Space Marines?

[WRStone]

In keeping with the notion that TOS was, in many ways derivative of 17th- and 18th-century naval vessels, I've always wondered if some of the guys we saw in red were space marines.

I mean the galaxy's a dangerous place. The mere fact that the ship was successfully commandeered by an outright military force in "Day of the Dove" makes it appropriate to have a few marines aboard.

I wouldn't think it many ... a couple of squads with a non-com over them reporting to a 2nd Lieutenant seems about right. Not an invasion force, but a purely military unit to deal with Klingons and other such heavies.

I'm entirely aware that such a notion would probably have left GR apoplectic. But face facts: when your Captain gets kidnapped or you're beaming down to collect dangerous mind-controlling aliens that attach to your back, who you gonna call?

Frakking Space Marines, that's who.

By the way, I've always hated the term "Space Marine" or "Marine" when speaking of a non-maritime military force. I suggest one of the following instead.

I kind of like "Astrine," but the obvious jokes probably put that out of the running. Otherwise, Sideral, just because it sounds futuristic somehow, and not military at all. You could build them up as akin to ninja, but worse.

 

[BillJ]

Stay with what works: marine or space marine.

 

[Gassy Man]

I never felt the need for space marines or whatever.

 

[BillJ]

I never felt the need for space marines or whatever.

I don't know? I always found security on the Enterprise rather lacking.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The redshirts are not marines. They are starship security guards. Whatever one thinks of their abilities, I would think that Starfleet would have to have an entirely separate division dedicated to ground combat. You can't just take any old redshirt and put them on the front lines...that would be like taking a security guard at Walmart and sending them to Afghanistan. There must always be specialization.

I firmly believe that Starfleet has Marines, just not the redshirts.

 

[J.T.B.]

By the way, I've always hated the term "Space Marine" or "Marine" when speaking of a non-maritime military force.

I think a lot of people don't make the maritime connection today; by that time the word would have been around so long it would matter even less. The word "fleet" is also nautical and derives from a word for floating on water, but they have "Starfleet."

"Astrene" and "Stelline" sound like women's names from an earlier generation.

The redshirts are not marines. They are starship security guards. Whatever one thinks of their abilities, I would think that Starfleet would have to have an entirely separate division dedicated to ground combat. You can't just take any old redshirt and put them on the front lines...that would be like taking a security guard at Walmart and sending them to Afghanistan. There must always be specialization.

The redshirt security force seems to be Starfleet's equivalent of marines in the original sense of soldiers who serve aboard ships. Whether there would also be an equivalent to the US Marine Corps, a large and independent or semi-independent service, is an open question without much to go on. For all we know the Federation may not engage in large scale ground combat.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ The Federation does have ground troops. We've heard about them many times, mostly in DS9.

What these troops are actually CALLED, though, is anybody's guess; I prefer to simply call them Starfleet Marines, because it is - IMHO - the most efficient term, and it just sounds good.

 

[Silvercrest]

By the way, I've always hated the term "Space Marine" or "Marine" when speaking of a non-maritime military force. I suggest one of the following instead.

To be fair, they'd still be stationed on a "ship", that makes "voyages", and which occasionally "docks". Ya just can't escape the maritime influence.

Anybody ever read Rip Foster Rides the Gray Planet by Blake Savage (Hal Goodwin)? (It went by a couple of other titles as well.) The book featured the adventures of "Planeteers", soldiers who were stationed with a spacegoing navy but whose duties were generally planetside. It appeared the author was consciously avoiding calling them marines, but it's funny because he stayed closer to the maritime traditions in other ways.

The most notable case is his use of "boat" for what we would call a shuttle. It's perfectly logical that an auxiliary craft for a "ship" would be a "boat", but for some reason I don't think the term ever took off.

 

[Gassy Man]

I preferred TOS's original view of things -- Starfleet fought defensive battles. Space combat was not whizzing about like jet fighters but large ships firing relatively few but precise shots. Personnel carried weapons that allowed one person to potentially vaporize whole companies of enemy soldiers or worse if it was a necessity, but even then, they always had a non-lethal option. The idea was they had superior firepower but tried to avoid using it. In this sense, specialized troops or Marines were not necessary. As the show continued and in the various sequels and so forth, things got closer and closer to a more contemporary view of the armed forces, which always seem regressive. But I thought the original vision seemed the most palatable and the most plausible. It was one of the things that made TOS lean more toward harder sci-fi.

