because it's the one part where they're actually saving other people rather than just themselves. What's really unforgivable is the climax. Victor is just going after the four of them; he's not trying to take over the world or blow up the city, just to kill the Four themselves. And yet they're willing to have Johnny stop him with a nova blast which might ignite the Earth's atmosphere. So they're willing to risk the destruction of the entire world to save their own lives. That's literally the opposite of what superheroes do.

I agree that the bridge scene was the best, but they caused the accident! It was great that they saved everyone, but then they stand around to soak up the applause. Am I misremembering this scene?

Maybe that was foreshadowing the evil people they become risking the world to save themselves.

 

[Skywalker]

Turns out Doom was the hero all along.

 

[Christopher]

^Yup, that's what I've been saying for years. The FF were basically the villains of their own movie. At least in Rise of the Silver Surfer they actually got to save other people from problems they didn't cause.

 

[theenglish]

^Yup, that's what I've been saying for years. The FF were basically the villains of their own movie. At least in Rise of the Silver Surfer they actually got to save other people from problems they didn't cause.

Didn't Doom have a plan for something evil other than revenge against Reed for taking his girl? I can't recall and any online synopses are vague on the subject.

 

[Christopher]

Didn't Doom have a plan for something evil other than revenge against Reed for taking his girl? I can't recall and any online synopses are vague on the subject.

I don't think the movie itself was any less vague. Sure, it was implicit that Victor wasn't going to use his new superpowers for good, but they never established anything specific, never showed him making any actual attempt to endanger or conquer the public. So the Four weren't fighting to save anyone but themselves.

This is the problem with many supehero movies. Superhero stories are primarily about the protagonists saving innocent people. But most standard movie plots are about protagonists saving themselves or pursuing personal vendettas. And too many superhero movies follow conventional movie story rules rather than superhero story rules, and thus you get movies about "heroes" motivated more by protecting themselves or avenging themselves against the villains rather than saving other people who are endangered by the villains.

 

[theenglish]

This is the problem with many supehero movies. Superhero stories are primarily about the protagonists saving innocent people. But most standard movie plots are about protagonists saving themselves or pursuing personal vendettas. And too many superhero movies follow conventional movie story rules rather than superhero story rules, and thus you get movies about "heroes" motivated more by protecting themselves or avenging themselves against the villains rather than saving other people who are endangered by the villains.

I don't really agree with this, at least with most of the films from the last ten or fifteen years. From Marvel, I can think of The Incredible Hulk for example but this was not Banner's fault. The end of The Dark Knight was principally about the Joker targeting Batman, but that was the thematic point of the movie (hero that you deserve and all that). Can you provide an example beyond FF?

 

[Christopher]

^I agree it's not as common in the past decade, but I wasn't limiting my observation to those films. And I don't have time right now to search through the synopses of a bunch of old superhero films to remind myself of their plots.

 

[theenglish]

^I agree it's not as common in the past decade, but I wasn't limiting my observation to those films. And I don't have time right now to search through the synopses of a bunch of old superhero films to remind myself of their plots.

LOL--no worries. It was just that the way you wrote it, your seemed to have some specific examples in mind.

 

[Christopher]

^I'm sure I did at some point in the past, but there have just been so many superhero movies in recent years that it's harder to pick out specific memories of the older ones.

 

[Tosk]

Not even a hint at which ones?

Superman - Saving others.
Sueprman II - Saving the world from Zod's rule.
Superman II - Stopping Webster's plot to control the world's oil supply.
Superman IV - Ridding the world of nukes.
Supergirl - Must get back the energy source that powers Argo City.
Batman - Stopping Joker's chemical assault on Gotham.
Batman Returns - Stopping the circus gang and its corrupt mayoral candidate leader from taking over Gotham.
Batman Forever and "& Robin" I don't remember well. They could be the kind you mentioned.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Mr Freeze was going to turn Gotham into a tundra. Batman used Wanye Industries satellites to redirect sunlight from the other side of the planet to thaw all the people trapped in ice.

&

Riddler was draining brain energy with tv decoders. Batman had to blow his collecting antenna?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Arguably the plot of Thor (the stakes were at least more personal than most).

Probably Punisher, but he isn't a hero.

Here are some movies I don't know or don't remember the stakes:

Daredevil
Elektra
Catwoman
Green Lantern
Ghost Rider
Ghost Rider: Spirits of Vengeance

 

[CorporalCaptain]

This is the problem with many supehero movies. Superhero stories are primarily about the protagonists saving innocent people. But most standard movie plots are about protagonists saving themselves or pursuing personal vendettas. And too many superhero movies follow conventional movie story rules rather than superhero story rules, and thus you get movies about "heroes" motivated more by protecting themselves or avenging themselves against the villains rather than saving other people who are endangered by the villains.

I don't really agree with this, at least with most of the films from the last ten or fifteen years. From Marvel, I can think of The Incredible Hulk for example but this was not Banner's fault. The end of The Dark Knight was principally about the Joker targeting Batman, but that was the thematic point of the movie (hero that you deserve and all that). Can you provide an example beyond FF?

Gosh, TDK was most certainly about Batman saving Gotham from arch-villains.

Both Captain America movies were about Cap saving innocents.

The lesson Thor learned in his first movie was specifically to place the needs of others before his own wants.

What else was Spider-Man 2, but Spidey taking the hard path to help others?

 

[The Old Mixer]

Thor was also about saving the Frost Giants...pretty noble to save ones enemies.

 

[Tosk]

Probably Punisher, but he isn't a hero.

He punishes evil-doers.

Here are some movies I don't know or don't remember the stakes:

Daredevil
Elektra
Catwoman
Green Lantern
Ghost Rider
Ghost Rider: Spirits of Vengeance

Daredevil beats up criminals at night, fights Bullseye because he killed Elektra, then beats up Kingpin and taunts him when the cops show up to arrest him for his involvement in a murder. (Director's Cut only.) He protects the city, basically. Elektra protected a father and daughter from assassins. Catwoman...fought Sharon Stone because of reasons. Green Lantern fought fear-cloud-villain Parallax so that it didn't absorb(?) the people of Earth and elsewhere. Ghost Rider had to take down Blackheart because he was going to get 1000 souls which would make him powerful and...I dunno. Be more evil. Ghost Rider 2...no idea. I saw it and still have no idea.

 

[Christopher]

Batman - Stopping Joker's chemical assault on Gotham.

Actually that's one of the prime examples of filmmakers imposing the stock revenge-narrative plot on a superhero movie. They made the Joker the murderer of Bruce's parents and had him covet and kidnap Bruce's girlfriend, which made Batman's defeat of the Joker a personal revenge story rather than simply a story of an altruistic protagonist saving lives. Plus they had Batman kill the Joker, with a fall off a high building, no less, which is very much a stock movie ending. The majority of superhero movies end with the villain dying, even though that isn't how superheroes generally work in comics, because it is what studios and audiences expect in movies.

 

[Tosk]

Batman - Stopping Joker's chemical assault on Gotham.

Actually that's one of the prime examples of filmmakers imposing the stock revenge-narrative plot on a superhero movie. They made the Joker the murderer of Bruce's parents and had him covet and kidnap Bruce's girlfriend, which made Batman's defeat of the Joker a personal revenge story rather than simply a story of an altruistic protagonist saving lives.

Yes, but it's not all Batman did. He did perform "hero" duties, even while pursuing some form of potential revenge.

Plus they had Batman kill the Joker, with a fall off a high building, no less, which is very much a stock movie ending.

He causes the Joker to end up in a perilous situation...but he only "sort of" kills him. There's no reason to believe Batman definitely knew what would happen when he tried to stop him from escaping. But yeah, Joker is dead thanks to Batman's actions. And his own.

The majority of superhero movies end with the villain dying, even though that isn't how superheroes generally work in comics, because it is what studios and audiences expect in movies.

I'm not a big fan of it either, but at least some buck the trend. Superman, Daredevil, almost all the X-Men movies, Spidey 3, Amazing Spidey 1 and 2, Thor, Cap 1 and 2, Avengers, Fantastic Four all keep their villains alive. (Or one of two in the case of Spidey 3, and Amazing Spidey 2.)

 

[Christopher]

^I never said that the revenge-narrative aspects were mutually exclusive of the crimefighting/rescuing aspects, since a lot of revenge-driven movie heroes happen to save innocents from the villains' plans. I said that the movies were made to conform to standard action-movie formulas and expectations.