 

[Wingsley]

I started a thread about five years ago, based on a similar conjecture. My supposition was that Starfleet made provisions for a subsidiary organization called StarFIREs (Star Fleet Itinerant Regiments and Expeditions); this organization would be like part-Marines ("ground troops"), part-Navy SeaBees, part-PeaceCorps, and part-Jaques Cousteau's Calypso. It would basically be a non-naval arm of Starfleet, organized for contingencies such as long-term planetary surveys, colony/base defense/security, construction of installations, and in times of military confrontation, "ground troops". It is possible that the young Lt. James T. Kirk was assigned to survey the planet Neural ("A Private Little War") and in doing so became a StarFIRE officer before resuming his naval duties in deep space.

I know the term "StarFIRE" is an acquired taste. Still, I was a tad surprised and disappointed when the very mention of that name was virtually cyber-booed in that thread. There was an alternative name suggested: StarCorps. I could live with that.

 

[EnsignTOS]

I'm pretty sure it's naval based. Not Marines.

 

[SPCTRE]

< in before MACOs are brought up >

 

[Push The Button]

< in before MACOs are brought up >

Yes, what exactly were the MACOs, if not Marines?

 

[Commishsleer]

I preferred TOS's original view of things -- Starfleet fought defensive battles. Space combat was not whizzing about like jet fighters but large ships firing relatively few but precise shots. Personnel carried weapons that allowed one person to potentially vaporize whole companies of enemy soldiers or worse if it was a necessity, but even then, they always had a non-lethal option. The idea was they had superior firepower but tried to avoid using it. In this sense, specialized troops or Marines were not necessary. As the show continued and in the various sequels and so forth, things got closer and closer to a more contemporary view of the armed forces, which always seem regressive. But I thought the original vision seemed the most palatable and the most plausible. It was one of the things that made TOS lean more toward harder sci-fi.

Yes I agree.
Really what use are ground troops except in hostage-type situations when a ship like the Enterprise could vapourise the surface of a planet?
You might want a SWAT type team though - Space Weapons and Tactics.

 

[HIjol]

Space Infantry.

Although, if they were "Marines" in "Aliens", that is good enough for me!

 

[Timo]

Yes, what exactly were the MACOs, if not Marines?

Army Rangers, perhaps? Remember that it was highly unusual to have them aboard Starfleet ships; Forrest even thought there might be some interservices friction between them and Archer.

Say, UE Starfleet might not have its own SEALs, so Rangers are embarked instead. Marines - the non-specialized infantrymen who need to move in battalion formations in armored convoys under air cover in order to get anything done - probably just wouldn't meet the mission parameters, no matter what their name in the 2150s.

By the time of the integrated UFP Starfleet, one might be hard pressed to distinguish between the various redshirted combat specialists. Some might be mall guards (although probably not); others might be badass police officers; others still might be infantrymen, part-time or full time; and some would be special forces, capable of achieving more destruction than a starship or prying out more intel than a starship's sensors if properly let loose.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

^ The Federation does have ground troops. We've heard about them many times, mostly in DS9.

Yes, but do we know the scale? Are they fielding divisions? Corps? I'm not too familiar with that part of the series, but it seemed like smaller units to me.

Anybody ever read Rip Foster Rides the Gray Planet by Blake Savage (Hal Goodwin)? (It went by a couple of other titles as well.) The book featured the adventures of "Planeteers", soldiers who were stationed with a spacegoing navy but whose duties were generally planetside. It appeared the author was consciously avoiding calling them marines, but it's funny because he stayed closer to the maritime traditions in other ways.

Yeah, that was a good yarn, I always wished there was a follow-up. IIRC there was kind of a rivalry between the Planeteers and the fleet people.

Robert Heinlein was another early example; in 1948's Space Cadet he just called them "space marines," with the Interplanetary Patrol taking the navy role, minus any enlisted personnel. In Starship Troopers, he used "navy" for the space force, but called the "marines" the "mobile infantry."

The most notable case is his use of "boat" for what we would call a shuttle. It's perfectly logical that an auxiliary craft for a "ship" would be a "boat", but for some reason I don't think the term ever took off.

Yeah, the "Tom Corbett, Space Cadet" books used "boat" too, as did Starship Troopers. In Space Cadet Heinlein called the spacecraft-carried-aboard-a-bigger-spacecraft "jeeps."

 

[Silvercrest]

I've read Starship Troopers but managed to overlook that. Haven't read the others. Perhaps it was more widespread than I thought.

And yes, there was some serious inter-service rivalry. Exactly like you'd get between Navy and Marines.

 

[Marsden]

Well, Jim did say they were "a combined service" so there probably isn't a seperate Marine Corp anymore, whatever name they would use.

So saying Security Guards maybe = to Marine but an archaic nomenclature like we wouldn't call infantry grenadiers or calvery dragoons. Or maybe they aren't good examples, but Marine is probably seen as "quaint"

 

[Mysterion]

Marine out of a sense raditin if for no other reason.

Also, IMO, they should be known as the United Federation Marine Corps (UFMC) and NOT "Starfleet Marines" which is just silly.